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[Gervaise]

It is never entirely clear whether the Timeline given in World of Thedas is simply the Chantry driven human timeline.    However, based off that, there is a definite contradiction in some of the information we have been given.  The timeline definitely says that what the Imperium destroyed was Arlathan, which was a city besieged for many years by them before taking the action they did.    The Dalish stories about the destruction of Arlathan would seem to be referencing this event.    This was indeed a remnant of the empire as it once had been but it did seem to be a proper settlement of elves, far more populated than the Temple of Mythal in the south, since the Imperium were said to have acquired a vast elven slave workforce as a result.   There seem to have been large numbers of elves born post Veil, which would suggest they weren't just dropping into Uthenera for years on end and waking simply when disturbed.

 

Yet according to Solas and Abelas the true empire fell millennia before this when Solas raised the Veil and much of the magic built empire simply disintegrated.   This was when the gods were locked away and presumably stopped answering the prayers of their faithful.   Or was it.

 

When speaking about Arlathan, Merrill speaks of how their gods only stopped speaking to them after the fall of Arlathan.    There also a legend that speaks of those in uthenera being able to speak with them and direct them. even sending spirits to aid them.     So even if the real Evanuris were unable to communicate, do you suppose that their priesthood, in Uthenera, continued to communicate and give orders to the modern elves born after the raising of the Veil?    Fen'Harel could certainly communicate with his followers from the Fade, so why couldn't ancient elves dreamers do the same?    This would explain better why the Evanuris were remembered as benign teachers, locked away by evil Fen'Harel, because their priesthood were still faithful to them and maintaining that memory.  It would also explain the belief that if they kept trying to live up to the ideal given them by the priesthood, their gods would return.    It would also explain why the Imperium encountered such resistance from what were ordinary elves because in fact they were being directed and aided by the ancient priests, who likely even sent spirits against Tevinter.     Then when Arlathan was sunk, these ancients in Uthenera were killed, so explaining why the gods stopped answering prayers on the fall of Arlathan, when Solas had actually locked them away so long before.  

 

Also, whilst I wouldn't necessarily set much store by anything a demon tells you, Imshael seemed to suggest that what Tevinter destroyed was Arlathan, even if only a shadow of its former self.   

 

Any ideas on this?

[Zero]

I believe the Arlathan destroyed in the legends was much like Vir Dirthara. Some fade-like place that was destroyed when Eggman put the Veil in place. Maybe Thedosian Arlathan, the one later destroyed by the Vints, is what remained of that original Arlathan?

[Dai Grepher]

According to some codex, the empire of Elvhenan stretched over Thedas like a sprawled out cat. I read it not too long ago.

It is never entirely clear whether the Timeline given in World of Thedas is simply the Chantry driven human timeline.    However, based off that, there is a definite contradiction in some of the information we have been given.  The timeline definitely says that what the Imperium destroyed was Arlathan, which was a city besieged for many years by them before taking the action they did.

According to Abelas, the humans merely discovered the remnants of Arlathan after it was destroyed by the Fall, and possibly between wars among the various Elvhen who survived the Fall. Different evanuris factions perhaps. Abelas said the humans were like birds who picked the bones clean. So the Elvhen were already mostly destroyed by the time the humans came. Tevinter likely rose because of all the magic and knowledge found in the various Elvhen ruins, and the humans were likely led by the old gods to those locations. The old gods were able to survive the Fall because they were more advanced than the evanuris, and had superior knowledge of the Fade and the Real.

The Dalish stories about the destruction of Arlathan would seem to be referencing this event.

The Dalish stories are unreliable. Most of it could be persecution complex. They prefer to believe humans wronged them in order to avoid admitting responsibility. Sarel in the Dalish camp can say he's certain the elves played a role in their downfall; they probably didn't think the humans would retract their lady's gift so lightly.

This was indeed a remnant of the empire as it once had been but it did seem to be a proper settlement of elves, far more populated than the Temple of Mythal in the south, since the Imperium were said to have acquired a vast elven slave workforce as a result.

The elves could have simply scattered in all directions until running into humans who would enslave them.

There seem to have been large numbers of elves born post Veil, which would suggest they weren't just dropping into Uthenera for years on end and waking simply when disturbed.
 
Yet according to Solas and Abelas the true empire fell millennia before this when Solas raised the Veil and much of the magic built empire simply disintegrated.   This was when the gods were locked away and presumably stopped answering the prayers of their faithful.   Or was it.
 
