199 réponses à ce sujet

[Arshei]

Evil is a strong word. Like I imagine a straight up villain or something.

 

I'm saying it could be simply an ignorant choice. Or someone simply not going full Anders mode right in the middle of the game. I mean, that's what Anders is good for. He does that already. But not every character has to see eye to eye to him right away. It doesn't mean they're evil.

 

Evil to me is selling Fenris to slavery or killing Bethany.

 

The assignment of Loghain is Lawful Evil, Hitler was Lawful Evil, Cersei is Lawful Evil, being Evil means you do choices that aren't morally good for other people, but some times they are necesary.

 

The Connor choice is the best example.

Lawful Evil = Killing Connor

Neutral = Killing Isolde

Lawful Good = Ask for the mages

I'm not saying being evil is.. evil... Choices must be made, it depends if you believe the means justify the end, that's why I always kill Connor, the kid is an abomination, Wynne says that abominations are never the same again if you killed the demon in the fade, and I don't have the luxury to spent a month going to the circle of mage for a simple kid.

[Catilina]

Evil is a strong word. Like I imagine a straight up villain or something.

 

I'm saying it could be simply an ignorant choice. Or someone simply not going full Anders mode right in the middle of the game. I mean, that's what Anders is good for. He does that already. But not every character has to see eye to eye to him right away. It doesn't mean they're evil.

Someone who wants to be free, and did not do anything wrong, sent to the jail are bad thing. Hawke an apostate (or have apostate in the family), if s/he think that it's good, then s/he him/herself would go inside. (Or sent the sister into the Circle) All other are illogical with a good character, or evil/hypocrite.

[straykat]

Someone who wants to be free, and did not do anything wrong, sent to the jail are bad thing. Hawke an apostate (or have apostate in the family), if s/he think that it's good, then he him/herself would go inside. (Or sent the sister into the Circle) All other are illogical with a good character, or evil/hypocrite.

 

If all literature was so straightforward, every story would only be a couple of pages long. The drama and confusion and conflict make it fun.

 

I don't like sending Ella back either, personally.. but to just categorize every choice as good or evil is way too hardcore for me.

[Inkvisiittori]

 

Players are demanding more variety of options (include those who tend toward pure insanity apparently)but at the same time they refuse to have to bear the proper outcomes for it.Why the npcs around a protagonist should follow someone which is so psychotic and insane that will kill out of pure pettiness?

Imagine an Inquisitor who is able to retain their position despite their insanity..that would put at  odds the credibility of the story.. not that the story of DAI is coherent  but still is better to not make it even more unbelivable.

 

 

If you feel it makes the story unbelievable then you do not choose those options. But there are others who want those choices in their game and why should they not have them? Just because the option is there for others should not ruin the game for you. 

 

I do agree that all choices should have consequences... For example I love how Iron Bull can turn on you if you made him stay loyal to the Qun. Or Leliana & Wynne can leave if you defile the Sacred Ashes. And smaller things like how differently Solas reacts to Inquisitor he loves and Inquisitor hates in Trespasser. There should be more of that.

 

As to "why anyone would follow such a person" - well this is good time to remind that companion characters should be as diverse as possible. I feel this has not always been the case - for example all major characters from Tevinter - Dorian, Calpernia, Maevaris - so far have been "the good Tevinter" wanting to reform it or change the more morally questionable aspects of it - or all the city elf companions so far - Zevran, Fenris, Sera -  have been not "elfy" as in not from the alienage but rather someone who have lived as part of human culture (Fenris as Danerius' pet, Zevran as Antivan Crow and Sera as noblewoman's adopted daughter and later a Red Jenny). They have all been more involved in human culture than the alienage one. I would like to see both true Tevinter loyalist and a true City Elf (someone like Shianni who was born in alienage and has lived there their whole life and is actually part of that elven culture).

[German Soldier]

snip

If the options make no sense they shouldn't be there.

Example from DAO:

The option of abandoning Redcliffe in DAO is a choice that shouldn't be available because it make no sense and it does not break the game only because somehow with a miraculously plot armor Tegan survive and tell you the location of the passage to enter in the castle.

[straykat]

The assignment of Loghain is Lawful Evil, Hitler was Lawful Evil, Cersei is Lawful Evil, being Evil means you do choices that aren't morally good for other people, but some times they are necesary.

 

The Connor choice is the best example.

Lawful Evil = Killing Connor

Neutral = Killing Isolde

Lawful Good = Ask for the mages

I'm not saying being evil is.. evil... Choices must be made, it depends if you believe the means justify the end, that's why I always kill Connor, the kid is an abomination, Wynne says that abominations are never the same again if you killed the demon in the fade, and I don't have the luxury to spent a month going to the circle of mage for a simple kid.

 

Hitler and Cersei are still different. They barely liked their own people. Loghain loves them. Ahem. At least the humans.

[Catilina]

If all literature was so straightforward, every story would only be a couple of pages long. The drama and confusion and conflict make it fun.

