203 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Because the elves who live in human cities must conform to human society. Humans in DA would find it odd to see someone born and raised in the slums to be elevated to the status of nobility. An elf simply doesn't have the same upbringing as an educated aristocrat. He knows nothing of politics, of Law, of History, of managing land and property, of regulating trade, doesn't learn foreign languages and customs, asf. The nobles would probably feel an illiterate elf with the education of a peasant is trouble waiting to happen.

 

It's more of a socioeconomical matter which spawned a prejudiced culture than a racist matter at heart.

 

One way to turn this around would be through the elven Warden's influence. Their deeds prove to human leaders elves have done the impossible thanks to their merit and should stop being marginalized. Given a chance, an elf can accomplish a lot, maybe more than a human lord.

 

But of course, elves shouldn't have to risk their lives playing the hero to conquer social rights. Instead, the aristocracy should have a welfare system that provides enough education, infrastructure and resources to elevate elves to the status of citizens.

 

That's just wrong, and we see how wrong it is in DA:I. The legal system - the actual institutions of cities like Kirkwall - appear to be biased against the CEs. It's the same with Vaughn and the race riots we see in the Alienage. And the humans who run off elves who make a life for themselves. 

[In Exile]

I would not say the Dalish are obsessed with the past. They too want to carve out their own destiny and they envision a time when they have their own land again and both groups come together to teach the other their wisdom.

 

And since you mention it, not everyone cares to be a oppressed underdog who excels at urban poverty. Dalish may be rural but there's that Noble Savage aspect of theirs.

 

But they don't want to carve their own destiny - half of their myth is this weirdly racist victim narrative, involving things like the idea that all humans are plague bearing vermin (sorry, "pests"). Their entire culture is about a fantasy past that doesn't exist, with an obsessive attachment to a land that happened to be "theirs" out of an accident of history and the magnanimity of humanity. 

[Inkvisiittori]

If you think might makes bigoted right, there's not really much for me to add or say. My point is simply that if you think the Dalish are entitled to impose their culture it's hard to criticize Andrastians (or the various human cultures) for doing the same. If you take the view that each group is ride to practice a kind of cultural supremacy, there's not really much to say other than I think you're wrong, and that this kind of cultural supremacy is wrong in and of itself. 

 

Again I never said that I think it's right or wrong - it's just the way things are. 

[Inkvisiittori]

But they don't want to carve their own destiny - half of their myth is this weirdly racist victim narrative, involving things like the idea that all humans are plague bearing vermin (sorry, "pests"). Their entire culture is about a fantasy past that doesn't exist, with an obsessive attachment to a land that happened to be "theirs" out of an accident of history and the magnanimity of humanity. 

 

Humans appeared at the same time the elves began to notice their immortality was fading. They just drew the conclusion (like how humans thought cats were responsible for the black death when in fact it was the rats). They don't know their real past because humans enslaved them and took everything from them. When Maferath granted them the Dales they had to start from scratch to re-learn their culture and language again. Maybe you should blame humans for they are the reason why the dalish had to come up with the 'fantasy past' as you put it (instead of knowing their own history). Dalish come from the Dales - they were the nobles, the lords and rulers of that land. They had roots there, generations of elves lived there and made that land their own. Then it was taken from them. Now they have no home. All they have left is their freedom and they are proud of it. 

[Qis]

Oh my, you really think that City elves has contantly to deal with rape?

Denerim was corrupt, Anora wanting power, Cailan being a buffoon, Howe scheming a lot of things, but for example, the Alienage of Kirkwall wasn't that bad, the Alienage of Highever seems to be the best Alienage of Ferelden, and the Alienages of Orlais Leliana said they are... pretty?

