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Why people like City Elfs?


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#126
Pasquale1234

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Force can be subtle. You are only allowed to practice this religion in public.


But is anyone *forced* to practice it? Do authorities stand in your home to make sure you don't sing a song to Sylaise when you stoke your fire?
 

If you want to get married you need permission from the Chantry.


Every culture has practices for entering a marriage recognized by law.
 

It is the only religion you are exposed to.


I've yet to play a DA game where my character was denied information about other religions.
 

Living in the andrastian cities you have to follow the religious laws. It doesn't matter if you don't believe in the Maker: if you are a mage they are still going to lock you up because "it's the Maker's will."


Or because it's the King's/Queen's/Empress' will.
 

If you want to be accepted in the human society it is much easier if you embrace their culture and religion - this might make life easier for you.


If you want to be accepted in Orlesian society, you wear really silly clothes and a mask. If you want to be accepted in Dalish society, you put a tattoo on your face. Every culture has such customs.

#127
IHaveReturned1999

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They could be free like the dalish but instead they willingly live in the slums of humans cities where they have no rights and are treated like trash. This I don't understand.

I like to add to that. First off the elves were lied by humans that the Dalish Elves were savages who kidnapped children, and sacrifice them with blood magic and the usual white wash to elves could spread disinformation to prevent elves from leaving the alienages, and start a with them. Isn't that twisted? The humans hate elves so much that they don't want them to leave their ghettos to find a life for themselves by spreading lies.

#128
Zero

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Force can be subtle. You are only allowed to practice this religion in public. If you want to get married you need permission from the Chantry. It is the only religion you are exposed to. Living in the andrastian cities you have to follow the religious laws. It doesn't matter if you don't believe in the Maker: if you are a mage they are still going to lock you up because "it's the Maker's will." If you want to be accepted in the human society it is much easier if you embrace their culture and religion - this might make life easier for you. 
 
"It's not right. I studied hard, I passed my Harrowing, I sing the Chant. But I'll be locked up for the rest of my life." - Lysas, elven mage from Redcliffe. 
 
Chant of Light was spread by force. You can confront Mother Giselle about this. City Elves today may be born andrastian - but their ancestors were forced to give up their own religion and convert to andrastianism. They did not have a choice.


Yet, in DAI, we have a city elf in Redcliffe praising Sylaise and Ghilan'nain, in front of the Herald of Andraste (the top representative of the Andrastian religion as of 9:40 Dragon, regardless of our headcanons), as well a evidence in the Hinterlands that city elves revere both the Maker and the Creators (in one of the fetch quest).

 

This means that they have not only preserved their old religion and are still practicing it in some communities, but also that they aren't as "stray" to their heritage as the Dalish like to believe. 


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#129
Jedi Master of Orion

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I kinda got the sense that might have come from living out in rural areas of the countryside. Alienages are tightly packed and insular communities, it might not be quite as common there.



#130
PhroXenGold

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I like to add to that. First off the elves were lied by humans that the Dalish Elves were savages who kidnapped children, and sacrifice them with blood magic and the usual white wash to elves could spread disinformation to prevent elves from leaving the alienages, and start a with them. Isn't that twisted? The humans hate elves so much that they don't want them to leave their ghettos to find a life for themselves by spreading lies.

 

To be fair, elves lie about humans too.

 

But the lies likely weren't originally spread by people who genuinely hated elves. More likely they were spread by those in power who don't want human peasants to realise they have far more in common with city elves than they do human nobles. Divide your enemies, make them hate each other. An old, simple and effective tactic. We see it all the time in the real world.


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#131
PunchFaceReporter

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Why would I want to play as a dirty elf who lives in the woods? Much prefer my poor but classy city elf any day.

#132
IHaveReturned1999

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To be fair, elves lie about humans too.
 
But the lies likely weren't originally spread by people who genuinely hated elves. More likely they were spread by those in power who don't want human peasants to realise they have far more in common with city elves than they do human nobles.
Divide your enemies, make them hate each other. An old, simple and effective tactic. We see it all the time in the real world.