 

I don't like sending Ella back either, personally.. but to just categorize every choice as good or evil is way too hardcore for me.

An uninformed man (for example a commoner) would see that this is not a wrong decision. But Hawke fled with his/her family throughout his/her life away from the Circle. Simply unbelievable that s/he think, seems good idea to send into the Circle anyone. 

[straykat]

An uninformed man (for example a commoner) would see that this is not a wrong decision. But Hawke fled with his/her family throughout his/her life away from the Circle. Simply unbelievable that s/he think, seems good idea to send into the Circle anyone. 

 

Explain Carver then. 

 

You're not giving much room for roleplay. I want to agree that sending her is bad, but I don't like the idea that there's a crystallized story for everyone and they're evil if they don't do it.

[Inkvisiittori]

 

If the options make no sense they shouldn't be there.

Example from DAO:

The option of abandoning Redcliffe in DAO is a choice that shouldn't be available because it make no sense and it does not break the game only because somehow with a miraculously plot armor Tegan survive and tell you the location of the passage to enter in the castle.

 

 

If the option makes no sense to you then don't choose it. There are others to who the option does make sense and that is why it should be there. Just because you don't understand or like something is no reason to deny it from those who do understand and like it.

[Catilina]

Explain Carver then. 

 

You're not giving much room for roleplay. I want to agree that sending her is bad, but I don't like the idea that there's a crystallized story for everyone and they're evil if they don't do it.

Later Carver himself writes in a letter, that he is happy, that Bethany never was in the Circle, because the Circle and the Templars are not what he thinked about before.

 

(Carver just a defiant boy.)

 

I can rolepalying that, just I dont think, this is a "good" decision. This is a "lawful" decision, but not good.

[Inkvisiittori]

An uninformed man (for example a commoner) would see that this is not a wrong decision. But Hawke fled with his/her family throughout his/her life away from the Circle. Simply unbelievable that s/he think, seems good idea to send into the Circle anyone. 

 

Maybe Hawke did not agree with his family about breaking the Chantry's law. Maybe he always thought that all mages - including his own father and sister - belong in the Circle. Then it is not unbelievable at all that he would send any apostate he meets back to the Circle (or execute them himself if he suspects they are foul bloodmages who have lain with demons and can breed only abominations).  

[Arshei]

 

If the options make no sense they shouldn't be there.

Example from DAO:

The option of abandoning Redcliffe in DAO is a choice that shouldn't be available because it make no sense and it does not break the game only because somehow with a miraculously plot armor Tegan survive and tell you the location of the passage to enter in the castle.

 

 

The choice of going to the circle of mage to save Connor shouldn't be there, Dagna says that it takes 2 weeks and 3 days to travel from Orzammar to the Circle of Mages, and Redcliff is even further away from the Circle, am I supposed to believe Connor went to sleep until my character returns?

[Catilina]

Maybe Hawke did not agree with his family about breaking the Chantry's law. Maybe he always thought that all mages - including his own father and sister - belong in the Circle. Then it is not unbelievable at all that he would send any apostate he meets back to the Circle (or execute them himself if he suspects they are foul bloodmages who have lain with demons and can breed only abominations).  

So why not start with his/her sister? (The double standard are bad)

[Inkvisiittori]

So why not start with his/her sister?

 

Because unfortunately there is no such option given to the player. 

[German Soldier]

If the option makes no sense to you then don't choose it. There are others to who the option does make sense and that is why it should be there. Just because you don't understand or like something is no reason to deny it from those who do understand and like it.

It does not have any sense from an objective point there is nothing subjective here.

If Tegan die is game over because you cannot enter in that castle anymore.

 

The choice of going to the circle of mage to save Connor shouldn't be there, Dagna says that it takes 2 weeks and 3 days to travel from Orzammar to the Circle of Mages, and Redcliff is even further away from the Circle, am I supposed to believe Connor went to sleep until my character returns?

This situation is slightly different from the one of Tegan you can find some roleplay reasons to believe that Connor and the demon will not cause troubles if not irritated by Isolde for some time,you even have the option to let the demon remain and it is still there in DAI and did not caused problems in ten years.Of course if you go to Redcliffe then abandon the quest to go to Orzammar,Brecilian forest,Denerim ecc. you are putting the game credibility in grave difficulties

[Catilina]

Because unfortunately there is no such option given to the player. 

Point taken. (As Mage Hawke arrive in Kirkwall, and s/he immediately goes to the Gallows for report him/herself. Game over...)

[Inkvisiittori]

Point taken. (As Mage Hawke arrive in Kirkwall, and s/he immediately goes to the Gallows for report him/herself. Game over...)

 

Hah, that would have been funny... 

[Arshei]

 

It does not have any sense from an objective point there is nothing subjective here.

If Tegan die is game over because you cannot enter in that castle anymore.