When speaking about Arlathan, Merrill speaks of how their gods only stopped speaking to them after the fall of Arlathan.    There also a legend that speaks of those in uthenera being able to speak with them and direct them. even sending spirits to aid them.     So even if the real Evanuris were unable to communicate, do you suppose that their priesthood, in Uthenera, continued to communicate and give orders to the modern elves born after the raising of the Veil?

No. They were likely disconnected from the Fade and the Real, locked in their respective pocket dimensions.

Fen'Harel could certainly communicate with his followers from the Fade, so why couldn't ancient elves dreamers do the same?

Because Fen'Harel existed in the physical world and could cross the Veil in spirit to dreamwalk in the Fade. The evanuris are most likely in various Crossroads dimensions.

Solas is pretty much the same as the Forbidden Ones in terms of how they exist in the world.

This would explain better why the Evanuris were remembered as benign teachers, locked away by evil Fen'Harel, because their priesthood were still faithful to them and maintaining that memory.  It would also explain the belief that if they kept trying to live up to the ideal given them by the priesthood, their gods would return.

I don't remember any of that being stated. It is believed that the evanuris might still hear their prayers, which is why the Dalish still revere them. But I thought they were always thought to be able to influence the world somewhat, even if trapped. They pray to Elgar'nan for vengeance, Mythal for justice, Falon'Din for the dead, Andruil for hunting, Ghillinan when traveling (since the Halla lead them), etc.

It would also explain why the Imperium encountered such resistance from what were ordinary elves because in fact they were being directed and aided by the ancient priests, who likely even sent spirits against Tevinter.     Then when Arlathan was sunk, these ancients in Uthenera were killed, so explaining why the gods stopped answering prayers on the fall of Arlathan, when Solas had actually locked them away so long before.

It's also possible that the first humans to claim the remnants of Arlathan fabricated a story for themselves in order to make their scavenging seem like a legendary war instead. Dorian even recognizes the consequences of the idea that Tevinter was built on a lie.

Also, whilst I wouldn't necessarily set much store by anything a demon tells you, Imshael seemed to suggest that what Tevinter destroyed was Arlathan, even if only a shadow of its former self.

It's possible that the first humans met resistance from some of the major elvhen locations. But what really happened is unknown. Maybe the elvhen sank Arlathan themselves rather than allow the humans to steal all their knowledge and power. Abelas will do the same to the Vir Abelasan if he doesn't trust you.

[Zero]

The Dalish stories are unreliable. Most of it could be persecution complex. They prefer to believe humans wronged them in order to avoid admitting responsibility. Sarel in the Dalish camp can say he's certain the elves played a role in their downfall; they probably didn't think the humans would retract their lady's gift so lightly.
 

 

The Evanuris really existed. The elves were actually immortals. Fen'harel did actually sealed the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones. I fail to see the unreliability of that. And I can't blame the Dalish for being John Snows about Arlathan after thousands of years of repression and slavery under Tevinter. That the few myths they still preserve are remarkably accurate is really a feat, indeed.

 

Also, Sarel was talking about the Dales, not Arlathan (that we now know, thanks to Ameridan, the only fault of the Dalish was not to help the Orlesians in the second Blight).

[Dai Grepher]

The Evanuris really existed. The elves were actually immortals. Fen'harel did actually sealed the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones. I fail to see the unreliability of that.

I wrote unreliable, not that they were completely false. They are unreliable because they got most facts wrong, and tell their stories from a position of ignorance. The evanuris exist, but they aren't gods. The elvhen were ageless, not immortal. Fen'Harel did not trick them into being sealed away as the legend states, and Solas doesn't mention the Forgotten Ones so that can't be confirmed.

And I can't blame the Dalish for being John Snows about Arlathan after thousands of years of repression and slavery under Tevinter. That the few myths they still preserve are remarkably accurate is really a feat, indeed.

I never blamed they for not being able to pass on an accurate account, but what little accurate knowledge they have is not really due to them remembering and passing it down through the generations. Most of that was picked up from fragments they recovered from various ruins. Fragments they are still picking up even in the present era.

Also, Sarel was talking about the Dales, not Arlathan (that we now know, thanks to Ameridan, the only fault of the Dalish was not to help the Orlesians in the second Blight).

Yes but my point was that the Dalish are all too willing to make up whatever history seems most convenient for them, even when it comes to more recent history.

