202 respuestas en este tema

[Gwydden]

City elves do have a culture. That said culture overlaps significantly with human culture is irrelevant.

[Inkvisiittori]

That doesn't matter. I agree with Hanako on this point, but it doesn't matter even if City Elf culture is wholly Andrastian (and that's not exactly accurate - because each human culture would have their own approach). It's the hypocrisy: if you're going to object to the total erasure of a culture you grew up in, forcing others to give up their culture to join you is the same thing. 

 

You've given a pretty good reason for bigotry. Orlais had a bigoted reason too: the Dales invaded and burned Orlais. We still have no idea who the first aggressor was - whether Orlais struck and was crushed, or whether the Dales struck first. 

 

The Dalish have no ties to Elvhenan. That culture was broken by Solas, crushed by Tevinter, assimilated into oblivion, desperately and partially recreated in the Dales, and then broken again. That culture is dead. The culture the  Tevinter slaves had is dead. The culture the Dales had is dead. The CEs have their culture, the Dalish have their culture (which is obsessed with a particular historical narrative) but there's no consistent way of life being protected. The Dales were a city culture with nobles - the Dalish are nomads. That's a new way of life. 

 

If you think there are morally "right" circumstances for forcing others to abandon their culture and absolutely assimilate into your own, then the debate about what Orlais did wrong is just about whether they had a good enough cause to erase the Dales' culture, rather than it being wrong that they did it. 

 

There is an old saying... when in Rome, do as the Romans do. 

 

Why would the City Elf who wishes to keep the andrastian culture wish to join the dalish? If they value it so why not just stay in the slums of human cities or among their people? Why should the dalish tolerate an outsider who does not respect their culture and ways? I can see why they would feel threatened. They have lost almost everything - they do not wish to lose any of their own young clan members to the culture that took everything from them in the first place. 

[DebatableBubble]

. . .

 

What?

 

Ignore him. All he does is go on about his characters.

[In Exile]

There is an old saying... when in Rome, do as the Romans do. 

 

Why would the City Elf who wishes to keep the andrastian culture wish to join the dalish? If they value it so why not just stay in the slums of human cities or among their people? Why should the dalish tolerate an outsider who does not respect their culture and ways? I can see why they would feel threatened. They have lost almost everything - they do not wish to lose any of their own young clan members to the culture that took everything from them in the first place. 

 

Wanting to worship the Maker doesn't mean wanting to live among a bunch of racists who are actively mistreating your people. The CEs want to leave because they don't want to be mistreated.

 

If you think the Dalish are right not to "tolerate" an "outsider" who "does not respect their cultural ways", then what's wrong with the various human nations persecuting the Dalish when they don't respect their rules: like property, ownership, and so on? Was Orlais in the right, then, for erasing the culture of the conquered Dales? After all, those are "outsiders" who did not "respect their cultural ways", and so they didn't "tolerate" them. 

 

Again, I agree the Dalish have lots of relatable reasons for being huge bigots. My point is, again, once you're OK with bigotry, it becomes hard to say that others are wrong with bigotry just because it's bigoted, rather than because they don't have good enough reasons to be bigots. 

[Zero]

'A few rituals to distinguish themselves from the humans', is what Solas says.
 
If they are anything like the ethnic minorities of today each generation becomes more and more merged with the mainstream. Of course since humans don't actually accept elves as equals in their society and they are far more isolated from the rest of the society it may help them retain some cultural identity of their own.

 
And we are taking Solas' words as something not unbiased by his racist point of view because...?

 

[In Exile]

 
And we are taking Solas' words as something not unbiased by his racist point of view because...?

 

I don't think there's any reason to think he's factually wrong about them, any more than he's wrong about his factual description of the Dalish. 

[Arshei]

The City Elves do have their own culture. It is a mixture of human culture and elven culture. 

