62 ответов в этой теме

[In Exile]

I really like this feature of the Assassin's Creed franchise... and I don't see the harm in allowing people to continually replay individual sections of the game after they've completed the game itself even though the role-play aspects would be lost at that point - i.e. the decisions made during the replay would have no impact on anything.  Such a feature would allow players to explore previously "unchosen' bits of dialogue "just for the heck of it" without having to start a new save to "hijack" an old one.  As such, I don't think it would be all that complex a feature to set up.  Of course, they could complicate the feature by allowing various "cheats" during a replay (similar to AC), but I think it would still be worthwhile even without that.

 

While creating saves before each mission might work well for ME1 on PC... it wasn't a viable thing on the Xbox 360; where there was a 10 save maximum; and when you load that same character as an NG+ game, you are still working with that same 10 save maximum (that is, you had to overwrite your old saves in order to play.  ME2 had a higher maximum, but it still wasn't enough to enable saving before each mission with a view of being able to replay individual missions at will).  ME3 reduced the maximum number of saves from ME2 (I think it was 15).

 

(In ME1 - You can copy the entire character game save file over to a thumb drive; but you would have to physically do this to a new thumb drive after every mission since, within the game save file,  the maximum number of individual mission saves is still 10... at least I can't seem to be able to get more than that in the folder at any one point in time).

The harm is that the game has to manage how you lock in decisions. Does it allow you to farm approval points? If you are locked in to your original numbers, then why do you get to replay? If not, then how does the interaction work with other standalone content like companion conversations?

 

There are a lot of interdependencies in Bioware games and RPGs that make replaying slices at any time a problem. 

[AlanC9]

But you could just handwave most of those problems away. Anyone who'd actually use the proposed feature is, by definition, not interested in a coherent universe anymore. If he ends up farming credits, XP, approval, or anything else, who the hell cares? It's not our problem.

What is our problem is how we navigate the game if this feature is added. How do I avoid tripping over obsolete content? What's the proposed interface?

[In Exile]

But you could just handwave most of those problems away. Anyone who'd actually use the proposed feature is, by definition, not interested in a coherent universe anymore. If he ends up farming credits, XP, approval, or anything else, who the hell cares? It's not our problem.

What is our problem is how we navigate the game if this feature is added. How do I avoid tripping over obsolete content? What's the proposed interface?

It is the developers problem. It's the point DG and Alan used to make about supposedly "optional" features that impact on game balance. As developers, out of the box, they have to ensure that the game actually works with that design. If they allow for easy farming, that changes how they can approach e.g. approval. Look at DA:I/DA:O vs. DA2. They got rid of a concept like "rivalry" (by which I mean exclusive content for negative approval or differences of opinion) because it was content rarely viewed and confusing for gamers. 

 

I'm not sure we per se have an interface problem. I'm thinking back to ME or DA:I - we basically pick "story" or side quest stages from a map, which are then locked off. These missions just wouldn't be locked off. Perhaps it would be harder with a true open world, but Bioware typically does zones.  

[UpUpAway95]

The harm is that the game has to manage how you lock in decisions. Does it allow you to farm approval points? If you are locked in to your original numbers, then why do you get to replay? If not, then how does the interaction work with other standalone content like companion conversations?

 

There are a lot of interdependencies in Bioware games and RPGs that make replaying slices at any time a problem. 

 

I am proposing that your original choices are locked in because the replay option happens AFTER you've completed the entire game (main campaign).  It would be a "just for the heck of it" option to go back in an replay a particular combat sequence you thought was a lot of fun, or a party you thought was great, or to just decide to take the "other" options that were available to you in a particular convo... just to see what might have been said in that moment... not to affect any other consequence in the game and not to allow the "farming" of any points.  After the game is completed and if, as in AC, saving is disabled during the replay and the replay mode cancels out automatically at the end of each mission sequence, nothing would affect how the game was originally played out and saved.  Presumably, the game already keeps track of all those choice flags, so it can just reuse the flags it's already saved to generate the individual mission replay.

