Questa discussione ha avuto 261 risposte

[Degs29]

There are a couple things to consider here.

 

One, the majority of people, even if disappointed in the ending, didn't spew hate at Bioware.  You can't take the vocal few as representative.

Two, they were definitely devastated by the reaction, and some of them assuredly thought it was unjustified.

Three, whether they were annoyed or not probably depended on the specific person.

Four, if you want evidence that some were annoyed, shoot the star kid in the Extended Cut and see what happens.  Was that a middle finger to fans?  Or simply poking fun at a disappointing situation?

 

Considering the team for ME:A is very different from the team on ME3, it shouldn't be an issue.

[AlanC9]

I thought it would have showed up a bit more in DAI, and yet I got even more power tripping for the player's sake. Go figure.

True, but OTOH, DAI has a fairly cynical view of that power. The Inquisitor gets it, but can't really use it for too much, and only gets it because people believe things about her that aren't true and because she's supported by some elements of the existing power structures.

[UpUpAway95]

This isn't a dig at either, but I'm just wondering if perhaps BioWare is annoyed with certain of their fans' attitudes. If BioWare have any ill feelings toward us, I hope they don't take it out on Ryder. It would be a clever and subtle way of doing it, taking their anger out on our avatars.

Sometimes it feels like BioWare's a little bit peeved off, maybe rightfully so, maybe not.

 

Well, when the uproar over ME3's endings drives employees into therapy (as stated by Flynn about himself in a recent interview), I think a little "resentment" towards the attitudes of some of their so-called fans might be in order.  I think a lot of so-called fans are really on a personal power trip - they just get a kick out of bullying companies, but those ones shouldn't be really calling themselves fans.  Many people today are also basically "unsatisfiable" - no matter how much of an effort goes into something, some people will never think it's "good enough" for them.  Those so-called fans just go from making one unreasonable demand after another.

 

As professionals though, Bioware really doesn't have the option of taking out their frustrations anywhere.  Like any company that offers a public product or service, they have to bury those feelings and just continue to do their best to put out a product/service that people will spend their money on.  Bioware might insert a "running commentary" about fan issues into it's games... much of Mass Effect is such a commentary on a number of different contemporary (at the time the game was being made) societal issues.

 

"So-called fan" behavior/misbehavior online and its effect on corporations and their staff IS a contemporary societal issue being actively "studied" by more than just the likes of Bioware.  For one thing... why do you think that developers seem to be getting more reluctant to pre-release a lot of details about their games... I think that some of it is trying to curtail all the negativity over game details that erupts whenever even minor details are released... just look at the furor here over a minute thing like one asari with eyebrows.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

If I were Bioware, I would be very interested in shifting my fanbase away from the histrionic sense of entitlement I've seen in here. The BSN section of the fanbase (whatever percentage it may actually be) is impossible to please. Bioware games can't just be entertaining-- they must also meet the social needs and adhere to the political beliefs of the BSN.

I imagine that producing a major game title is pretty demanding, even without that kind of pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a constant temptation to deliberately alienate a certain element of the fanbase in order to rebuild with something else. It certainly seems like some games (DA2, for example) have been trying to break the old model and bring in different kinds of gamers.

I can't say I like Bioware very much at this point, bit I can still feel sorry for it. That said, I do still enjoy watching it get pilloried by its fans.

[Paul E Dangerously]

Bioware? Do passive-aggressive slights in-game against people they have a grudge against? Never!

 

As far as the "but they worked hard on it!" logic, that only goes so far. Bioware's got a nasty habit of either giving some sort of backhanded "fix" like ME3's "shoot the starkid" ending, to completely, absolutely ignoring everyone who bought the last-gen version of DAI.

[UpUpAway95]

If I were Bioware, I would be very interested in shifting my fanbase away from the histrionic sense of entitlement I've seen in here. The BSN section of the fanbase (whatever percentage it may actually be) is impossible to please. Bioware games can't just be entertaining-- they must also meet the social needs and adhere to the political beliefs of the BSN.

I imagine that producing a major game title is pretty demanding, even without that kind of pressure. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a constant temptation to deliberately alienate a certain element of the fanbase in order to rebuild with something else. It certainly seems like some games (DA2, for example) have been trying to break the old model and bring in different kinds of gamers.

I can't say I like Bioware very much at this point, bit I can still feel sorry for it. That said, I do still enjoy watching it get pilloried by its fans.