 

They do? having a big tree in the middle of the Alienage isn't really "culture"

It was... pretty sad how you don't know a story about elven heroes to tell the kids in DA:O

 

 

But that's the irony of the conversation you quote. The Dalish force others to submit. Their advice to the CEs - those who want to leave the Alienage - is to abandon everything about themselves and become wholly Dalish. Pol constantly corrects himself with references to e.g. Andraste. Even if we take it for granted that it's totally voluntary he wants to convert in that way, I wouldn't exactly use this as a praiseworthy way of showing how the Dalish view CEs. They want to utterly erase their culture and absorb them into the Dalish way of life, at least, for those who they deem worthy enough to even be a part of it in the first place (e.g. those who risk death by starvation by fleeing the Alienage). 

 

Racial slur of Sarel's aside, it's also wonky logic. The people who agreed to secede land to them aren't the same as the ones who took it away. Drakon's descendants did, but that's only very particular cult of Andraste out of a whole bunch of different ones. One that, as far as we know, the Dales were perfectly OK with conquering the other human cultures. 

 

That's the whole point of the Dalish, recover the Elven history, one can't be a dalish and believe in Andraste, they have another options, being a Grey Warden, mistress of a king, an assassin, is not like they don't have a choice, even death is a choice.

 

They are not slaves, maybe we'll be able to play a Slave elf in DA:4 but in DA:O you were the "noble" of the Alienage. And a "noble" between the city elves has no difference between a human commoner.

[Zero]

I don't think there's any reason to think he's factually wrong about them, any more than he's wrong about his factual description of the Dalish. 

 

Whatever Solas or the Dalish believe, city elves have their own culture, different to that of humans and tevinter slave elves. In DAI, for example, there is evidence that city elves remember the Elven pantheon and still worship them in their own way, with some religious syncretism within some city elf communities (like the one in Redcliffe), revering both Evanuris and the Maker alike.

[Vit246]

Well if you talk to them, t5he other elf (forgot his name) say "i almost shoot you thinking you're human", and City Elf Warden is not as welcomed in the Dalish camp as Dalish Warden...i played City Elf Warden and i hate the Dalish for being unnecessary rude. There are dialogues from Dalish saying City Elf is no better than human, that's how racist they're even to their own kind.

 

Sarel and the other guy in Dalish origin are just propagandist talking about saving City Elves and bring them back, but the reality is they don't care

 

Uh, no.

 

"unecessary rude"

Look at it from their POV. Your city elf is still a stranger. They don't know you or your intentions. They're not obliged to be nice to you and drop their guard around you. For all they know you could be an elf like Devera who couldn't care less about kinship. The Dalish as a rule have to be cautious. Each day is a fight for survival. Sometimes the Dalish even have a point about city elves being little different than humans. Look at Sera, she's completely rejected everything elfy including the alienage, which looks down on elves who leave the alienage as flat-ears who've abandoned even their remnant of elf culture and society.

 

"propagandist"

What kool-aid did you drink? Dalish have taken in elves like Pol, Aneirin and Lanaya. Lanaya proved proved herself as elf and the Dalish prejudices went away.

[Inkvisiittori]

Wanting to worship the Maker doesn't mean wanting to live among a bunch of racists who are actively mistreating your people. The CEs want to leave because they don't want to be mistreated.

 

If you think the Dalish are right not to "tolerate" an "outsider" who "does not respect their cultural ways", then what's wrong with the various human nations persecuting the Dalish when they don't respect their rules: like property, ownership, and so on? Was Orlais in the right, then, for erasing the culture of the conquered Dales? After all, those are "outsiders" who did not "respect their cultural ways", and so they didn't "tolerate" them. 

 

Again, I agree the Dalish have lots of relatable reasons for being huge bigots. My point is, again, once you're OK with bigotry, it becomes hard to say that others are wrong with bigotry just because it's bigoted, rather than because they don't have good enough reasons to be bigots. 

 

Then giving up the culture that enslaved you in the first place should not be a big sacrifice. If it feels unbearable you can always try to stay with the racist andrastians. It's a simple choice. 

