157 réponses à ce sujet

[SKAR]

And that is all it is, Opinions.

And I get my entertainment, that is all.

I guess we all do. But at least I'm not being stupid about it like the other trolls.

[9TailsFox]

There's enough of this. There's no reason yet to believe we leave because of reapers. Bio said that people volunteered. Why can't it be for exploration? We like to do that.

We don't do science because of exploration and curiosity.

[MrFob]

So the Council go from being unbelievably incompetent amnesiacs to horrendously vile war criminals willing to allow billions to perish in an attempt at self preservation?

 
Can someone explain this to me (either QMR or someone who liked the post) because I honestly don't get this point. How do they become war criminals? How do they "allow billions to perish"?
 
The way I see it, there is nothing they can do for the "billions of people" no matter what. You can't build an armada to defeat the reapers in 3 years, even if you had the tech to do it (which they don't). So in that sense, whether there was an ARK program during ME2 or not is completely irrelevant to how the reaper war goes.
It's also not self preservation (the council itself is not leaving) but preservation of the species (plural). I really don't see how there is anything bad about this contingency plan.

 

We don't do science because of exploration and curiosity.

 

Also, this! If you ever tried to get funding for a science project, you know you need tangible gains in order to justify the effort and expenses. Pure intellectual curiosity does not get you anywhere, unless you happen to be rich enough to pay for everything with your own money (which I doubt would be the case for the ARKs).

 

Just an expansion of that video because all the important arguments are not in the short one:

https://youtu.be/N22eMZP5phI?t=1905

 

Tyson for the win yet again.

[SKAR]

We don't do science because of exploration and curiosity.
https://youtu.be/N1QwaOYCCDY

looks more like a joke. Sure there are motives but exploration into the Unknown is a huge benefit. Case and point. They are both right. But I'll be honest with you. I'm curious and I want to know what's out there. I want to explore. The funds for the ark expedition is apparently for colonization and exploration, both of those are the focus of the game. Finding a new home for humanity whether it's for reapers or whatever. We've found plenty of homes for humanity in the MW. Why not go and establish ourselves in Andromeda? We want to know what's out there. Bioware said it themselves in the trailer. It's a select amount of people who will be making new lives in Andromeda. It's comparable to people leaving say Ireland or mexico to come to America. We are immigrants in Andromeda. Out on the frontier. We built the ark ships to make new lives and colonize a new galaxy just like we would a planet. That's a good enough reason as any.

[Hammerstorm]

I guess we all do. But at least I'm not being stupid about it like the other trolls.

 

Well, you are a bit blinded by your passion, and you keep telling people that they are wrong and you are right, without any tangible proof.

But that is not my headache.

[SKAR]

Well, you are a bit blinded by your passion, and you keep telling people that they are wrong and you are right, without any tangible proof.
But that is not my headache.

Now that's ironic. But it's all from a different perspective. You got people saying we should stay in the MW and not go to Andromeda for silly reasons. I don't think I'm being the blind one here. There are plenty of good reasons to go to Andromeda. But I'm getting a kick out of these people myself. They're stubborn. But so am I. Honestly I'm just going off what Bioware has been telling is. That's all.

[Quarian Master Race]

 
Can someone explain this to me (either QMR or someone who liked the post) because I honestly don't get this point. How do they become war criminals? How do they "allow billions to perish"?
 
The way I see it, there is nothing they can do for the "billions of people" no matter what. You can't build an armada to defeat the reapers in 3 years, even if you had the tech to do it (which they don't). So in that sense, whether there was an ARK program during ME2 or not is completely irrelevant to how the reaper war goes.
It's also not self preservation (the council itself is not leaving) but preservation of the species (plural). I really don't see how there is anything bad about this contingency plan.

The Council has no means of verifying Reaper numbers until Leviathan, nor do they know they only have 3 years for buildup of forces ( apparently the ME1 plot was pointless because Reapers can just floor the gas pedal and be here that quickly). They only know that they are technologically advanced but are currently trapped in dark space. Such rampant defeatism as you are expressing would not be logical. However, even if the Council had the same metagame knowledge as the player about the chances of so called "conventional victory" it would still be an example of criminally incompetent leadership. Their so called Ark project would probably be able to save a lot more people if they weren't concerned with hiding a giant conspiracy theory from the galaxy at large (which is full of people who could, you know, build more ships or research the workings of more lore breaking drive cores or whatever).