 

I disagree... I don't think any company sets out to just "dump" a portion of it's fan base.  I'm pretty sure their goal has always been to make their games entertaining to as many people as they can.  They are certainly out to attract more fans of different types, but this is more likely due to a desire to expand their fan base overall.

 

Certain writers have certain styles of writing and Mass Effect was based on one that actively comments on social issues right from the start.  Conrad Verner is totally a running commentary on the general issue of "crazed fans" and how they can behave running through all three games.  The game seller at the Citadel has lots of comments about video game culture and several of those contain little "smirkish" references drawn from comments fans made.  I'm pretty sure that the intent of those comments is not to alienate anyone... but to use humor to ease some of the tension and make the situation seem more lighthearted and comical... to try to turn it into a "positive" (They even comment on that sort of technique (i.e. about using humor to deflect tension) in ME1 when Shepard can explain to Liara what Joker's joking is all about.)

 

Of course, sadly, it still hasn't stopped the "so-called fans" for behaving badly... and it likely never will.  We'll have to wait for ME:A's release before we can say whether or not they've continued on the ME "classic" writing style of commenting on such things.  I'm sure, though, that whatever they do, it's won't be because they intend to alienate a portion of their fanbase (although I wouldn't blame them if they wanted to at this point).  It's probably more likely just unavoidable that they will anger some of their "so-called" fans no matter what they do... because, as I've said, some of those "fans" are just completely unsatisfiable and others just take pleasure in trying to bully Bioware about.

[ash2ashes]

well, i mean, i'd be surprised if they weren't? obviously, they're wouldn't be annoyed at every single one, but some people are a bit.... yeah.

[Paul E Dangerously]

There are a couple things to consider here.

 

One, the majority of people, even if disappointed in the ending, didn't spew hate at Bioware.  You can't take the vocal few as representative.

Two, they were definitely devastated by the reaction, and some of them assuredly thought it was unjustified.

 

If we go by the statistics, the vast majority of people who play a Bioware game never even finish it.

[Tantum Dic Verbo]

I disagree... I don't think any company sets out to just "dump" a portion of it's fan base.  I'm pretty sure their goal has always been to make their games entertaining to as many people as they can.  They are certainly out to attract more fans of different types, but this is more likely due to a desire to expand their fan base overall.

 

Certain writers have certain styles of writing and Mass Effect was based on one that actively comments on social issues right from the start.  Conrad Verner is totally a running commentary on the general issue of "crazed fans" and how they can behave running through all three games.  The game seller at the Citadel has lots of comments about video game culture and several of those contain little "smirkish" references drawn from comments fans made.  I'm pretty sure that the intent of those comments is not to alienate anyone... but to use humor to ease some of the tension and make the situation seem more lighthearted and comical... to try to turn it into a "positive" (They even comment on that sort of technique (i.e. about using humor to deflect tension) in ME1 when Shepard can explain to Liara what Joker's joking is all about.)

 

Of course, sadly, it still hasn't stopped the "so-called fans" for behaving badly... and it likely never will.  We'll have to wait for ME:A's release before we can say whether or not they've continued on the ME "classic" writing style of commenting on such things.  I'm sure, though, that whatever they do, it's won't be because they intend to alienate a portion of their fanbase (although I wouldn't blame them if they wanted to at this point).  It's probably more likely just unavoidable that they will anger some of their "so-called" fans no matter what they do... because, as I've said, some of those "fans" are just completely unsatisfiable and others just take pleasure in trying to bully Bioware about.

That's why I said "tempted".  If there were a way to trade persnickety RPG players for something else, they'd probably do it, but they make RPG's.  I'm not sure if catering to BSN has cost Bioware other fans (other than me), so I don't know if they're in danger of a shrinking island of angry fans or not.  I already buy Bioware games behind the market, out of the bargain bin.  The gameplay as improved through the ME series, but I'm not willing to throw much money at them with all of the other stuff I don't like.

 

I know that business demands that they retain the most annoying elements of the fanbase--I just wonder if they don't fantasize about working for a different section of the market. 

[UpUpAway95]

That's why I said "tempted".  If there were a way to trade persnickety RPG players for something else, they'd probably do it, but they make RPG's.  I'm not sure if catering to BSN has cost Bioware other fans (other than me), so I don't know if they're in danger of a shrinking island of angry fans or not.  I already buy Bioware games behind the market, out of the bargain bin.  The gameplay as improved through the ME series, but I'm not willing to throw much money at them with all of the other stuff I don't like.