 

Oh forgot about the elf girls who got raped and killed in Kirkwal? The rapist get away because he's "possessed by demon", "crazy" and a son of a noble? DA2 main focus is Hawke, so we don't see much about City Elves and any other races, only about Mages and Templars

 

Cousland is Mary Sue, but you can see how the maid treating Cousland Elf servants...i doubt you like to be berrated like that everyday by your boss in your work place

 

Leliana is a spy, a bard, she know how to play words, so no wonder she say they are pretty, don't believe whatever come out from her mouth

[Arshei]

Oh forgot about the elf girls who got raped and killed in Kirkwal? The rapist get away because he's "possessed by demon", "crazy" and a son of a noble? DA2 main focus is Hawke, so we don't see much about City Elves and any other races, only about Mages and Templars

 

Cousland is Mary Sue, but you can see how the maid treating Cousland Elf servants...i doubt you like to be berrated like that everyday by your boss in your work place

 

Leliana is a spy, a bard, she know how to play words, so no wonder she say they are pretty, don't believe whatever come out from her mouth

 

They had no right to be so beautiful, is justice.

 

The way Nan treat the servants isn't because they are elves, she would do the same if they were humans.

[Zero]

Denerim was corrupt, Anora wanting power, Cailan being a buffoon, Howe scheming a lot of things, but for example, the Alienage of Kirkwall wasn't that bad, the Alienage of Highever seems to be the best Alienage of Ferelden, and the Alienages of Orlais Leliana said they are... pretty?

 
Wait, what? Why I didn't saw this before. Are you actually saying that the alienage of Highever is the best one in Ferelden?

 

If you take the time to talk with Nelaros or Nesiara in the City Elf origin, they will say that the treatment of the elves in Denerim is better than that in Highever... after seeing Vaughan harassing the elves. And that Highever's alienage is smaller and more restrictive, while Denerim's is larger and the elves are more ubiquitous and easier to ignore.

[Qis]

The way Nan treat the servants isn't because they are elves, she would do the same if they were humans.

 

I doubt it, no one care about elves because elves being subjugated enough that they won't fight back, if they are human then castle Cousland fall long before Howe doing anything, human cannot stand being treated like that because human mindset is FREEDOM, city elf mindset is ENSLAVED...of course they're not slaves now and are paid servants, but their mentality is still shadowed by slavery, and so their masters still have superiority complex mentality

[ModernAcademic]

I think the kind of "adaptation" you're thinking about for the Dalish would mean surrendering their sovereignty in every sense of the word. Why do you make them out to be bad guys for not wanting to drown themselves in the quagmire that is the Alienage?

 

They are not good or bad, heroes or villains. It's their tradition that makes it inevitable for them to clash with anyone from an influential or dominant civilization.

 

The Dalish shy away from any civilization that isn't theirs. They are afraid to submit to the culture of a large society, whatever that society is. That's what they're taught to do. And it's because of that xenophobic mindset that should one day the need arise, they won't be able to adapt to a different society in order to survive.

 

They'd rather fight and risk going extinct than try to understand their surroundings and do their best to adapt to a new lifestyle. It's who they are as a people. Unlike the city elves, the surface dwarves and the Vashoth.

[d1ta]

I guess just to point some racism problem. Try to see this from the elven perspective:

After the downfal of the elves, the People began to split into 3 :
1. Those who adamantly cling to the 'old ways'
2. Those who tried to assimilate culturally with the humans and become Andrastrian
3. Those who were unhappy living under the oppression of the shems decides to join the Qun

I really love how BW paints the situation where no one elf is the same and their situation and motivation are very much diverse from each other. You got multiple flavours of elves instead of just one.

For me, the Dalish is interesting because of their sense of tradition. The CE is interesting because of no matter how hard they struggle to fit in, most of the human population still look upon them with disdain and treated like a 2nd class citizen.

But if your question is about why not create a "Human Commoner Origin with sad back story" in the next game vs "CE with sad story" then I'm all for it.

I'd like to see some role swap in the coming game, where there is a human commoner that has to strugle to survive and a CE who is well treated for a change (caught this from an ambient dialogue in VR where a noblemen addresses his elven employee in a kind manner)

But since it seemed that 1 race is limited to 1 backstory so the status quo will always be that humans will get the lofty position, since changing that part could upset part of the fan base that likes to roll the traditional HN.

[Zero]

You forget a 4th group: those that are still enslaved in Tevinter. 

 

We haven't seen yet all the details about that group, but we know they are different from the city elves, Dalish and Viddathari elves. 