 

AC adds in some fun "cheats" - like a "god mode" that lasts only for the duration of the replay.  In AC4, they also had a cheat mode that changed some of the background language to more a stereotypical pirate lingo (just as a joke) or it turned all the player's crew into skeletons or turned the enemies into funny characters, etc.

 

I really don't see the harm in letting people replay parts of something they've already done after they've already finished the game.  By disabling saving during the replay, the replays would not be importable either to a subsequent game in the series or to an NG+ game.

[AlanC9]

@ In Exile: Meaning that the devs would feel obligated to prevent players from blowing up their experience with this feature, even though these players wouldn't care and therefore the devs shouldn't care? Yeah, you're probably right. But if this option only appears post-credits, I don't see the problem, except that we'd have to pick through the junk to play post-release DLC.

As for the interface, I'd find it intensely annoying to see, say, Grissom Academy still on the map if I've already evacuated it. OTOH, I suppose this could be toggleable.

[Lady Artifice]

I think the best solution here is a clear save system, and a reasonable amount of save slots available. I replayed the Citadel DLC by just reloading. But it would be good if they showed a picture view of our save so that their easier to keep track of.

 

Meaning that the devs would feel obligated to prevent players from blowing up their experience with this feature, even though these players wouldn't care and therefore the devs shouldn't care? Yeah, you're probably right.

As for the interface, I'd find it intensely annoying to see, say, Grissom Academy still on the map if I've already evacuated it. OTOH, I suppose this could be toggleable.

 

I don't think it's true that players who would take advantage of this wouldn't also complain about the fact that they can take advantage of this. Consider the people who injured dogmeat over and over again in FO4, only to heal him and gain approval with companions. A lot of them still criticized it as a faulty mechanic. We can say it's their own fault, but gamers like testing limits and seeing where the boundaries are. It doesn't mean they never want to see consequences for doing so.

[Matthias King]

I have never seen a game where you can replay certain missions within the same walkthrough except Assassin's Creed series (where these missions are memories and you can relive them as many times as you want). In that setting, it makes sense. In others? Nothing really comes to my mind.
The only solution to that is to create saves before each mission (that's what I did in ME1).

 

Saints Row

 

Saints Row 2

 

GTA IV: Ballad of Gay Tony

 

Red Dead Redemption

 

GTA V

 

Just to name five.
 

[Norhik Krios]

Time Travel - Problem solved. Now you can replay missions!

[Killroy]

Again, what's the issue with keeping a save before the mission you want to replay? 

Adding this feature would accomplish nothing that the player can't already do on their own. 

[Monk]

While leaving a save aside for playing certain contact should solve this, i don't see why we couldn't replay any certain part if the game's already completed.

 

I would think BioWare would be in special favor of this for seeing what and which mission types were rechosin to be replayed again and again.

[UpUpAway95]

Again, what's the issue with keeping a save before the mission you want to replay? 

Adding this feature would accomplish nothing that the player can't already do on their own. 

 

It's far more cumbersome for the player to hunt through a bunch of saves for one that starts a particular mission when they are all listed in the game folder on the Xbox by just the PCs name and a time... nothing that says this is the John Shepard that begins just before selecting a squad to leave ship on Feros.  For the 10 saves in the "in-game" list on the console if you want to be able to do your squad selection for that mission, you save while you're still on the Normandy... so you have 10 saves that say "Save # - Normandy Command Deck." in ME1 or "Save # - Normandy SR-2" in ME2 and ME3... Not very helpful if you're going back a year later and you just want to quickly replay a combat mission that you remember being fun... just for the heck of it.

[Spirit Vanguard]

I don't replay missions/quests personally. Loving certain ones is what makes me want to replay the game again even more. On that note I hope they keep the import-and-replay feature. That crap has spoiled me so bad, just like Borderlands, because I love being able to go through the game again with all my gear and skillz.