The elves never spread lies about humans by telling vicious tales about them, because they genuinely hated elves, and their actions keep proving that humans are by nature vicious, and a mind of a savage that would hate and harm that anyone who's different. The Chantry spread lies about the elves of their history of elves @ the Dales, the Imperium still enslaving elves, and Celene purged the elven alienage. Actions that caused the elves to hate them and I don't f**king blame them.

#133
PhroXenGold

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The elves never spread lies about humans by telling vicious tales about them, because they genuinely hated elves, and their actions keep proving that humans are by nature vicious, and a mind of a savage that would hate and harm that anyone who's different. The Chantry spread lies about the elves of their history of elves @ the Dales, the Imperium still enslaving elves, and Celene purged the elven alienage. Actions that caused the elves to hate them and I don't f**king blame them.

 

Humans didn't spread the lies. Humans in power spread the lies. The elite will always use fear of the other to keep the masses distracted from their true oppressors. That's what you're missing. If elves had been in charge, the elite amongst them would've created such hatred against humans. Creation of artificial distinctions to control people. oldest frikkin' trick in the book. There's no difference between human and elf other than the latter being skinnier and having pointy ears (i.e. cosmetic and meaningless), but those in power pretend there's more in order to secure their control.

 

Blame the elite of Thedas, their institutions and power structures, not humans as a whole.



#134
Hanako Ikezawa

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The elves never spread lies about humans by telling vicious tales about them, because they genuinely hated elves, and their actions keep proving that humans are by nature vicious, and a mind of a savage that would hate and harm that anyone who's different. The Chantry spread lies about the elves of their history of elves @ the Dales, the Imperium still enslaving elves, and Celene purged the elven alienage. Actions that caused the elves to hate them and I don't f**king blame them.

Incorrect. The Dalish do spread lies about humans. They blame everything on humans, even things that humans had nothing to do with, to keep the elves in the clans following the Dalish ways. A prime example is their lie about humans being responsible for their loss of immortality. 


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#135
IHaveReturned1999

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Incorrect. The Dalish do spread lies about humans. They blame everything on humans, even things that humans had nothing to do with, to keep the elves in the clans following the Dalish ways. A prime example is their lie about humans being responsible for their loss of immortality.

They didn't know the real truth of why they've lost their immortality so they go by stories of how Tevinter enslaved and raped them is the best explanation of how they lost their immortality. They lost so much of their history that is destroyed by humans that causes animosity towards them because humans want to destroy everything that is not one of them. That is a mind of a brainless violent savage and it's in their nature to kill and destroy, and even the Great Oak @ the Brecillian Forest says humans are by nature destroyers.

#136
Vit246

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Incorrect. The Dalish do spread lies about humans. They blame everything on humans, even things that humans had nothing to do with, to keep the elves in the clans following the Dalish ways. A prime example is their lie about humans being responsible for their loss of immortality. 

 

Its only a lie if they know its a lie. And they don't know. You are presuming malice when it is simply ignorance. You are presuming that elves are being deceived or oppressed by being Dalish. You are acting like elves have nothing to fear from the majority of humans and humans have never done anything to them. And given the devastating loss of knowledge they suffered from the first civilization's fall and the centuries of Tevinter slavery who destroyed or appropriated their knowledge, its no wonder they blame the humans. And I haven't even got to the other part.


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#137
Hanako Ikezawa

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They didn't know the real truth of why they've lost their immortality so they go by stories of how Tevinter enslaved and raped them is the best explanation of how they lost their immortality. They lost so much of their history that is destroyed by humans that causes animosity towards them because humans want to destroy everything that is not one of them. That is a mind of a brainless violent savage and it's in their nature to kill and destroy, and even the Great Oak @ the Brecillian Forest says humans are by nature destroyers.

And this rant counters what I said...how exactly? Still means they lied to themselves about what happened.

Also, lol at the once again objectively wrong racist remarks. 