[Zero]

Well, the Orlesians are the same. They justify the attack on the Dales as an Exalted March against the pagans who destroyed a town, and the truth is that it was just a bid of Orlais and the Chantry to increase its own power and territory (as Mother Giselle indicates). 

[myahele]

I am pretty sure Arlathan forest probably contain Elvhen ruins since it seems as if all heavily forested regions in Thedas have Elves (Dalish or otherwise) in them. See: Brecilian Forest, Tirashan, Arbor Wilds and the Planacene Forest that contained Dirthamen's Temple.

 

Otherwise, I can see Arlathan being in a pocket dimension similar to Vir Dirthara. 

 

I doubt that the Arlathan that Tevinter built was THE original Arlathan; just a city that surviving elves named as Arlathan much like how people like to name cities after existing (older/ancient) cities in our world

[kimgoold]

I would like to think that the Black City in the Fade is Arlathan, if infact most ancient elven cities were partly in and out of the fade like the ruins of the elven library Vir'Dirthara. And if not Arlathan itself perhaps another important elven edifice of the Evanuris. Another possible site hasn't really been proposed yet for the ruins of Arlathan.

[Reznore57]

Arlathan is the Golden city imo.

Gods disappearing with the fall of Arlathan...gods being trapped in the Eternal city in the Beyond.

Besides the ancient elves were very fond of gold , the art for the temple of Mythal shows the idea was the temple was covered in gold thousands of years ago.

[Dai Grepher]

Well, the Orlesians are the same. They justify the attack on the Dales as an Exalted March against the pagans who destroyed a town, and the truth is that it was just a bid of Orlais and the Chantry to increase its own power and territory (as Mother Giselle indicates).

It was revealed by JoH and one of the side quests in the main game that the Exalted March against the Dales was due first to the elves choosing not to help defeat the Second Blight, and lastly to their atrocity at Red Crossing. Of course there was much conflict between those two events, but Inquisition implies that the Exalted March was justified.

[nightscrawl]

I don't have anything to add, but every time I see the title of this thread I think it says, "Where were you when Arlathan fell?" like it was one of those momentous historical things that everyone will always remember -- where were you when such-and-such happened?

[Gervaise]

I think some people are missing the point of what I'm getting at here.   I know that some of the Dalish legends are probably muddled and the original destruction of their empire at the raising of the Veil was mixed up with the later fall of the city in Arlathan Forest.   The thing is what Abelas refers to is clearly the first event; the civil war that may have been happening even before Solas raised the Veil and certainly likely happened after it when removal of their overlords after so many years of rule, led to chaos and anarchy.     The Neromenians probably did acquire a lot of their knowledge from these ruins and built their own settlements over them.  

 

The thing is that occurred nearly 2000 years before what occurred with the Tevinter Imperium.  So even if the real Arlathan was the Golden City in the Fade, there was still a considerable settlement of elves in Arlathan Forest.   The Imperium literally acquired thousands of slaves almost overnight and this helped the expansion of their empire thereafter.   This is what puzzles me.   You would not have that number of ancient elves surely?    Tevinter may well have wanted to believe they had destroyed the actual Arlathan because it reinforced their ideas of superiority over the rest of Thedas.     The elves though would have known the truth.   If they had been hanging around for 2000 years since their gods departed and this wasn't the city of Arlathan, then surely they would remember as much?   Why would they want to give the Tevinter the satisfaction of thinking they had destroyed their empire?    Instead of thinking,"You destroyed the greatest empire this land has ever seen", as Thelhen says to Celene, they could say, "You think you destroyed the greatest empire in the world but actually it was but a shadow of its former glory.   When our gods return they will wipe you off the face of the earth."

 

This is why I wonder if the elven priests were maintaining the fiction that their settlement still retained something of the glory of the empire.   Cut off from the outside word, the younger elves born since the Veil, who had never known the  empire in its true state, actually believed that what they were living in was the elven empire.   They prayed to their gods and were answered because it was the priests who spoke to them.    It was the priests who had originally ordered them to withdraw from the world to prevent their "pollution" by the lesser races outside.     When Tevinter started to infiltrate the forest, the priests ordered the city's defence and the destruction of anyone approaching it.     