And don't give me that "mass hysteria" garbage. Yeah, that might be the response of a dumb minority, but I fail to see how it is a valid concern when that is very much not what happens when the Reapers literally do show up (instead, most people resist or die trying). We actually see a microcosm of what happens with a few of the non Council species, whom do publicly acknowledge the existence of the Reapers (quarians, geth, rachni, krogan). Their response isn't "FLEE WE'RE ALL DOOMED". They all take concerted (albiet disconnected and, in one case, strategically at odds) measures to prepare for the Reapers in their own ways (whether through building up their military/technological base, unifying or attempting to improve their strategic position).

Moreover, you're wrong. The tech to defeat the Reapers clearly exists, it's sitting below Mars and in a Thessia temple. I wonder how much more quickly it'd have been found if there had actually been a concerted effort at looking for, constructing and utilizing it in the two years prior? Doubly so if you bring in the intellectual and productive forces of the galaxy which are being ignored. 

I mean, we're talking months to discover and build this thing when Liara decided to stop playing spy. Had she or someone of similar competence been put to work looking for such solutions sooner (let's say two years sooner, like the Council said they were going to start doing) Reapers would have been space junk at the edge of the galaxy at the very latest when Shep and his Cipher was magically resurrected (or the Prothean broken out of the Refrigerator). Everyone who died in the Reaper war is the Council's (or rather, the leadership behind them, they're just talking heads) fault. These billions of deaths are a direct result of this Council knowingly making a choice to do next to nothing and leave practically everyone to their fate based on what you are saying is apparently defeatist speculation. 

Stop defending this shitshow writing. The Council leadership are at best criminally incompetent buffoons who seemingly don't care at all that the people they represent are all going to die horribly at an indeterminate point in the future. That was the whole point. They're a narrative punching bag designed simply to obstruct the player's goals and further the simplistic space Jesus Idiot Plot involving Cerberus & Co.

The fact is that it wasn't even necessary, they could have simply had the Council start work immediately looking for ways to win and mobilizing the forces of the galaxy (hell, you could even have the player do this in ME2 instead of participating in an irrelevant idiot subplot that would have worked itself out anyway when the Collectors attempted to attack Earth with a couple of those pathetic cruisers). Perhaps then the Crucible would have felt less like a last minute asspull and more like something that is the result of the galaxy actually making a concerted effort to save itself.

Hell, they could even slip this whole Ark thing in on the side. I'm sure they wouldn't be short volunteers. Hell, have all the hysterical, defeatist cowards working on it. They should be well incentivized, and it's better than having them sit on their arses praying to the Goddess for salvation or whatever, and much better than having them completely unaware that they're even in danger.

[Vortex13]

 
Can someone explain this to me (either QMR or someone who liked the post) because I honestly don't get this point. How do they become war criminals? How do they "allow billions to perish"?
 
The way I see it, there is nothing they can do for the "billions of people" no matter what. You can't build an armada to defeat the reapers in 3 years, even if you had the tech to do it (which they don't). So in that sense, whether there was an ARK program during ME2 or not is completely irrelevant to how the reaper war goes.
It's also not self preservation (the council itself is not leaving) but preservation of the species (plural). I really don't see how there is anything bad about this contingency plan.

 

 

For me at least, it's not so much that they are evil/grossly incompetent because they had a contingency plan in mind, but rather that they clearly didn't do anything to help prepare the galaxy for a threat they deemed real enough to want to create a "Plan B" for.

 

You are right that making new fleets wouldn't have worked, but they could at least have started proper diplomatic channels with species like the Quarians, Geth, and Krogan during the time between ME 1 & 3 instead of just waiting for Shepard to attempt it at literally the last minute. Clearly the Council see the Krogan as worth 'preserving' due to their presence on the ARK, but they didn't even bother starting talks with the clans for their involvement in the war until after the Reapers invaded, and then only because Shepard kept nagging at them to actually try and co-operate.

 

Speaking of co-operation, where was this sense of camaraderie, between the Council species at least, when the invasion proper begins in ME 3? The various heads of state are apparently able to commit to an agreement concerning the preservation of society via the ARKs, but they aren't working together when the Reapers show up on their doorstep? 

 

This lack of communication, co-operation, and collective "caught with their pants down" mentality stands in stark contrast to a galactic government that was supposedly far-sighted enough to construct seed vessels using never-before-seen technology as a contingency plan.