 

Its only a lie if they know its a lie. And they don't know. You are presuming malice when it is simply ignorance. You are presuming that elves are being deceived or oppressed by being Dalish. You are acting like elves have nothing to fear from the majority of humans and humans have never done anything to them. And given the devastating loss of knowledge they suffered from the first civilization's fall and the centuries of Tevinter slavery who destroyed or appropriated their knowledge, its no wonder they blame the humans. And I haven't even got to the other part.

Except there is malice behind it. The Dalish leaders are using that information as a way to keep control over the mindset of the Dalish elves, using the fear of humanity being responsible for their mortality to keep anyone from trying to suggest they try making connections with the humans. And again, that is only one example. Another example is the loss of the Dales themselves being the humans fault, when it was the Dales that was responsible for every instance mentioned in the lore it is the Dales' that started it. Animosity rising? That was the Dales letting Orlais burn in the Blight. Animosity reaching a boiling point? That was the Dales slaughtering Red Crossing. The Dales-Orlais War? That was the Dales when they invaded Orlais. And since they were descendants of the nobility of the Dales, the Dalish would know this if it wasn't for their authority figures lying about it. 


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#138
Inkvisiittori

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Except there is malice behind it. The Dalish leaders are using that information as a way to keep control over the mindset of the Dalish elves, using the fear of humanity being responsible for their mortality to keep anyone from trying to suggest they try making connections with the humans.

 

Where's your evidence to support these accusations?

 

Another example is the loss of the Dales themselves being the humans fault, when it was the Dales that was responsible for every instance mentioned in the lore it is the Dales' that started it. Animosity rising? That was the Dales letting Orlais burn in the Blight. Animosity reaching a boiling point? That was the Dales slaughtering Red Crossing. The Dales-Orlais War? That was the Dales when they invaded Orlais. And since they were descendants of the nobility of the Dales, the Dalish would know this if it wasn't for their authority figures lying about it. 

 

Oh, so you think the dalish are the only one's responsible? There was no provocation from Orlais, at all?


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#139
IHaveReturned1999

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Where's your evidence to support these accusations?


Oh, so you think the dalish are the only one's responsible? There was no provocation from Orlais, at all?

Hello!

#140
IHaveReturned1999

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And this rant counters what I said...how exactly? Still means they lied to themselves about what happened.
Also, lol at the once again objectively wrong racist remarks.

Again with the gaslighting.

#141
Mlady

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I never liked them. I only enjoy playing a Dalish elf in DAI but a CE and DE just felt eh to me in DAO though I did play them. I found a Mage had a more deeper look into things and my elf in that one was adorable! She had a few look down on her for being an elf and Mage but she was a Mage first and she grew up in the Denerim Alienage so it felt a bit more personal when she arrived and learned of all that happened.



#142
Zero

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Animosity reaching a boiling point? That was the Dales slaughtering Red Crossing.

  
Red Crossing was an unfortunate event because, yeah, elves killed a human girl, Adalene, that was in love with this elf guy, Elandrin, but at the same time human hunters killed an elven girl (Siona's sister), and that was before Adalene was killed. Both sides had just cause to fight against each other, and that started a whole war. And we have to take into account that the codex states the Dales elves were fighting against humans in their borders before what happened in Red Crossing, so, yeah the Dales accusation of Orlais violating Dales sovereign territory was true.
 
http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin
 
And when Orlais won, they conveniently forgot about that little elf girl they killed, their soldiers (and possibly templars) trespassing the Dales borders, and their part of the fault, because history is written by the winners.
 
Dalish may have a lot to blame for the fall of the Dales. But Red Crossing isn't exclusively theirs.

 

(Sorry for the bad grammar here, my english isn't that good yet).



#143
Hanako Ikezawa

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Red Crossing was an unfortunate event because, yeah, elves killed a human girl, Adalene, that was in love with this elf guy, Elandrin, but at the same time human hunters killed an elven girl (Siona's sister), and that was before Adalene was killed. Both sides had just cause to fight against each other, and that started a whole war. And we have to take into account that the codex states the Dales elves were fighting against humans in their borders before what happened in Red Crossing, so, yeah the Dales accusation of Orlais violating Dales sovereign territory was true.
 
http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin
 
And when Orlais won, they conveniently forgot about that little elf they killed, and their part of the fault.
 