 

I have not once said what I think is right or wrong. Humans enslaved the elves and erased their culture because they could - they were stronger and the elves were weak. Similarly now the Dalish are vastly superior to City Elves - that gives them as much right as anyone to set the rules. Just because they are in the position that they can. Don't like the rules? Fine, don't play, go back to your stinking slum. No one is going to force you to stay (and some would probably even prefer it if you weren't here).

 

It's simply the way of the world.

[DebatableBubble]

Who are you to say the Dalish are superior to the city elves? What kind of bullshit is that?

[Inkvisiittori]

Who are you to say the Dalish are superior to the city elves? What kind of bullshit is that?

 

I of course only meant that their culture is superior (because City Elves have little to no culture of their own left). It's the only difference between them (as far as I know). 

[Tidus]

The Dalish are a stupid people..They seem to fail to realize fighting Shems is not good for their future. They are brain washed by their own history.

 

Let me explain that. They ramble around in small clans and every fire fight with the humes some of them die. Much like the America Indian they continue to fight impossible odds. They get fewer and fewer while the humes keep coming. 

 

They should follow these words from Chief Joseph speech: From where the sun now stands I'll fight no more forever.

 

The Dalish can roam but, avoid conflict  with humes except for self defense. What that means is no more killing because they are humes.

 

90% of the Dalish woes is their brainwashed teachings about their past, hate toward humes and to a degree CEs.

[Arshei]

Who are you to say the Dalish are superior to the city elves? What kind of bullshit is that?

 

If you have to choose between playing with a potato, or a potato with the face of Chris Pine, what potato are you going to choose?

[Arshei]

The Dalish are a stupid people..They seem to fail to realize fighting Shems is not good for their future. They are brain washed by their own history.

 

Let me explain that. They ramble around in small clans and every fire fight with the humes some of them die. Much like the America Indian they continue to fight impossible odds. They get fewer and fewer while the humes keep coming. 

 

They should follow these words from Chief Joseph speech: From where the sun now stands I'll fight no more forever.

 

The Dalish can roam but, avoid conflict  with humes except for self defense. What that means is no more killing because they are humes.

 

90% of the Dalish woes is their brainwashed teachings about their past, hate toward humes and to a degree CEs.

 

You mean just like jews do with nazis?

 

It seems Sera brainwashed your pretty head with her "too elfy" thing.

[Inkvisiittori]

The Dalish can roam but, avoid conflict  with humes except for self defense. What that means is no more killing because they are humes.

 

Isn't this what most of them are already doing, anyway? Of course there are exceptions but I don't think most dalish elves would kill every human they encounter just because they can. It would not be very wise of them.

[ModernAcademic]

Who are you to say the Dalish are superior to the city elves? What kind of bullshit is that?

 

I don't understand that sentiment either. City elves are able to adapt to another culture. They don't live an idyllic life, far from it, but they endure. The Dalish will simply refuse to adapt should the need arise and will likely die in a fight against anyone who's "not Dalish" out of a misplaced pride for their heritage. 

[Vit246]

Who are you to say the Dalish are superior to the city elves? What kind of bullshit is that?

 

I could ask the same of the city elves, why they seem to be said to be superior to the Dalish. But for the record, I don't really believe in the innate superiority of either group.

[Vit246]

The Dalish are a stupid people..They seem to fail to realize fighting Shems is not good for their future. They are brain washed by their own history.

 

Let me explain that. They ramble around in small clans and every fire fight with the humes some of them die. Much like the America Indian they continue to fight impossible odds. They get fewer and fewer while the humes keep coming. 

 

They should follow these words from Chief Joseph speech: From where the sun now stands I'll fight no more forever.

 

The Dalish can roam but, avoid conflict  with humes except for self defense. What that means is no more killing because they are humes.

 

90% of the Dalish woes is their brainwashed teachings about their past, hate toward humes and to a degree CEs.

 

Your argument is so very all over the place and generalizing and exaggerating. How am I supposed to address this.