[MrFob]

- The council couldn't be sure that they couldn't win conventionally? They must have heaps of combat data from the battle of the Citadel. I say, they might have been sure.

- They had the tech because it lies under Mars? Well, they don't know about it, so they don't have it at the relevant time. Can't really blame them for not counting on dumb luck.

- Have more Arks built by the public? My guess would be that they can't, the tech to go to Andromeda must be something really crazy in the first place, thus I think it's likely that the number of Arks would be limited, no matter how many workers you put to the task. In any case, this is easy to write up properly (if BW will do it is another matter entirely).

- Mass hysteria doesn't break out? In the case of the invasion, there are no alternatives anymore. Give the same information to people 2 years earlier with a limited number of seats on a boat to get them out of danger and things might very well be

different.

Besides, this is not the primary reason to keep the project secret. The primary reason for that is the reapers themselves. With a smaller circle, chances of them finding out are limited. Tell everyone and you basically make sure the reapers find out about it (no one could know if there wasn't another sentinel like Sovereign monitoring).

- Why didn't they try to prepare the galaxy for the reapers more in other ways? I agree, this is stupid, but then, maybe they did through back channels and failed. The council actually has pretty bad relations with almost everyone who is not already part of their community.

 

Look, I am not saying that the council is suddenly great or that this story wouldn't have its problems (far as I can see, it's barely possible to come up with one that doesn't). What I am saying is that having gone with the Ark plan would have been one of the smarter things for the council to do and it certainly wouldn't make them into war criminals or otherwise malevolent people.

[Quarian Master Race]

- The council c couldn't be sure that they couldn't win conventionally? They must have heaps of combat data from the battle of the Citadel. I say, they might have been sure.

You mean that battle they won? Great argument for defeatism there.
 

- They had the tech because it lies under Mars? Well, they don't know about it, so they don't have it at the relevant time. Can't really blame them for not counting on dumb luck.

It's not dumb luck if you actually made an effort to actively increase your chances of finding such things by going to look for them. The Citadel was previously saved by Prothean tech (Vigil and Ilos) someone just happened to discover because they were looking. Mobilizing the proper elements of society to start digging through ruins couldn't possibly hurt. Neither could spilling the beans on the Thessia beacon (well, hurt anything except maybe the Asari's racial pride, which will hardly matter when they're reduced to slushy in a big robo-Cthulu body, anyway).

 

- Have more Arks built by the public? My guess would be that they can't, the tech to go to Andromeda must be something really crazy in the first place, thus I think it's likely that the number of Arks would be limited, no matter how many workers you put to the task. In any case, this is easy to write u properly (if BW will do it is another matter entirely).

A possibility, but I don't see how more people putting their input to the project could possibly hurt. Even if you are limited by raw resources (say magic, impossible to reverse engineer Reaper drive cores), you'd still reduce the time it took to get the project off the ground and moving, or been able to further refine all other aspects of the "Ark" ships (say improving their carrying capacity, or reliablity of non-Reaper systems).

 

- Mass hysteria doesn't break out? In the case of the invasion, there are no alternatives anymore. Give the same information to people 2 years earlier with a limited number of seats on a boat to get them out of danger and things might very well be

different.

Besides, this is not the primary reason to keep the project secret. The primary reason for that is the reapers themselves. With a smaller circle, chances of them finding out are limited. Tell everyone and you basically make sure the reapers find out about it (no one could know if there wasn't another sentinel like Sovereign monitoring).

 

Once again, a silly concern (protect the people from killing themselves because someone is going to kill them?) that categorically proves not to be true. If this is the Council's reasoning, it simply proves their incompetence at decision making when this eventually isn't the case.

We also have a perfect case study they could've used without even mentioning the responses of the admittedly rather "alien" societies of the Rachni and Geth. The quarians didn't turn tail and run. They were publicly discussing strategies against the Reapers as early as Ascenscion and actively putting plans to counter into motion as of ME2. Why the hell would the Council societies composed of similar humanoids act any differently. Are the billions of them all complete wusses who are incapable of confronting their own mortality?

The Reapers are still stuck in dark space looking for a way in as far as the Council knows. As far as anyone knows, they are already trying their damnedest to get there and start the invasion (until ME3 of course, when they suddenly decide to activate their Plot Engines). Why should the Council care if the Reapers know what they're doing? What are they gonna do in response, turn them into slushie more painfully? Will Harbinger use more scathing one liners or a more sex-offendery sounding voice as punishment?