 

Now it occurred to me that the ancient ones could have been the actual cause of the sinking of the city, to avoid its secrets being captured by Tevinter.   Some elves did flee through the Deep Roads, which is how they came to seek sanctuary in Cad'halash.   The interesting thing though is that there seem to have been a lot of elven relics evacuated to the dwarven Thaig.   This would suggest that the refugees were confident of a receiving sanctuary.  You don't take your most precious things with you into a possible hostile situation.   Yet if they had been cut off for 2000 years, how would they even know the dwarves were there?    Why would the dwarves have risked taking them in if they were total strangers to them?     So either they had kept up contact during that time or the ones who fled through the Deep Roads were indeed the ancient ones, who knew where to find the dwarven Thaig and could remind them of the ancient link between their people.    In which case they may even have deliberately ordered the modern elves to flee on the surface as a distraction, while they fled underground.

 

Tevinter may not have destroyed the real Arlathan but they clearly came into contact with something more than just a collection of ancient ruins, which could account for why both they and the modern elves thought they were responsible for the destruction of their empire.  

[In Exile]

I believe the Arlathan destroyed in the legends was much like Vir Dirthara. Some fade-like place that was destroyed when Eggman put the Veil in place. Maybe Thedosian Arlathan, the one later destroyed by the Vints, is what remained of that original Arlathan?

 

Slight correction - the library tells us that the ancient Elvhenan had a kind of duality: part in the Fade and part in Thedas, as the elves themselves had a similar nature. When Solas raised the Veil, it fundamentally split this apart. That shattered realms, and presumably that broke Arlathan. There were parts of it that survived in what became actual Thedas, so that was the Arlathan and Elvhenan that the Tevinters discovered. Which they then probably actually conquered. 

 

The source of confusion is that what Abelas sees as "Arlathan" and the old Elvhenan is not the same as what post-Veil people might see as the same - because he predates the whole thing.

 

There was likely a lot of infighting after the chaos that further shattered elvhen society. And PW tweeted at one point that much of Tevinter was build by humans filing down the ears on statues, so that I think gives us a sense of just how Tevinter society was built on the ruins of the Elvhen. 

The other thing is that we don't know what Abellas counts as a civil war. For all we know, a fight between the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones that broke their society pre-Veil is what he counts as a "civil" war, since it's basically just elves and their god kings and queens killing each other for political reasons. 

[Gervaise]

I think the war that Abelas speaks of was the one immediately preceding the raising of the Veil, although there could well have be chaos after it as well.   However, it is clear from the memories in the Library that the empire would have crumbled even without a war.   It was built on magic and when cut off from the Fade, there wasn't sufficient power to old it together.    Everything split apart.    However, it stands to reason that the greatest city in the empire might have been the one to survive in some form after it split from its Fade self.   Even a small part of Arlathan might appear equal to the greatest cities in the human world.  

[The Ascendant]

Where were the Forgotten Ones or the Forbidden Ones during this time period? With the Evanuris banished and the Dread Wolf MIA, one of them could fill the power vacuum and control the remaining Elves, or did they write off the Elves and turned their attention on the growing Human Imperium and influence them early to get a new position of power in this Post Veil world where Elves would be greatly weakened, but in doing so allow humans to thrive.

[Ghost Gal]

I'll bet Tevinter built Minrathus right on top of the crumbled ruins of Arlathan.

 

Makes sense for the new conquerers to build their new capital on top of the old capital as a way of saying, "All your base belongs to us now." Eventually the elves forgot.

[German Soldier]

Arlathan is in whatever  place the writers will say.

There is no reason to form theories and speculations since these kind of lore bits are disposed as the writers desire.

[The Ascendant]

I'll bet Tevinter built Minrathus right on top of the crumbled ruins of Arlathan.
 
Makes sense for the new conquerers to build their new capital on top of the old capital as a way of saying, "All your base belongs to us now." Eventually the elves forgot.

That would be epic to discover the long lost city was literally under our collective noses for centuries. Orlais did the same with Halamshiral so it isn't unimaginable that the Tevinters did the same.

[In Exile]

I think the war that Abelas speaks of was the one immediately preceding the raising of the Veil, although there could well have be chaos after it as well.   However, it is clear from the memories in the Library that the empire would have crumbled even without a war.   It was built on magic and when cut off from the Fade, there wasn't sufficient power to old it together.    Everything split apart.    However, it stands to reason that the greatest city in the empire might have been the one to survive in some form after it split from its Fade self.   Even a small part of Arlathan might appear equal to the greatest cities in the human world.  