 

I'm not sure what codex or what book or what version of Dragon Age you've been playing, but the Dalish don't go out of their way looking for fights with humans. They haven't been killing any humans just becuz they're humans. They roam around precisely to avoid them when humans inevitably get tired of their squatting in their territory cuz nobody likes foreigners squatting in their own territory. "Hate" is a strong word, but its not one-sided. Plenty of humans hate elves too because they're seen as inferior and as heathens and thus elves are fair game. You're trying to pin the blame solely on the elves and absolutely none on the humans as if they're tottally innocent. "Humes didna du nuffin!"

 

EDIT

And the "hate" between Dalish and City Elves is over-estimated. At best its pity for their urban cousins who are pitifully ignorant of their heritage (partially true) and forced to live under the yoke of human culture and dominance. At worst its condescension for elves who are seen as having really truly submitted to humans as their pawns and playthings.

Editado por Vit246, 24 julio 2016 - 11:15 .

[Vit246]

I don't understand that sentiment either. City elves are able to adapt to another culture. They don't live an idyllic life, far from it, but they endure. The Dalish will simply refuse to adapt should the need arise and will likely die in a fight against anyone who's "not Dalish" out of a misplaced pride for their heritage. 

 

I think the kind of "adaptation" you're thinking about for the Dalish would mean surrendering their sovereignty in every sense of the word. Why do you make them out to be bad guys for not wanting to drown themselves in the quagmire that is the Alienage?

[Arshei]

I don't understand that sentiment either. City elves are able to adapt to another culture. They don't live an idyllic life, far from it, but they endure. The Dalish will simply refuse to adapt should the need arise and will likely die in a fight against anyone who's "not Dalish" out of a misplaced pride for their heritage. 

 

Adaptation and submission are different things, if they adapted to live with humans why we haven't seen nobles elves? they are just... "guests" in the big house of the big bad humans. Maybe after all City Elves are different from Human commoners, they seem fools.

[Vit246]

Rant Mode on.

 

God, I cant stop finding it funny. For all the shite the Dalish get for their flaws, the city elves seem to get nothing but praise and mitigation. Even their own damn Vhenadahl Codex confesses how each generation forgets more of the old ways and traditions and the meaning gets lost. Its okay for them to be proud of their city elf culture cuz they endure and fight back in their ways, its totally not at all a "misplaced pride for their heritage", but shame on the Dalish for enduring the centuries of self-imposed exile in an effort to preserve their sovereignty and culture. The city elf can keep and promote their Andrastianism  in a Dalish clan (never mind how rather illogical it sounds) but Dalish should just give up their Dalish ways and "adapt", whatever the fvck that means. There's no such thing as a City Elf who would honestly trade their Alienage Andrastian life for the Dalish life and be all the more grateful and proud and happier for it. 

 

*sigh* No idea what to say anymore. Rant over.

Editado por Vit246, 24 julio 2016 - 11:50 .

[ModernAcademic]

Adaptation and submission are different things, if they adapted to live with humans why we haven't seen nobles elves? they are just... "guests" in the big house of the big bad humans. Maybe after all City Elves are different from Human commoners, they seem fools.

 

Because the elves who live in human cities must conform to human society. Humans in DA would find it odd to see someone born and raised in the slums to be elevated to the status of nobility. An elf simply doesn't have the same upbringing as an educated aristocrat. He knows nothing of politics, of Law, of History, of managing land and property, of regulating trade, doesn't learn foreign languages and customs, asf. The nobles would probably feel an illiterate elf with the education of a peasant is trouble waiting to happen.

 

It's more of a socioeconomical matter which spawned a prejudiced culture than a racist matter at heart.

 

One way to turn this around would be through the elven Warden's influence. Their deeds prove to human leaders elves have done the impossible thanks to their merit and should stop being marginalized. Given a chance, an elf can accomplish a lot, maybe more than a human lord.

 

But of course, elves shouldn't have to risk their lives playing the hero to conquer social rights. Instead, the aristocracy should have a welfare system that provides enough education, infrastructure and resources to elevate elves to the status of citizens.

[In Exile]

Then giving up the culture that enslaved you in the first place should not be a big sacrifice. If it feels unbearable you can always try to stay with the racist andrastians. It's a simple choice. 