 

- Why didn't they try to prepare the galaxy for the reapers more in other ways? I agree, this is stupid, but then, maybe they did through back channels and failed. The council actually has pretty bad relations with almost everyone who is not already part of their community.

 

Look, I am not saying that the council is suddenly great or that this story wouldn't have its problems (far as I can see, it's barely possible to come up with one that doesn't). What I am saying is that having gone with the Ark plan would have been one of the smarter things for the council to do and it certainly wouldn't make them into war criminals or otherwise malevolent people.

Yes, this is another leadership failure, not a defense. Under the Council's direction, multiple, mass scale genocides have occured, virtually everyone hates and distrusts everyone else, no one communicates and no one is using their resources effectively. Further, when the perfect opportunity for unification comes up (existential threat to everyone) they somehow manage to not only do next to nothing, but even make relations worse by actively or passively intensifying antagonism of groups they've ostracized (quarians, geth, krogan, rachni etc.). As much as we make fun of them, the UN is literally more effective in the real world. They don't kick out member states for petty political reasons or small violations of the charter, nor conduct genocides in response to conflicts, as at the very least it's better to have leverage over someone.

"Smarter" by the standards of the Council's previous plan isn't really saying much. They were pretty much actively trying to lose the war and get everyone killed, and the only reason they don't succeed is because the Reapers are seemingly trying to lose even harder (why didn't they "floor the gas" immediately when Sovereign got into trouble instead of dithering for three years? Why use the Heretic geth instead of Collectors? Why didn't they just take the Citadel first and shut off the relays instead of pointlessly attacking irrelevant Earth?).

C'mon, I know you're a smart guy given previous analysis of narrative elements I've read from you. You don't have to defend this nonsense. The entire main plot was unplanned and poorly executed. As a result leadership characters act more like obstructionist plot devices than real, believable people reacting to the setting around them. The current sideproject is a contrived band aid for a setting that was intended to be killed with the ME3 ending. We can still enjoy it despite this.

[SNascimento]

First off its a game and second we have massive amounts of money shoved into this endeavor and technology to go colonize Andromeda. ANDROMEDA!!!!!! And expedition to explore and colonize. We obviously get there and the rest is up to us. We now have the power to make a new life for our People in this Galaxy. It isn't comparable to a real life endeavor because we are far from becoming a galactic society and we are not as technologically advanced as in ME. Intergalactic travel is way different than colonizing a country or even another planet.

You see, your arguments are the equivalent of a 5 year old kid repeating over and over again "I'll go because I want to!". When you try to find any actual support for such a project on real history, you won't find any. Becuase it doesn't make sense! People just don't invest an unimaginable amount of money in a extremely high risk project with absolute no return.

[shodiswe]

Never said it did. But it doesn't have to be about the reapers. Bioware keeps talking about our need for exploration. That's why I believe we are making the trip. If it's because of reapers then whatever but nobody really acknowledged their existence and if they did in secret whatever. You'd think the council races would've banded together earlier if they knew what was coming. They weren't sure and Shepard was dead. But it took a while to build all those arks. I believe it makes more sense to go to Andromeda because we want to explore and cook someplace new. To meet new races and visit the unknown. It's a whole different ballpark.

 

Lore said that less than 1% of our galaxy was explored, that doesn't really encourage people to go all the way to Andromeda to find new places to explore. I guess one could, if you're hoping to find something special. 

[SKAR]

You see, your arguments are the equivalent of a 5 year old kid repeating over and over again "I'll go because I want to!". When you try to find any actual support for such a project on real history, you won't find any. Becuase it doesn't make sense! People just don't invest an unimaginable amount of money in a extremely high risk project with absolute no return.

We have the money, we have the technology, we have the will. Off to Andromeda!!!!!! Also don't tell me, tell bioware. That's what they said. Our purpose for going is to colonize and explore the unknown. We are colonizing a new galaxy. That in itself is a reason to give em funding. Whether you like it or not we are going Andromeda. Plus the endings don't support your case to stay. If we were to find new races in MW it would mess with lore and Canon. Why fund a trip to Mars? The moon? Satellites and probes for space exploration. Spare me the BS. It's either reapers or it isn't. We'll see when mass effect initiation comes out.