[d1ta]

Hehe.. yeah, totally forgot about that one.

I'd wager it'd be a very terrifying thing living as a slave in the imperium where your blood is prized as fuel for Blood Magic TM due to elves and their special connection with the fade.

It'd be pretty interesting to role play as CE in Tevinter. Since no other race has that 'trait' / genetic make up.

As a slave of a ruthless Magister / slaver, or..
Maybe CE employed by Maevaris Tillani / Dorian / some benevolent soul somewhere in Minrathous

[German Soldier]

They are just the poor people with pointy ears of Dragon Age.

Fictional racism..... as if the real one wasn't already enough.

[Qis]

City Elves life matter

[Xilizhra]

Wanting to worship the Maker doesn't mean wanting to live among a bunch of racists who are actively mistreating your people. The CEs want to leave because they don't want to be mistreated.

 

If you think the Dalish are right not to "tolerate" an "outsider" who "does not respect their cultural ways", then what's wrong with the various human nations persecuting the Dalish when they don't respect their rules: like property, ownership, and so on? Was Orlais in the right, then, for erasing the culture of the conquered Dales? After all, those are "outsiders" who did not "respect their cultural ways", and so they didn't "tolerate" them. 

 

Again, I agree the Dalish have lots of relatable reasons for being huge bigots. My point is, again, once you're OK with bigotry, it becomes hard to say that others are wrong with bigotry just because it's bigoted, rather than because they don't have good enough reasons to be bigots. 

The problem is that Andrastianism is inherently inimical to the Dalish, both for its intolerance of other faiths and its demand that all mages be imprisoned.

[Ieldra]

Hmm....as for the OP's question:

 

Do I like City Elves? Well....no. At least not more or less than any other group. I like or dislike individuals, or ideologies, but not groups unless they can be defined by a common ideology like the qunari, and even then it's more of a statistical tendency rather than a rule. I am sympathetic to their situation like I'd be to any other group of people relegated to the status of second-class citizens, but that does not automatically mean that I like them all.

 

I greatly enjoyed playing a female City Elf in DAO, mainly because I felt that getting out of that attempted-rape situation alive and getting the opportunity to punish those responsible was an act of self-empowerment against overwhelming odds. It had nothing intrinsically to do with race, however. I'd have enjoyed it the same with a human from some marginalized group in a similar situation.

 

Also, I'd like to repeat that oppression is not defined by a high prevalence of abuse, but rather by (1) the psychological state created by the knowledge of what *could* happen, and the knowledge that you'd have no recourse against members of the dominant faction, culture or political system, if something bad should happen to you, and/or (2) laws that systematically disadvantage the marginalized group and prevent its members from taking part in the life of the dominant culture.

[IHaveReturned1999]

Where will they go? Dalish will shoot them first then asking question...human will reject them...they have no where to go than other Alieneages

If I was an elf I rather live in the forests that I could feed and take care of myself and my family among the tribe, rather than living in the streets and being hunted and mutilated by those demons.

[Qis]

If I was an elf I rather live in the forests that I could feed and take care of myself and my family among the tribe, rather than living in the streets and being hunted and mutilated by those demons.

 

The tribes are not safe in anyway, they have to face humans who resent them, Templar, bandits, bears, wolves, werewolves, walking trees, demons, shades, revenants, undead and darkspawn....being in the Alieneage is actually safer than in the forest. It just that they have lower social status, Thedas is not a democracy and they're not allowed to carry weapons

[IHaveReturned1999]

The tribes are not safe in anyway, they have to face humans who resent them, Templar, bandits, bears, wolves, werewolves, walking trees, demons, shades, revenants, undead and darkspawn....being in the Alieneage is actually safer than in the forest. It just that they have lower social status, Thedas is not a democracy and they're not allowed to carry weapons

I take my chances in the forest where I could live off the land and go wherever I want. I rather take my chances with wildlife over humans who would kill me or sell me into slavery, I take my chances with the bears.

[Qis]

I take my chances in the forest where I could live off the land and go wherever I want. I rather take my chances with wildlife over humans who would kill me or sell me into slavery, I take my chances with the bears.