 

I have not once said what I think is right or wrong. Humans enslaved the elves and erased their culture because they could - they were stronger and the elves were weak. Similarly now the Dalish are vastly superior to City Elves - that gives them as much right as anyone to set the rules. Just because they are in the position that they can. Don't like the rules? Fine, don't play, go back to your stinking slum. No one is going to force you to stay (and some would probably even prefer it if you weren't here).

 

It's simply the way of the world.

 

If you think might makes bigoted right, there's not really much for me to add or say. My point is simply that if you think the Dalish are entitled to impose their culture it's hard to criticize Andrastians (or the various human cultures) for doing the same. If you take the view that each group is ride to practice a kind of cultural supremacy, there's not really much to say other than I think you're wrong, and that this kind of cultural supremacy is wrong in and of itself. 

 

I don't understand that sentiment either. City elves are able to adapt to another culture. They don't live an idyllic life, far from it, but they endure. The Dalish will simply refuse to adapt should the need arise and will likely die in a fight against anyone who's "not Dalish" out of a misplaced pride for their heritage. 

 

It's not really "adaptation". Their old culture was criminalized. There are codexes that suggest the CEs are descendants from those who lacked means in the Dales - who didn't particularly have a choice to go nomad and build a self-serving narrative about their resistance to a group of people by avoiding them entirely and doing everything possible to not be on their radar. 

 

Rant Mode on.

 

God, I cant stop finding it funny. For all the shite the Dalish get for their flaws, the city elves seem to get nothing but praise and mitigation. Even their own damn Vhenadahl Codex confesses how each generation forgets more of the old ways and traditions and the meaning gets lost. Its okay for them to be proud of their city elf culture cuz they endure and fight back in their ways, its totally not at all a "misplaced pride for their heritage", but shame on the Dalish for enduring the centuries of self-imposed exile in an effort to preserve their sovereignty and culture. The city elf can keep and promote their Andrastianism  in a Dalish clan (never mind how rather illogical it sounds) but Dalish should just give up their Dalish ways and "adapt", whatever the fvck that means. There's no such thing as a City Elf who would honestly trade their Alienage Andrastian life for the Dalish life and be all the more grateful and happier for it. 

 

*sigh* No idea what to say anymore. Rant over.

 

The Dalish didn't preserve sovereignty or culture. That's the point. Their sovereignty was shattered when the Dales fell, and their culture was erased. They've invented a new culture much in the same way the CEs did: by doing everything in their power to stay away from humanity's radar, to be so invisible and irrelevant that the more powerful human nations barely regard them as more than a buzzing gnap. And even when the Dalish talk about their heroic resistance, it's typically about hiding from unwashed human peasants. That's a big part of what Marethari talks about, when in the Dalish Origin you have the choice to murder a few random peasants on a power trip (for the sake of a power trip). 

 

Beyond that, your rant misses the point. It's not about "allowing" CEs to proselyte. It's simply about the fact that the Dalish see one way of being an elf: their own. They ran off Solas. There could be plenty of CEs who want to be Dalish - but there may well be plenty of CEs who want to simply escape from the yoke of humanity. They don't get that option, even from the Dalish. Because it's not avoid "elven" solidarity, but cultural supremacy: you're either an elf their way, or not worthy of being called an elf. Hence the "flat ear" slur. 

[Vit246]

Story wise, City Elves and the Dalish elves talk about two entirely different things. Every Dalish is more concerned with the past. Every CE is more about the present and finding their own identity. There's more emphasis on individuality and carving out your own destiny. These are far different solutions, even if they both have a sense of loss.

 

And obviously, one is more urban. The other rural. Not everyone cares to be a magical hippy.

 

I would not say the Dalish are obsessed with the past. They too want to carve out their own destiny and they envision a time when they have their own land again and both groups come together to teach the other their wisdom.

 

And since you mention it, not everyone cares to be a oppressed underdog who excels at urban poverty. Dalish may be rural but there's that Noble Savage aspect of theirs.