[MrFob]

You mean that battle they won? Great argument for defeatism there.

Yes, I maean the battle in which the entire military might of the galaxy got their asses handed to them by a single reaper, you know, the battle they won because of not reproducible circumstances.
 

It's not dumb luck if you actually made an effort to actively increase your chances of finding such things by going to look for them. The Citadel was previously saved by Prothean tech (Vigil and Ilos) someone just happened to discover because they were looking. Mobilizing the proper elements of society to start digging through ruins couldn't possibly hurt. Neither could spilling the beans on the Thessia beacon (well, hurt anything except maybe the Asari's racial pride, which will hardly matter when they're reduced to slushy in a big robo-Cthulu body, anyway).

I don't disagree that they could have done more (as I said). But the rather idiotic situation at the beginning of ME3 is not made any worse by them actually doing something (like an Ark program).
 

A possibility, but I don't see how more people putting their input to the project could possibly hurt. Even if you are limited by raw resources (say magic, impossible to reverse engineer Reaper drive cores), you'd still reduce the time it took to get the project off the ground and moving, or been able to further refine all other aspects of the "Ark" ships (say improving their carrying capacity, or reliablity of non-Reaper systems).

It could hurt indeed because of the point I after (alerting detractors and reapers alike). Combine that with the fact that they may have anticipated minimal gain and we are set.
 

Once again, a silly concern (protect the people from killing themselves because someone is going to kill them?) that categorically proves not to be true. If this is the Council's reasoning, it simply proves their incompetence at decision making when this eventually isn't the case.

We also have a perfect case study they could've used without even mentioning the responses of the admittedly rather "alien" societies of the Rachni and Geth. The quarians didn't turn tail and run. They were publicly discussing strategies against the Reapers as early as Ascenscion and actively putting plans to counter into motion as of ME2. Why the hell would the Council societies composed of similar humanoids act any differently. Are the billions of them all complete wusses who are incapable of confronting their own mortality?

Not really that silly. Saying "who cares when people kill each their if we are being killed eventually anyway" is way more defeatist than having a secret contingency plan, wouldn't you say?

As for the quarians in Ascension, IIRC, their debates were anything but public (it was a highly secure meeting between Sanders and elect members of the Conclave and Admiralty Board. But even if I remember wrong they were, look at where that got the quarians, it's not like they were any better prepared.
 

The Reapers are still stuck in dark space looking for a way in as far as the Council knows. As far as anyone knows, they are already trying their damnedest to get there and start the invasion (until ME3 of course, when they suddenly decide to activate their Plot Engines). Why should the Council care if the Reapers know what they're doing? What are they gonna do in response, turn them into slushie more painfully? Will Harbinger use more scathing one liners or a more sex-offendery sounding voice as punishment?

You care because you can't be entirely sure of the exact capabilities of the reapers or what other resources they might actually have within the galaxy (as I said above). And they wouldn't even be wrong, look at the collectors or artifacts like object rho.
And if you are working on a plan for some guys to escape the thread and give them a new start that is not threatened by the reapers, than yes, you dam well want to make sure they don't know about it. Hell, after ME1, the council might not even have been sure if the reapers might not be able to follow any Ark ship to Andromeda if they got wind of it. They did however know about Indoctrination and given the existence of QECs, the reapers are not necessarily blind and deaf in dark space.
 

Yes, this is another leadership failure and a perfect reason to get rid of them. Under the Council's direction, multiple genocides have occured, virtually everyone hates and distrusts everyone else, no one communicates and no one is using their resources effectively. Further, when the perfect opportunity for unification comes up (existential threat to everyone) they somehow manage to make relations worse by actively or passively intensifying antagonism of groups they've ostracized (quarians, geth, krogan, rachni etc.). As much as we make fun of them, the UN is literally more effective in the real world. They don't kick out member states for petty political reasons or small violations of the charter, nor conduct genocides in response to conflicts, as at the very least it's better to have leverage over someone.

"Smarter" by the standards of the Council's previous plan isn't really saying much. They were pretty much actively trying to lose the war and get everyone killed, and the only reason they don't succeed is because the Reapers are seemingly trying to lose even harder (why didn't they "floor the gas" immediately when Sovereign got into trouble instead of dithering for three years? Why use the Heretic geth instead of Collectors? Why didn't they just take the Citadel first instead of pointlessly attacking irrelevant Earth?).