 

I know that business demands that they retain the most annoying elements of the fanbase--I just wonder if they don't fantasize about working for a different section of the market. 

 

You're misunderstanding me... I don't think they intentionally pander to the most annoying side of their fanbase either.  They just want to make games that are entertaining to as many people as they can... i.e. boost sales, expand, etc.  Some fans like to think that companies pander specifically to them or set out to specifically "get even" with them.  It makes those fans feel powerful and bolsters their self-importance.  It's actually a classic trait of a classic bully.

 

Bioware is probably just really going about their business... trying to make games that appeal to enough people who'll buy them so that they can continue to pay their own salaries and keep their shareholders as happy as possible.  Is the level of fan "backlash" a concern for them... probably because it's affecting the health of their employees.  If Bioware management isn't concerned at this point... I can virtually guarantee that the company that insures their employee health benefits probably is.

[fdrty]

Bioware fans are one of the best example of an unpleaseable fanbase I've ever seen.

 

On one hand, the ME3 ending really was terrible, and Dragon Age 2 was a disappointment, and Inquisition did have terrible hair. I think most Bioware employees probably do understand fan frustrations: many of the decisions which caused those issues were made by 1 or 2 guys high up, which most employees will have had no hand in.

 

On the other hand, stuff like 'Oh there should be a cool female turian with a rainbow pixie haircut that my femshep can romance and is integral to the story!' threads pop up and it's very difficult to take that seriously - Bioware games don't just exist for you and your fantasies and your preferences, and that's something a lot of posters here don't seem to understand. For some people, 'It's not the EXACT game I want it to be' is somehow a flaw which the devs should do something about.

 

Creative types can be funny. Some are very receptive to criticism, and are capable of separating the good from the bad, the relevant comments from irrelevant ones, the intelligent from the stupid. And some take criticism personally, even when that criticism is right on the button - that kind can often deflect and dismiss criticism (key word to see with these types is 'hater'). I am sure that both types exist within a company as big as Bioware, and I have had personal experience with both.

 

But I think fans have to realise that they aren't going to always get the exact game they want to get. These games have to have broad appeal, beyond the kind of people who come to BSN.

 

I also think most fans don't have a clue what development of such a huge game as the ones Bioware makes involves, so they make comments like 'this should have been in the game!' unaware of what implementing that would cost, in time and in money.

 

For me, it's enough that their games are good. Are they perfect? Well, what game is? They don't always get everything right, but they at least try to be receptive of fan complaints, and try new things. And that is enough for me and my 40 quid.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that there is no doubt that at least some of Bioware are mad at at least some of the fans, at least some of the time. They'd have to be saints to not be.

[Kabraxal]

Not sure if it is annoyed, or just accepting that the vocal part of the fanbase, at least on these forums, will just never be happy with Bioware regardless.  The shift from BG2 to other games was not received well from some fans and ever since ME2, the negativity has far outweighed the positivity on this forum.  I think they are probably just going to shrug, make the game they would like to make, and let those that are going to rip them for simply being Bioware at this point, rip them. 

[straykat]

Not sure if it is annoyed, or just accepting that the vocal part of the fanbase, at least on these forums, will just never be happy with Bioware regardless.  The shift from BG2 to other games was not received well from some fans and ever since ME2, the negativity has far outweighed the positivity on this forum.  I think they are probably just going to shrug, make the game they would like to make, and let those that are going to rip them for simply being Bioware at this point, rip them. 

 

 They made the games they wanted to make up to ME3 and DA2 (except when it came to being rushed). I was fine with them. The minute they got so much blowback, they started kowtowing to criticism. I've never been in the "Hater" camp until now --- and it's only because DAI is exactly the opposite of what you say. It's not the game they wanted to make. First, the DA2 expansion got canceled, then reassessing their protagonist at the last year to appease people who wanted multiple races, instead of just focusing on content.

[Cyonan]

I don't really see any reason to be annoyed with the fanbase as a whole when we're such a small percentage of it.

 

Though it's certainly not surprising that they don't post around these parts anymore.

[Kabraxal]

 They made the games they wanted to make up to ME3 and DA2 (except when it came to being rushed). I was fine with them. The minute they got so much blowback, they started kowtowing to criticism. I've never been in the "Hater" camp until now --- and it's only because DAI is exactly the opposite of what you say. It's not the game they wanted to make. First, the DA2 expansion got canceled, then reassessing their protagonist at the last year to appease people who wanted multiple races, instead of just focusing on content.