Dalish may have a lot to blame for the fall of the Dales. But Red Crossing isn't exclusively theirs.

 

(Sorry for the bad grammar here, my english is that good yet).

The events leading up to Red Crossing isn't exclusively theirs I agree, however the massacre of Red Crossing itself is exclusively theirs.



#144
IHaveReturned1999

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Red Crossing was an unfortunate event because, yeah, elves killed a human girl, Adalene, that was in love with this elf guy, Elandrin, but at the same time human hunters killed an elven girl (Siona's sister), and that was before Adalene was killed. Both sides had just cause to fight against each other, and that started a whole war. And we have to take into account that the codex states the Dales elves were fighting against humans in their borders before what happened in Red Crossing, so, yeah the Dales accusation of Orlais violating Dales sovereign territory was true.

http://dragonage.wik...ath_of_Elandrin

And when Orlais won, they conveniently forgot about that little elf girl they killed, their soldiers (and possibly templars) trespassing the Dales borders, and their part of the fault, because history is written by the winners.

Dalish may have a lot to blame for the fall of the Dales. But Red Crossing isn't exclusively theirs.

(Sorry for the bad grammar here, my english isn't that good yet).

The animosity against humans was started ever since the Imperium enslaved them, which causes immense trauma that causes anger and hate towards humans. It's called the Domino Effect.
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#145
ShadowLordXII

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The animosity against humans was started ever since the Imperium enslaved them, which causes immense trauma that causes anger and hate towards humans. It's called the Domino Effect.

 

Exactly.

 

I won't pretend that the Dalish are guiltless. But overall, the moral and ethical weight of condemnation falls more on Orlais and the Chantry than on the Dales.

 

Okay, so the initial conflict between the Dales and Orlais/Chantry is due to the Dales' isolationism; their religion and culture; and because of eventual border disputes and skirmishes that escalated into war.

 

What if I were to tell you that the Dales policy of distrust and isolation towards humans can be seen as justified in light of hundreds of years of cultural deprivation, slavery and the fact that their first homeland was utterly destroyed by an aggressive invasion of humans?

 

Elvhenan was brutally invaded and destroyed by the Tevinter Imperium. Arlathan was sunk into the very ground through powerful blood magic. The survivors were deprived of their identities, culture and way of life and taken into slavery for hundreds of years. A form of slavery where elves were among other atrocities such as forced manual labor, rape, murder and horrific living conditions, sometimes an upward of hundreds of elves were sacrificed to fuel powerful blood magic as seen with the Rifting of the Veil and whatever happened in Kirkwall.

 

And yes, it's true that Elvehenan was a shell of it's former self by the time the Tevinter got to them thanks to Solas raising the Veil. But that in no way absolves Tevinter of what their actions or of the horrific treatment that they inflicted on the elves. And incidently, elves and humans lived in relative peace for a time until the elves began to fear that human contact was harming them and isolated themselves for self-preservation and warded off later aggressive Tevinter encroachment onto their lands.

 

So with all of the above in mind, I don't blame the elves of the Dales for being a little more than untrusting of their neighbors in Orlais. The elves wanted to be left alone to practice their beliefs and their culture in peace. Had Orlais and the Chantry backed off from the Dales, it's possible that the Dales would have eventually made diplomatic/economic contact with human nations of their own freewill. However, knowing what Drakon and his successors did to other Rival Andrastianist beliefs and rival faiths aren't exactly indicators that the Dales should expect any less from Orlais or Drakon's chantry.