C'mon, I know you're a smart guy given previous analysis of narrative elements I've read from you. You don't have to defend this nonsense. The entire main plot was unplanned and poorly executed. As a result leadership characters act more like obstructionist plot devices than real, believable people reacting to the setting around them. The current sideproject is a contrived band aid for a setting that was intended to be killed with the ME3 ending. We can still enjoy it despite this.

As I said, I don't necessarily think it's a great plot. The only thing I was arguing is that it wouldn't make the council more stupid or malevolent in any way (which was in the post of yours, I initially quoted). In fact, I think there is only one alternative plot that might be better and that is if the ARK program would actually only take shape during the time of ME3 (possibly with a much more long term preparation, done for a different project that then gets jury rigged into an escape plan).

However, from the trailer, it looks like people are boarding the Ark ships from an unoccupied earth, so I have to assume that they start either before or after ME3. IMO, having the plot start after ME3 is not an option as it has a lot of drawbacks that were discussed elsewhere. Having them start without a need to escape the reapers means that there would have to be a whole other lot of questions to be answered, such as "Why did they go?" (as I said, pure exploration won't really work) and "Why have we never heard of this?".
I do believe, that given all the information we have right now, this plot (council secretly launched the Arks before ME3) - while admittedly also requiring a lot of pushing and shoving to make work - is the least problematic one to go with and IMO it even has the positive side effect to make the council look a bit better than they do right now.

[SKAR]

Lore said that less than 1% of our galaxy was explored, that doesn't really encourage people to go all the way to Andromeda to find new places to explore. I guess one could, if you're hoping to find something special.

We know little about our own ocean yet we want to go to Mars and beyond. Don't give me that. Its just thousand of volunteers out to colonize and explore a new galaxy. The people who stay behind can explore the galaxy. Don't give me that 1℅ bs. It carries no weight. It's like saying let's stay in Europe and never go to America or let's stay on earth and not go to Mars. Its just like migrating to another country only on a much bigger scale obviously. We are immigrants in Andromeda. We are the foreigners. MW is the mother land. We are immigrants coming into a new land. Whether or not it's because of the reapers is unknown for now. But that new book is coming out soon. I'm very interested to see how it'll explain everything.

[SNascimento]

We know little about our own ocean yet we want to go to Mars and beyond. Don't give me that. Its just thousand of volunteers out to colonize and explore a new galaxy. The people who stay behind can explore the galaxy. Don't give me that 1℅ bs. It carries no weight. It's like saying let's stay in Europe and never go to America or let's stay on earth and not go to Mars. Its just like migrating to another country only on a much bigger scale obviously. We are immigrants in Andromeda. We are the foreigners. MW is the mother land. We are immigrants coming into a new land. Whether or not it's because of the reapers is unknown for now. But that new book is coming out soon. I'm very interested to see how it'll explain everything.

You know, yesterday I thought you might have been drunk. Now... I don't even... 

[SKAR]

You know, yesterday I thought you might have been drunk. Now... I don't even...

I don't drink. Not 21 yet and it's bad for your health. I just have a thing for arguing constantly with the ignorant.

[MrFob]

No one went to America, just to explore, they wanted to find a trade route to India, i.e. they wanted to make a profit. Also, no one from Europe colonized America for the sake of exploration, they did so because they needed resources/land to settle and claim, i.e. they wanted to get rich (and the people who sent them wanted to get rich from exclusive trade).

 

No one went to the moon simply for the sake of exploration, it was a political mandate brought on by the dynamics of the cold war (and the possible strategic importance of space). And look, we never went there again when it turned out there was not much to be had there for the moment. The next plans for possible trips to the moon are meant for when mining very rare substances like rare minerals or helium 3 might become cost effective.

 

Same is going to be true for Mars, the real push to go there will at least have an economic or political component.

 

Most importantly, all of the above mentioned projects had plans for a return trip, which makes the whole thing all that much more viable, both, for those that go as well as for those that don't go but develop and finance the whole thing. Even if you were to go just "for science", there isn't really much point for anyone who's not coming along to help you if you don't plan on coming back and share what you've learned. If the Ark ships really are both, exploration AND colony ships that were never supposed to return, than there must be a dam good reason to send them.

[Monk]

I just remembered this from the start of ME2 when you videochat with the Council in Anderson's office.