 

It seemed that Bioware took the canned expansion and found a way to still get it made, just having to work it into what was supposed to be a separate game.   That is just the realities of game development.  That isn't kowtowing to the fans.  As for multiple races, you can view it as kowtowing, but they decided to add more options when either they just had the time suddenly or maybe EA actually gave them that time so Bioware could incorporate more options.  Honestly, DA2 and its cycle can't be judged independent of the perception that it was a rushed title by EA.  After it and ME3, it seems EA has been willing to give Bioware the time they need with both Inquisition and with Andromeda.  I think it is less kowtowing to the fans and more having the actual time to implement more of their plans into the actual release. 

 

And considering that multiple races are added content, Bioware was focusing on content by choosing to reincorporate a beloved aspect of Origins. 

[JamesFaith]

Are they annoyed with fanbase as whole?

Most probably not.

 

Are they annoyed with fanbase on BSN?

I wouldn't be surprised if some BW people will never return here. 

[straykat]

It seemed that Bioware took the canned expansion and found a way to still get it made, just having to work it into what was supposed to be a separate game.   That is just the realities of game development.  That isn't kowtowing to the fans.  As for multiple races, you can view it as kowtowing, but they decided to add more options when either they just had the time suddenly or maybe EA actually gave them that time so Bioware could incorporate more options.  Honestly, DA2 and its cycle can't be judged independent of the perception that it was a rushed title by EA.  After it and ME3, it seems EA has been willing to give Bioware the time they need with both Inquisition and with Andromeda.  I think it is less kowtowing to the fans and more having the actual time to implement more of their plans into the actual release. 

 

And considering that multiple races are added content, Bioware was focusing on content by choosing to reincorporate a beloved aspect of Origins. 

 

It's not added content. It's just tacky.

 

Last but not least, the whole game is just a power trip for the player. Everything you do is rewarded or praised or you're given skills at by default. There's no real roleplaying here, other than to be awesome no matter what you do. I suppose so many complained about not "winning" enough in ME3 and DA2 and they did this instead. There's no tragedy or uneasiness to it. This is the definition of kowtowing, where they're afraid to even risk a challenge for people anymore. 

 

And the races just make it worse. The only reason you'd like it is because you want to be rewarded no matter what as well (but either way, that's gonna happen).

[Sartoz]

 Snip

 

For one thing... why do you think that developers seem to be getting more reluctant to pre-release a lot of details about their games... I think that some of it is trying to curtail all the negativity over game details that erupts whenever even minor details are released... just look at the furor here over a minute thing like one asari with eyebrows.

                                                                                             <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

Actually, the fans' reaction is based on the over the top marketing description hype of a game that utterly fails to deliver.  Mike Laidlaw's "your choice matters", for example, was delivered by the game as a choice between a War Table mission of getting 2 coins or 3 Elfroots (among others). Not something you expected, I'm sure.

 

I'd rather the studio said nothing, to prevent me from firing up my imagined but false expectations. Unfortunately, the art of marketing is to do just that.

[LostScout61]

I'm not a fan of Bioware (or anybody else), nor am I a "Patron of the Arts".  I'm a customer for an entertainment product.  When your job is to sell things to people you cannot afford to be annoyed at your customers, and you absolutely can't let your customers know if you are annoyed at them. It isn't just the people who  you are annoyed with who have a negative reaction to it, everyone who witnesses it comes away with a negative impression.  Putting some passive-aggressive little jabs into your product might make someone feel smugly satisified, but it represents a management failure because it isn't just the people you are mad at that notice it, and it adds up.

 

I sometimes miss the days when developers would interact with people on their forums, but you need a thick skin if you are going to do it.  I'm sure EA's upper management has made it clear to their employees that when you have a fire you don't throw gasoline on it.  The safest course of action is to avoid posting.

[Kabraxal]

It's not added content. It's just tacky.

 

Last but not least, the whole game is just a power trip for the player. Everything you do is rewarded or praised or you're given skills at by default. There's no real roleplaying here, other than to be awesome no matter what you do. I suppose so many complained about not "winning" enough in ME3 and DA2 and they did this instead. This is the definition of kowtowing, where they're afraid to even risk a challenge for people anymore. 