I don't really hold onto a lot of saves either, aside from important story moments where there's "no turning back" or something. So I could understand why some would want this feature, especially down the road. Having it might even encourage me to use it? Can't say.

[In Exile]

Saints Row

 

Saints Row 2

 

GTA IV: Ballad of Gay Tony

 

Red Dead Redemption

 

GTA V

 

Just to name five.
 

 

You mean 3. 

[BloodyMares]

Again, what's the issue with keeping a save before the mission you want to replay? 

Adding this feature would accomplish nothing that the player can't already do on their own. 

The only issue is consoles. It is a real trouble managing saves on consoles.

[Sanunes]

@ In Exile: Meaning that the devs would feel obligated to prevent players from blowing up their experience with this feature, even though these players wouldn't care and therefore the devs shouldn't care? Yeah, you're probably right. But if this option only appears post-credits, I don't see the problem, except that we'd have to pick through the junk to play post-release DLC.

As for the interface, I'd find it intensely annoying to see, say, Grissom Academy still on the map if I've already evacuated it. OTOH, I suppose this could be toggleable.

 

If it was just about farming I don't have a problem with that, the problem I have is the inter-dependencies between different areas of the game.  An instance would be the conversations with the Illusive Man, at four different points in the game you have to pick the right dialogue option to influence the final outcome at the end of the game.  If the idea is to explore different dialogue options that wouldn't work the way people would want, but if they implement it so it does make a change other outcomes during the game could be corrupted.  People seem to want to have more inter-connected parts of the game and if they do that I don't see a benefit if everything is locked into what you have done before if what is presented it based on your choices elsewhere in the game.

[UpUpAway95]

If it was just about farming I don't have a problem with that, the problem I have is the inter-dependencies between different areas of the game.  An instance would be the conversations with the Illusive Man, at four different points in the game you have to pick the right dialogue option to influence the final outcome at the end of the game.  If the idea is to explore different dialogue options that wouldn't work the way people would want, but if they implement it so it does make a change other outcomes during the game could be corrupted.  People seem to want to have more inter-connected parts of the game and if they do that I don't see a benefit if everything is locked into what you have done before if what is presented it based on your choices elsewhere in the game.

 

Again, benefit is to be able to quickly re-enter a portion of the game, say an individual romance cutscene, and choose the previously unchosen dialogue just to see what might have been said at that point.  As long as the player stays within the replay, playing continuously without exiting (and without the "benefit" of saving), the player could explore the subsequent consequences of that change in dialogue; that is, they could see if selecting the "no" line would instead cause the LI to become angry about being rejected at that moment and stomp off or if they'd agreed to come back at a better time... all without affecting the original game save (and any future potential import of that save).  Your game save would stay intact as you first intuitively played out that scene.  If the "consequence" that you're wanting to explore is much later in the game, you would probably be best advised to physically re-enter a save or potentially start a new game... but there are consequences to dialogue that are immediate... and you could explore those in replay a lot more efficiently than restarting a new game save each time.

 

Where a replay mode could really shine though is enabling the player to, say, quickly try a short later-game combat sequence at a different difficulty level or with different squadmates (to see how the banter differs) or using different weapons load outs.  They could even allow the player to temporarily change their PCs class in replay mode... since saving would be disabled and the game save is not being changed or affected.  If they wished, they could add in some "joking" elements - like having the enemies spawning looking like plushy toys.

[Killroy]

It's far more cumbersome for the player to hunt through a bunch of saves for one that starts a particular mission when they are all listed in the game folder on the Xbox by just the PCs name and a time... nothing that says this is the John Shepard that begins just before selecting a squad to leave ship on Feros.  For the 10 saves in the "in-game" list on the console if you want to be able to do your squad selection for that mission, you save while you're still on the Normandy... so you have 10 saves that say "Save # - Normandy Command Deck." in ME1 or "Save # - Normandy SR-2" in ME2 and ME3... Not very helpful if you're going back a year later and you just want to quickly replay a combat mission that you remember being fun... just for the heck of it.