 

They say there is no proof of the Reapers, and when you tell them to check for Vigil on Ilos, they say no trace of it was found.

 

 

What if...

they did find sth. In fact, found everything and realised that the Reapers were coming. They decided to take action but not let this be known by people outside their closed circle. Maybe they found plans there relating to the mini mass relay, and during Shepard's death, constructed a prototype Ark or whatever.

 

This doesn't answer the question on when exactly they leave, but what do you guys think? Is there anything that would contradict this?

 

Let's take into consideration the situation from the council's angle. A new Spectre operative believes that a super-advanced machine race is expected to decimate all the known intelligent species in the galaxy. There's no hard proof as all such evidence so far has been destroyed by said agent. What's left is definitely mind-boggling but not totally beyond what's seen with the mass relays and Citadel. How do you react, as a politician? "Lulz … Yes, 'Reapers'."

 

It's likely, considering all the dead Reapers found later, that the council knew of the species but had grand, grand hopes they no longer existed, especially considering the amount of damage they could possibly do. Even if they didn't know of the Reapers already, the fact of something so powerful that even their standard fleet vessels couldn't destroy one worth a damn would make them ****** their pants and demand research to secretly figure out how, if possible, to handle the threat.

 

Now, does this require them to tell every special agent they have? Nooo… It's best to keep the number of people who know about the secrets to a minimum. It cuts down on leaks and allows them to choose the specialists they need for a task. So, in the end, did they lie? Yes, undoubtedly because once the story was released, Shepard was no longer an asset which could best serve them on this problem. Yet.

 

 

(i apologize if this view's already been stated)

[SKAR]

No one went to America, just to explore, they wanted to find a trade route to India, read: They wanted to make a profit. Also, no one from Europe colonized America for the sake of exploration, they did so because they needed resources/land to settle and claim, i.e. they wanted to get rich (and the people who sent them wanted to get rich from exclusive trade).

No one went to the moon simply for the sake of exploration, it was a political mandate brought on by the dynamics of the cold war. And look, we went back then but when it turned out there was not much be had there at the moment, we never went back. The next plans for possible trips to the moon are meant for when mining very rare substances like rare minerals or helium 3 might become cost effective.


Same is going to be true for Mars, the real push to go there will at least have an economic or political component.

Most importantly, all of the above mentioned project had plans for a return trip, which makes the whole thing all that much viable, both, for those that go as well as for those that don't go but develop and finance the whole thing. If the Ark ships really are both, exploration AND colony ships that were never supposed to return, than there must be a dam good reason to send them.

But we will go to Mars to colonize. Maybe it is the reapers, maybe it isn't. We'll see. It's a different time though. An expedition of that scale can be compared to modern day events but it's different. The Reapers clearly would be a good reason but there's plenty of evidence to go against it. Maybe there is a sinister motive like the reapers but that's really just about it. Colonising a galaxy is different. Sure people came to America by mistake and they conquered and took their land but in the universal that is mass effect we are not going to conquer and steal their resources, unless you're and evil son of a ***** and they give you the option, but our job is to explore the Helius cluster for a new home. The reapers are a possibility but then again they may not be and for good reasons. The galaxy isnt overpopulated so that wouldn't work. We arent sending resources back. It's one of two factors, the reapers are coming, maybe shep is right, let's send multiple ships with thousands or millions of volunteers to Andromeda to find a new home for MW races and save them from reaps but let's keep it quiet, or you know what? We live in an age where there are limitless possibilities, we've seen many planets, met different alien races, seen how different societies function,etc. But what's beyond l this? What's in Andromeda? We don't know? We can explore, colonize, meet new civilizations even. It would be an incredible feat. I want to know what lies beyond. I'm curious. Bioware tells us about our need for exploration and whatnot. That's what I base my beliefs on. If Reapers are an added cause then so what? We are still curious as to what's out there and we know Andromeda is out there. Exploration is a large chunk of why we do things. If we are going to Mars because of resources or Overpopulation than whatever. But I want to explore that place. You can patronize and criticise me all you want, I'm just going off what bio has been saying. What about explorers who explore the Amazon or the deep ocean, many of the people going to Andromeda are probably no different. They volunteered to go. They're curious and despite its "secret" motive they believe they're on an expedition to colonize and explore. And that's what they are gonna do. You have to think about colonising a galaxy in a different context compared to colonising something like a continent or a single planet. Keep in mind that ME is set in a futuristic universe. It's a whole different time.