 

And the races just make it worse. The only reason you'd like it is because you want to be rewarded no matter what as well (but either way, that's gonna happen).

 

Added races isn't tacky, it is added value in roleplaying.  Unlike DA2, which was limited, Inquisition was more like Origins in that I could have characters with multiple different backgrounds and branch off into dozens of possible roleplays because of it.  That is a lot of value if you are a roleplaying fan. 

 

As for "always winning"... it's better than the railroading and powerlessness of Shepard in ME3 I'll admit.  I wanted the option of losing in ME3, but not to have any semblance of power and agency stripped from my roleplay and my Shepard turned stupid. In the vanilla Inquisition, at least the "you win' ending did not override my roleplay so completely and the world state was actually quite variable, as proven by Trespasser.  Would I like "you lose" scenarios?  Yeah, I've said that even for Origins.  I want that ending where the Warden is eaten in the final battle or the Inquisitor is smacked down by Corypheus.  But, in being an ongoing franchise, I get why they don't put too much money and effort into "bad endings" since those endings will not be easy to carry over into the next game if you don't railroad that tone like DA2 did. 

 

In a perfect budget free, technologically capable, and well planned world... there would be dozens of endings in the first Dragon Age game that would then blossom into even more endings in DA2 and then basically a wholly different game for each world state come Inquisition.  But let's be honest, that is not going to happen for a long long time... budget wise alone a sequel to such a massively branched game would be exponentially bigger than any release on the market right now. That isn't even taking into the account the manpower it would take to plan out, write, and code for such a divergent story.

 

Until that time, games like Inquisition and Origins handle this type of game development better than DA2 or ME3 did.  DA2 was too constrictive in the roleplay in comparison to the franchise and ME3 stripped player agency completely away with the ending.  The rest of the games did not matter, your choices did not matter, and your roleplay did not matter.  You simply pick a, b, or c (later d) and then get no resolution to the characters or how the world was changed.  There is a reason that, despite being good, ME3 and DA2 are generally viewed as the worst in their respective franchises and Bioware games as a whole.

[KaiserShep]

Man, am I the only one that thinks that the addition of the shoot-the-kid ending is a good thing? I thought it was pretty amusing, especially if you trick friends into doing it because it provides a "surprise ending".

[General TSAR]

The closed the offtopic section and hired outside contractors to act as mods, that goes to show what they think.

[Blueblood]

You mean, the Crew or Squadmates are BioWare, and the Protagonist is the Fanbase? If so, you're right that it's clever and subtle; anything rude or spiteful BW wanna say to or do to their fans, or to certain fans, they can just have the squaddies say or do to the protag, and get away with it, while also venting their frustrations. Two birds, one stone, for them. Or treating our protag like a punching bag, and imagining the face to be that of the fanbase.

I hope that's not the case. But it's funny to think about. Or maybe it's just sad to think about. I dunno.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Bioware? Do passive-aggressive slights in-game against people they have a grudge against? Never!

 

As far as the "but they worked hard on it!" logic, that only goes so far. Bioware's got a nasty habit of either giving some sort of backhanded "fix" like ME3's "shoot the starkid" ending, to completely, absolutely ignoring everyone who bought the last-gen version of DAI.

I agree that "they worked hard on it" on it never should be an excuse not to critique them. At least such an argument would never stop me.

 

Some people think, however, that because the ending was horrible, they have the right to insult these developers as if they were the greatest scum in the MW. For such people nothing goes too far, because treating them like crap is what they deserve. They promote that these developers are absolutely untrustworthy and incapable of creating any of the latest games, except those they like, despite the fact that these "fans" frequent the forums nearly daily.

 

What are your thoughts about that?

[straykat]

Added races isn't tacky, it is added value in roleplaying.  Unlike DA2, which was limited, Inquisition was more like Origins in that I could have characters with multiple different backgrounds and branch off into dozens of possible roleplays because of it.  That is a lot of value if you are a roleplaying fan. 

 

 

There's more roleplaying in Hawke or Shepard imo. DAI's races are pigoenholed into very specific career paths. The only thing unflexible about Hawke is family.. but the character itself doesn't have to worry about many specifics. 

 

Shepard better than Hawke. There's a lot of difference in being an Earthborn/Warhero and an Colonist/Ruthless. Or whatever. And even then, it's so openended that someone's Earthborn/Warhero is much different than another player's.