 

The fact that a Dalish army was allegedly present at Montsimmond during the Second Blight suggests that the elves may have initially sent help despite their deep-rooted distrust. But halted and turned back when they got a closer look at the situation and the commanders of that army concluded that it was best to withdraw and strengthen their borders rather than die for nothing. Similar to what Thranduil did in the first hobbit movie or what Orlais itself did during the 5th Blight in light of Loghain's prejudice and the Ferelden Civil War as well as during other blights. Furthermore, the tale of Illoren counteracts the idea that the Dalish were completely inactive and helpful during the Blight as Illoren's clan did fight the darkspawn in the Anderfels, far to the north of the Dales. 

 

The Chant also asserts that it wants to spread its dominance and influence across the world, so it's unsurprising that the Chantry-champion/founder Orlais would breath down the Dales' neck. However, it doesn't get to claim the moral high ground just because the Dales wouldn't back down. They also don't get to play victim when the Dales get tired of Orlais' s$%% and go on the offensive after several generations of firm, but non-aggressive restraint. Red Crossing never would've happened if inherent Chantry aggressive beliefs and Orlesian political ambitions didn't pour fuel into the pot.

 

An earlier poster claims that things wouldn't have escalated if the Dales were willing to compromise. How will compromise work against a party who is inherently unwilling to accept compromise and will settle for nothing less than everything? That would be as ludicrous as the Dwarven Empire trying to make peace with constant darkspawn invasions who've shown no sign of wanting anything accept to destroy and corrupt everything in their path.

 

Just look what happened after the Exalted March, the Chantry forced the elves to convert and live as second-class citizens in perpetual poverty and misery or live on in constant exile trying to live off the land and evade potential templar pursuit while Orlais took over the Dales. A clear indication that neither the Chantry nor Orlais was ever open to compromise or peaceful co-existence.

 

In light of all of this, it makes no sense to argue that the fault of the Fall of the Dales falls more on the dalish than any other party when the Dalish just wanted to live their lives in their own homes free from any further human interference or domination. Sadly, the Chantry and Orlais had different plans in mind for the Dales and were clearly unwilling to stop till they got them.


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#146
IHaveReturned1999

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Exactly.

I won't pretend that the Dalish are guiltless. But overall, the moral and ethical weight of condemnation falls more on Orlais and the Chantry than on the Dales.

Okay, so the initial conflict between the Dales and Orlais/Chantry is due to the Dales' isolationism; their religion and culture; and because of eventual border disputes and skirmishes that escalated into war.

What if I were to tell you that the Dales policy of distrust and isolation towards humans can be seen as justified in light of hundreds of years of cultural deprivation, slavery and the fact that their first homeland was utterly destroyed by an aggressive invasion of humans?

Elvhenan was brutally invaded and destroyed by the Tevinter Imperium. Arlathan was sunk into the very ground through powerful blood magic. The survivors were deprived of their identities, culture and way of life and taken into slavery for hundreds of years. A form of slavery where elves were among other atrocities such as forced manual labor, rape, murder and horrific living conditions, sometimes an upward of hundreds of elves were sacrificed to fuel powerful blood magic as seen with the Rifting of the Veil and whatever happened in Kirkwall.

And yes, it's true that Elvehenan was a shell of it's former self by the time the Tevinter got to them thanks to Solas raising the Veil. But that in no way absolves Tevinter of what their actions or of the horrific treatment that they inflicted on the elves. And incidently, elves and humans lived in relative peace for a time until the elves began to fear that human contact was harming them and isolated themselves for self-preservation and warded off later aggressive Tevinter encroachment onto their lands.

So with all of the above in mind, I don't blame the elves of the Dales for being a little more than untrusting of their neighbors in Orlais. The elves wanted to be left alone to practice their beliefs and their culture in peace. Had Orlais and the Chantry backed off from the Dales, it's possible that the Dales would have eventually made diplomatic/economic contact with human nations of their own freewill. However, knowing what Drakon and his successors did to other Rival Andrastianist beliefs and rival faiths aren't exactly indicators that the Dales should expect any less from Orlais or Drakon's chantry.