[fhs33721]

You mean that battle they won? Great argument for defeatism there.

You mean the battle, where Sovereign a single Reaper, was kicking the collective ass of an entire human fleet with ease The one they only won because of some inexplicable nonsense where Sovereign flopped on his back like a dead spider when Sheaprd destroyed a red glowing Saren husk? Let's face it they only won that battle because Sovereign read the script and said: "Wait what? I'm supposed to loose here. How the hell would that even work? Ah, screw it, I'll just fall over dead for no reason."

[MrFob]

Bioware tells us about our need for exploration and whatnot. That's what I base my beliefs on.

I agree, from the trailer and everything we've seen so far, it's very possible that BioWare will go the route of "we go because we can". This may very well be the case. Personally, I hope there is more to it because even in the ME universe as shown so far, mankind (and in fact all the races in the Milky Way that we know) follow very much the same patterns as we do today. Just read the descriptions of colony worlds in the Galaxy Map and you'll see that for all of them, there are sociopolitical, strategic or economic reasons for the state of their development.
I always like this approach because it is a "realistic" scenario (within the universe of course). For a project as massive (and central to the plot) as the trip to Andromeda, I'd hope they come up with a very good backstory.
At least the fact that they want to dedicate an entire novel to it bodes well, IMO. I am also curious to see what they come up with in the end.
 

If Reapers are an added cause then so what? We are still curious as to what's out there and we know Andromeda is out there. Exploration is a large chunk of why we do things. If we are going to Mars because of resources or Overpopulation than whatever. But I want to explore that place. You can patronize and criticise me all you want, I'm just going off what bio has been saying. What about explorers who explore the Amazon or the deep ocean, many of the people going to Andromeda are probably no different. They volunteered to go. They're curious and despite its "secret" motive they believe they're on an expedition to colonize and explore. And that's what they are gonna do. You have to think about colonising a galaxy in a different context compared to colonising something like a continent or a single planet.

Yes, lot's of individuals have an explorer's spirit. I dare say, I am one myself and I made my life choices accordingly. But as someone who is constantly trying to secure funding for research without an immediate tangible benefit, let me tell you it is dam hard (I wish it weren't, would make my life a lot easier) and the bigger and more expensive the project, the more tangible profit investors want to see, no matter if that's governments, businesses or other organizations. There may be individual philanthropists that sponsor truly abstract research but they are usually far and few between and I think having something like the Ark program financed by one or two people would simply be too much of a stretch (hope it's not frigging TIM ).

And of course, I also want to explore Andromeda. I just wouldn't want the entire experience of playing the game and going forth and exploring being based on a premise that I deem completely implausible (both in the real world and in the ME universe as we know it). That's the one thing that could ruin it for me even if the rest of the game turns out great. So I am just hoping that BW will give us a background to this entire setting that doesn't make me cringe all the time at least.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

No one went to America, just to explore, they wanted to find a trade route to India, i.e. they wanted to make a profit. Also, no one from Europe colonized America for the sake of exploration, they did so because they needed resources/land to settle and claim, i.e. they wanted to get rich (and the people who sent them wanted to get rich from exclusive trade).

 

No one went to the moon simply for the sake of exploration, it was a political mandate brought on by the dynamics of the cold war (and the possible strategic importance of space). And look, we never went there again when it turned out there was not much to be had there for the moment. The next plans for possible trips to the moon are meant for when mining very rare substances like rare minerals or helium 3 might become cost effective.

 

Same is going to be true for Mars, the real push to go there will at least have an economic or political component.

 

Most importantly, all of the above mentioned projects had plans for a return trip, which makes the whole thing all that much more viable, both, for those that go as well as for those that don't go but develop and finance the whole thing. Even if you were to go just "for science", there isn't really much point for anyone who's not coming along to help you if you don't plan on coming back and share what you've learned. If the Ark ships really are both, exploration AND colony ships that were never supposed to return, than there must be a dam good reason to send them.

No one went to the moon...

 

No one...

 

we never went there...

 

 

 

 

Same is going to be true for Mars....

[straykat]

 

No one went to the moon...

 

No one...

 

we never went there...

 

 

 

Don't make me call Buzz Aldrin on you.

[En Es Ef Dubyu]

Don't make me call Buzz Aldrin on you.

Who's Balzz Udrin?