 

We don't know if Arlathan was actually in Thedas as we understand it. It could be a pocket dimension, like the Library. In fact, I'm a big proponent of the idea that it not only was a pocket dimension, it's where Solas locked away the Fade. This is why the physical Fade looks so much like regular Thedas or an elvhen pocket dimension when you're physically there, and why you can even travel there in the first place, and why the Fade can "leak" through the Veil. 

 

 

Where were the Forgotten Ones or the Forbidden Ones during this time period? With the Evanuris banished and the Dread Wolf MIA, one of them could fill the power vacuum and control the remaining Elves, or did they write off the Elves and turned their attention on the growing Human Imperium and influence them early to get a new position of power in this Post Veil world where Elves would be greatly weakened, but in doing so allow humans to thrive.

 

The Forbidden ones were busy being Forbidden. Presumably Solas screwed the Forgotten Ones too, same as he did the rest of the elvhen. The Dalish got a lot of the story right - wouldn't be unreasonable at this point to think they got Solas locked them away right too (going back to the Forgotten Ones = the Old Gods, point). 

[myahele]

I'd imagine the forbidden one's remained in the Fade since it took centuries worth of ritualized blood magic sacrificein Kirkwall to weaken the veil there enough to release them if the "Enigma of Kirkwall" is to be believed.

 

Legends also claim that they taught the 1st Human dreamers blood magic

[Dai Grepher]

Where were the Forgotten Ones or the Forbidden Ones during this time period? With the Evanuris banished and the Dread Wolf MIA, one of them could fill the power vacuum and control the remaining Elves, or did they write off the Elves and turned their attention on the growing Human Imperium and influence them early to get a new position of power in this Post Veil world where Elves would be greatly weakened, but in doing so allow humans to thrive.

According to the memory in the Vir Dirthara, the Forbidden Ones were exiled to the furthest reaches of the Fade as spirits. So after the evanuris were sealed away, the Forbidden Ones likely returned to the Raw Fade and began their quest to enter the Real world in physical form again. It may have taken them all that time to do so. Or maybe they did it quickly and simply existed in the Real for millennia.

As for the Forgotten Ones, they are likely sealed away similar to the evanuris, only they are likely in the Void. Wherever or whatever that is. It is probably a certain level of the Fade. Maybe the dark "floor" portion of it.

[Gervaise]

I think the Forgotten Ones are locked away somewhere (probably the Void) but still able to communicate.   There is a strong chance they could be the Old Gods who whispered to the priests of Tevinter.    Given what happened to Andruil when she entered the Void, there seems a strong likelihood that the Forgotten Ones are linked in some way to Blight magic and this is the terrible power that the Dalish claim is given to those who worship them.   The dragons that arise as archdemons are likely the twin soul aspect of the Old Gods, whoever they may be, that were locked away underground or simply went into hibernation when their other half was shut away.

 

Gelduran said he was waiting to strike when "their Pride" consumed the Evanuris.   It could be simply suggesting he was awaiting the moment their pride became their downfall or he could have been aware of what Solas (Pride) was plotting to do.     He said that "I forgotten, will claim a power of my own, apart from them until I strike in mastery".   It would make sense that to revenge himself on the elves for forgetting him and the Evanuris for lording it over them for so long, he would look to the new race on the rise, the humans, taking the name Dumat, the god of silence.  

 

Whilst it is possible that all these sets of gods are completely different from one another, it does seem strange that both the Evanuris (possible collective term for Creators and Forgotten Ones) and the Old Gods are said to have been imprisoned, with the latter definitely said to have been locked away beneath the earth.     The Forbidden Ones are a different set because we have already encountered 3 of them and they would appear to be simply very ancient spirits that dwell in the Fade until summoned or find some other way to manifest in the world.   

 

I think that Minrathous could well be built over part of the ruins of old Arlathan and the latent magic is why it has never fallen.    It likely covered a very large area, so another bit could be as far away as Arlathan Forest.     The central hub could have been the Golden City that was left in the Fade that is said to have 7 gates, one for each of the Creators to enter.   Mythal did not need a gate because she built the city and she entered and left by eluvian.  Hers was the empty throne within the city, after her death.  The Thedas part of the Golden City collapsed when it was cut off by the Veil.   According to Maryden's song Arlathan sank deep beneath the ocean's floor, which could mean that this part of the ancient city actually lies beneath the Nocen Sea.