 

This situation is slightly different from the one of Tegan you can find some roleplay reasons to believe that Connor and the demon will not cause troubles if not irritated by Isolde for some time,you even have the option to let the demon remain and it is still there in DAI and did not caused problems in ten years.Of course if you go to Redcliffe then abandon the quest to go to Orzammar,Brecilian forest,Denerim ecc. you are putting the game credibility in grave difficulties

 

 

-

Made deal with demon

“While Eamon planned to send Connor to the Circle of Magi for training, the boy grew strangely ill and the trip was delayed... and then one day Connor simply disappeared entirely. After a frantic search, he was eventually given up for lost. His disappearance remains a mystery to this day.

 

Same as if you let the Circle of Magi for the end of the game? how was supposed to survive Cullen a whole year without food nor water.

[Akiza]

-

Made deal with demon

“While Eamon planned to send Connor to the Circle of Magi for training, the boy grew strangely ill and the trip was delayed... and then one day Connor simply disappeared entirely. After a frantic search, he was eventually given up for lost. His disappearance remains a mystery to this day.

 

 

Is this the epilogue of DAO?

Because in DAI Connor is the same no matter what you did.

[Arshei]

Is this the epilogue of DAO?

Because in DAI Connor is the same no matter what you did.

 

He appears in DA:I if you did the deal with the demon?

[Akiza]

He appears in DA:I if you did the deal with the demon?

He is there in every scenario unless you killed him.

[Inkvisiittori]

He is there in every scenario unless you killed him.

 

No, he is not. My Warden made a deal with the demon and I have never seen Connor in DAI.

[ModernAcademic]

The assignment of Loghain is Lawful Evil, Hitler was Lawful Evil, Cersei is Lawful Evil, being Evil means you do choices that aren't morally good for other people, but some times they are necesary.

 

 

Wow. I'm baffled.

 

I never thought I'd see abstract concepts born on the internet being used to categorize real life events.

 

Kudos for the shadow elite. They really managed to get populations all over the world to replace the formal education system for the parallel system of ideas and abstract concepts inserted and disseminated through the World Wide Web.

 

Imagine what they can disseminate from now on: social, political, ideological and economical "truths", all instantly absorbed by the population without any resistance. The web is now the #1 place for people to learn what (and more importantly, HOW) they are supposed to think tomorrow. 

 

Mind control at its best. First it was the TV. Then the movies. Then the series. Now it's the crap memes on the internet.

 

It's official. Humanity is royally f***** for good. Resistance is futile.

[PhroXenGold]

What resource is saving peasants? what resource is helping in the orphanage of Denerim, what resource is giving poor people money?, etc.

I never said I helped everyone. I helped people that are either beneficial to me to help, or whom helping does not reduce or risk my ability to fight.

 

Since you seem so "logical", you think 3 mages, 3 children and a crazy girl are a good exchange for 20 templars?, I hated how they made choices like "If you side with the mages, you win a new companion, if you side with the templars, you are a bastard, f*ck you"

That should be "You win Wynne with the Mages, you win Cullen/Other templar with the templars", of course you already have Alistair for templars, but if you are a magi warden you already have a warden.

 

First off, it's a hell of a lot more than 3 mages. Secondly, mages are a massive force multiplier. Thirdly, when you make the choice, there's no reason to think you won't also get Templar help. Hell, it makes very little sense that you don't get some templars along with the mages. Given all that just happened, there's no way they're sending mages off unescorted.

 

Uncontrollable? they are better than simply dalish elves, if you want to stop the blight, you prefer the elves of Santa Clous throwing arrows or werewolves?

 

 

The archers probably. Well trained archers are a significantly greater asset to an army than melee troops (see Crecy, Agincourt etc.), especially when the latters' ability to follow orders properly is suspect.

 

 

And excuse me if I don't believe you didn't do Morrigan's ritual.

 

The characters who consider Loghain a useful tool won't do the ritual. The entire concept of it is utterly crazy (Morrigan might claim it's safe but the hell I'm trusting her when it comes to preserving the soul of the thing causing the Blight) and I have someone ideal to make the sacrifice in my place anyway, so why take the risk?

 

As I said though, I have played other characters with other views, and one or two of them have done the ritual. But even among those who don't spare Loghain, most would rather see themselves die than risk letting the Old God's soul survive.

 

Loghain is a useful tool?, you lose Alistair, and if you have to choose between the whiny ***** who followed you the entire game or the traitor who tried to kill you the whole game, sold elves to Tevinter, let Howe do whatever he wanted, etc, the option is clear.

 

Yep, it is clear. You take the highly experienced soldier and exceptional tactician not the naive boy. If you really like Alastair, give him the throne. But bring Loghain along with you to stop the Blight - and if you think he must pay for his crimes, he can be the sacrifice that kills the archdemon.

[PhroXenGold]

The assignment of Loghain is Lawful Evil, Hitler was Lawful Evil, Cersei is Lawful Evil, being Evil means you do choices that aren't morally good for other people, but some times they are necesary.

 

From Hitler's point of view, pretty much everything he did was morally good. From the point of view of most of the rest of humanity, nothing he did was necessary. So how exactly does he fall into your cute little classification?