 

Why is that worth the time, effort and money to develop a mission replay system? It wouldn't be a simple proposition since it would require it's own interface and to be segregated from the plot flag system, meaning every single mission requires additional coding. How could they possibly justify cutting other content to make this near-worthless system?

It's almost as silly as wanting co-op for single player. It only makes sense if you don't think about it at all. 

[Killroy]

The only issue is consoles. It is a real trouble managing saves on consoles.

 

I always managed.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

OP: On a PC that can be solved by having enough saved games. On a console I can see the problem, though.

 

I hope the PC has an unlimited number of saves and, like in ME3, a folder structure to keep the player characters separated. I prefer that the names of files and folders are more friendly for humans to use and have less randomized and abstract names. In-game renaming would be great.

 

Funny I have about 25 completed save files for ME1 on my Xbox 360 and some have had over 100 saves.

[AngryFrozenWater]

 

Funny I have about 25 completed save files for ME1 on my Xbox 360 and some have had over 100 saves.

Not sure about consoles. In ME1 I had folders with about 1000 saves. There was no limit for the PC there, as far as I know. Limits were imposed on the PC in later games for unknown reasons.

[straykat]

 

Funny I have about 25 completed save files for ME1 on my Xbox 360 and some have had over 100 saves.

 

 

On 360, I've never been able to get more than 10 per character. But there's no limit to characters or overall saves for me.

[AlanC9]

Why is that worth the time, effort and money to develop a mission replay system? It wouldn't be a simple proposition since it would require it's own interface and to be segregated from the plot flag system, meaning every single mission requires additional coding. How could they possibly justify cutting other content to make this near-worthless system?

I believe the proposal is to disable saving altogether as long as you're in repeat mode, so it's a change to the save system rather than individual plot flags.

[UpUpAway95]

 

Funny I have about 25 completed save files for ME1 on my Xbox 360 and some have had over 100 saves.

 

Straykat is correct... I'm referring to the limit on individual point saves within 1 character's file.  In order to go back to "replay" a specific individual mission, you would need to be able to generate a separate point save at the beginning of each mission (including each side mission).  On the Xbox 360 in ME1, you're limited to 10 saves and unless you save those after you actually have selected your team, the save will only be identified on the list as "Save # - NORMANDY COMMAND DECK (so you can't really tell which of those 10 saves starts right at the point in the game you're wanting to replay).  You can start a new character... requiring you to play through the entire game again from the beginning.  You can start an NG+ game with the same character, allowing you to keep whatever points and equipment you've already collected, but also requiring that you start the game again from the beginning.  With the NG+ game, you will also be limited to the same 10 point saves... so if, say, you used 5 of them in the first playthrough, you'll only have 5 left to do the NG+ game (unless, of course, you overwrite or delete the old game point saves).

 

I'm not sure where you're saying you have over 100 saves stored.  If you're talking about in-game point "individual mission" saves... I want to know how you're doing it.

[UpUpAway95]

I believe the proposal is to disable saving altogether as long as you're in repeat mode, so it's a change to the save system rather than individual plot flags.

 

Correct.

[UpUpAway95]

Why is that worth the time, effort and money to develop a mission replay system? It wouldn't be a simple proposition since it would require it's own interface and to be segregated from the plot flag system, meaning every single mission requires additional coding. How could they possibly justify cutting other content to make this near-worthless system?

It's almost as silly as wanting co-op for single player. It only makes sense if you don't think about it at all. 

 

You're certainly welcome to disagree whether or not it's worth it.  I would find it extremely worth it just for the time factor alone of having to find old saves at a mission point I want to "replay" to even just refresh my memory as to what sort of dialogue was available to me in that game... why I made a choice I did.  I've explained why I think it's worthwhile... if you wouldn't, that's your prerogative.  Bioware will, of course, decide for themselves either way.