 

City Elf Warden can be a bann, creating militias and establish trades, surely more to come such as having some rights...

 

“With a new bann in the Landsmeet to represent them, the city-born elves found a better lot than ever. New law gave the elves more trading rights and their own militia within the Alienage.”

 

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. The new king even named the local elder to his personal court--a scandal amongst the humans, but a sign of new hope to the elves.”

 

But human are just as racist as Dalish Elves, never learn to live in harmony, as equal, having superiority complex and xenophobic

 

“With <FirstName/> as their new voice, the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.”

 

That's why playing as City Elf is unique, it is not "live happily ever after" like Queen Cousland, although that is a compelling ending too, it give a replay-ability, i play a Cousland because i want to be a Queen, i play City Elf because i want to see what becomes of the City Elves...and so others

 

That's why DA:O is the best

[Xerrai]

The tribes are not safe in anyway, they have to face humans who resent them, Templar, bandits, bears, wolves, werewolves, walking trees, demons, shades, revenants, undead and darkspawn....being in the Alieneage is actually safer than in the forest. It just that they have lower social status, Thedas is not a democracy and they're not allowed to carry weapons

Eh I'm not to sure about that. I mean, the Dalish have to deal with a lot of stuff, but so do alienage elves. Only difference is that a lot of stuff is almost entirely at the whim of human politics.

Elves can get beaten by a human every day and nothing will be done to stop it. Elves can get slaughtered by chevaliers and nothing will be done about it. Same with just killing the entire alienage populace, which can and does happen if the political climate starts to change in a certain way.

 

Their chance of death/oppression is high either way, all that matters is which form you want it to take. For the elves at least, living in a human city is as treacherous as living in the woods. It's just that those dangers have taken different forms.

 

For the Dalish, the dangers are mostly related to survival, like what you listed. For city elves, the danger comes from being under human boots at best, and human blades at worst.

[Arshei]

City Elf Warden can be a bann, creating militias and establish trades, surely more to come such as having some rights...

 

“With a new bann in the Landsmeet to represent them, the city-born elves found a better lot than ever. New law gave the elves more trading rights and their own militia within the Alienage.”

 

“With the slavers shut down in the Alienage, the lot of the city-born elves improved for a time. The new king even named the local elder to his personal court--a scandal amongst the humans, but a sign of new hope to the elves.”

 

But human are just as racist as Dalish Elves, never learn to live in harmony, as equal, having superiority complex and xenophobic

 

“With <FirstName/> as their new voice, the elves became prosperous in a way they had never known... enough to draw elves from nearby lands, desperate for real hope. The influx built ire among the human population and eventually resulted in a riot in Denerim, showing that as much as things change, they always stay the same.”

 

That's why playing as City Elf is unique, it is not "live happily ever after" like Queen Cousland, although that is a compelling ending too, it give a replay-ability, i play a Cousland because i want to be a Queen, i play City Elf because i want to see what becomes of the City Elves...and so others

 

That's why DA:O is the best

 

Wow, that's very interesting, I never payed attention to that epilogues, it shows how stupid and useless city elves are compared to Dalish elves, they can't even improve where they live, why would anyone play a character that... submissive.

[Zero]

It depends of who you chose as a the ruler of Ferelden. The riots only happen if you chose Anora as a sole ruler, or Warden Cousland marries Anora. With King Alistair in any of its variants (alone, or married with Anora or Cousland), the riots never happen. 

 

That's why I cannot trust Anora...

[IHaveReturned1999]

It depends of who you chose as a the ruler of Ferelden. The riots only happen if you chose Anora as a sole ruler, or Warden Cousland marries Anora. With King Alistair in any of its variants (alone, or married with Anora or Cousland), the riots never happen. 
 
That's why I cannot trust Anora...

Really? I never have this ending where they're riots @ the alienages.

[Xerrai]

Wow, that's very interesting, I never payed attention to that epilogues, it shows how stupid and useless city elves are compared to Dalish elves, they can't even improve where they live, why would anyone play a character that... submissive.

Tell that to the elves that joined Briala and her underground army.