The fact that a Dalish army was allegedly present at Montsimmond during the Second Blight suggests that the elves may have initially sent help despite their deep-rooted distrust. But halted and turned back when they got a closer look at the situation and the commanders of that army concluded that it was best to withdraw and strengthen their borders rather than die for nothing. Similar to what Thranduil did in the first hobbit movie or what Orlais itself did during the 5th Blight in light of Loghain's prejudice and the Ferelden Civil War as well as during other blights. Furthermore, the tale of Illoren counteracts the idea that the Dalish were completely inactive and helpful during the Blight as Illoren's clan did fight the darkspawn in the Anderfels, far to the north of the Dales.

The Chant also asserts that it wants to spread its dominance and influence across the world, so it's unsurprising that the Chantry-champion/founder Orlais would breath down the Dales' neck. However, it doesn't get to claim the moral high ground just because the Dales wouldn't back down. They also don't get to play victim when the Dales get tired of Orlais' s$%% and go on the offensive after several generations of firm, but non-aggressive restraint. Red Crossing never would've happened if inherent Chantry aggressive beliefs and Orlesian political ambitions didn't pour fuel into the pot.

An earlier poster claims that things wouldn't have escalated if the Dales were willing to compromise. How will compromise work against a party who is inherently unwilling to accept compromise and will settle for nothing less than everything? That would be as ludicrous as the Dwarven Empire trying to make peace with constant darkspawn invasions who've shown no sign of wanting anything accept to destroy and corrupt everything in their path.

Just look what happened after the Exalted March, the Chantry forced the elves to convert and live as second-class citizens in perpetual poverty and misery or live on in constant exile trying to live off the land and evade potential templar pursuit while Orlais took over the Dales. A clear indication that neither the Chantry nor Orlais was ever open to compromise or peaceful co-existence.

In light of all of this, it makes no sense to argue that the fault of the Fall of the Dales falls more on the dalish than any other party when the Dalish just wanted to live their lives in their own homes free from any further human interference or domination. Sadly, the Chantry and Orlais had different plans in mind for the Dales and were clearly unwilling to stop till they got them.

Hey man I absolutely agree with you with a 120%!!! It's like you read my mind! The elves needed to be isolated away from humans so they could focus on healing themselves, but since the whole darkspawn thing messed things up, the humans want to project the blame and all they have to do is wait for the opportunity for the elves to retaliate against them, and that's when they destroy them and put them in ghettos. "We will provoke you to violence and then we will destroy you."

And I say give the Dales back to the elves so they could have a homeland of their own and The Chantry is not allowed to build missionaries within their territory, they could set up a border town like a bazaar for trade goods with merchants, they could establish embassies at the border, and the Grey Wardens can conscript elves to fight alongside them against the Blight. But humans cannot buy, invest, or own land within their territory, and if they attempt to commit any crime against the elves, they would be tried and executed by court. I say leave the elves alone and let them live their lives and why humans want to bother them when they use to have their own nation in the first place??? It's like is in their nature to **** with them. Weird.

#147
Hanako Ikezawa

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I say give the Dales back to the elves so they could have a homeland of their own and The Chantry is not allowed to build missionaries within their territory, they could set up a border town like a bazaar for trade goods with merchants, they could establish embassies at the border, and the Grey Wardens can conscript elves to fight alongside them against the Blight. But humans cannot buy, invest, or own land within their territory, and if they attempt to commit any crime against the elves, they would be tried and executed by court. I say leave the elves alone and let them live their lives and why humans want to bother them when they use to have their own nation in the first place??? It's like is in their nature to **** with them. Weird.

With conditions like these, you'll never get an elven homeland again. 



#148
IHaveReturned1999

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With conditions like these, you'll never get an elven homeland again.

Do you have a better idea?

#149
Hanako Ikezawa

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Do you have a better idea?

Yes. Make a treaty that has compromises to the point where you get enough of what you want and they get enough of what they want for all sides to agree. 



#150
IHaveReturned1999

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Yes. Make a treaty that has compromises to the point where you get enough of what you want and they get enough of what they want for all sides to agree.

As far as I'm concerned the elves don't owe them jack ****, the only thing in return for the elves is they could fight alongside with them against the Blight. It is simple as that.