79 replies to this topic

[Sylvius the Mad]

Technically, it would still have a class of sorts: biotic and non-biotic. I can see this being a balancing issue though. Like, non-biotics automatically have fewer options to go through, since they cannot learn any of the biotic abilities, while biotics have access to absolutely everything.

No it wouldn't. You just make biotic ability a really expensive skill and only allow it to be selected at level 1. Like a background perk that acts as a prerequisite for a wide range of other abilities.

[SKAR]

You know I'm just good with classes for now. But more customization for abilities would be nice.

[Sylvius the Mad]

My Tactical Cloak doesn't boost Liara's damage, however. The main issue with synergy scaling out of control is the player using multiple buffs on themselves.

I'd fix that ny eliminating self-only buffs.

and your character would have been less effective than mine who builds combo damage. There is no "It's better for this situation", my character will straight up always deal more damage than yours does.

That's still no reason to eliminate the option. Yes, I would prefer there be some reason to select either, but just because one is always better doesn't mean we should deprive the player of the choice.

The devs don't know what the player's selection criteria will be.

I can agree to better documentation but this is about offering player choice in builds. I consider it a poor "choice" when one choice is clearly inferior to the other.

It could be better, sure.

But having the choice is better than not having the choice, every time.

There can however also be unforeseen setups. Getting balance good on the first try is incredibly difficult to do no matter how well documented your systems are.

If your goal is perfect balance, sure. But that's a stupid goal. It produces a less credible setting.

[Cyonan]

I'd fix that ny eliminating self-only buffs.

 

I would prefer staying with classes so we can keep iconic abilities like Adrenaline Rush and Tactical Cloak.

 

That's still no reason to eliminate the option. Yes, I would prefer there be some reason to select either, but just because one is always better doesn't mean we should deprive the player of the choice.

The devs don't know what the player's selection criteria will be.

 

Where did you get the notion I wanted to eliminate it when I specifically said that I advocate for better evolution choices?

 

Right now one is a useless evolution that exists only to trick uneducated players. In general, I don't consider that good design. There should be the ability to build a bad character if you just take stuff at random, but everything should have a good build that it's viable in.

 

One of the best examples of a good evolution choice is rank 5 Nova. One increases your cooldown recharge speed by 25% stacking 4 times while the other reduces how much of your barriers Nova consumes from 100% to 50%. It's created the idea of "Full Blast" vs "Half Blast" Vanguard builds because neither is so superior a choice that they always win out.

 

If your goal is perfect balance, sure. But that's a stupid goal. It produces a less credible setting.

 

Perfect balance is impossible without homogenizing everything, but doesn't mean the effort should not be made to make a well balanced game.

 

A credible setting can still be produced. Perhaps more so than leaving the player wondering why enemy combatant don't just use the most effective setup available to them.

[Chealec]

I don't think there's been a really good classless system since Ultima Online - and I don't think it would work with Mass Effect's Biotic > Tech > Shooty triumvirate.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I would prefer staying with classes so we can keep iconic abilities like Adrenaline Rush and Tactical Cloak.

I have zero experience with Adrenaline Rush. And I wasn't thinking of stealth as a buff. Everyone should have access to Tactical Cloak.

Where did you get the notion I wanted to eliminate it when I specifically said that I advocate for better evolution choices?

I didn't say you did. I just wanted to make it clear that I think the existence of choice is valuable in and of itself, regardless of what the choice is.

Right now one is a useless evolution that exists only to trick uneducated players. In general, I don't consider that good design.

That's Monte Cook design. I actually quite like that.

But I still don't understand how that's what your example was. When you say Combo damage, what do you mean? If my playstyle doesn't use these combos, wouldn't I benefit more from increased base damage? It sounds like one option improves the optimal use of the ability, whole the other improves a suboptimal use of the ability. But if that's the use I use, wouldn't that option be better for me?

There should be the ability to build a bad character if you just take stuff at random, but everything should have a good build that it's viable in.

+30% damage is viable. It might not be optimal, but it's viable.

One of the best examples of a good evolution choice is rank 5 Nova. One increases your cooldown recharge speed by 25% stacking 4 times while the other reduces how much of your barriers Nova consumes from 100% to 50%. It's created the idea of "Full Blast" vs "Half Blast" Vanguard builds because neither is so superior a choice that they always win out.

Are these characters somehow directly competing with each other?

A credible setting can still be produced. Perhaps more so than leaving the player wondering why enemy combatant don't just use the most effective setup available to them.

Because people are dumb.

Also, we don't have symmetrical mechanics, so this question doesn't even apply.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't think there's been a really good classless system since Ultima Online - and I don't think it would work with Mass Effect's Biotic > Tech > Shooty triumvirate.

Since no one of those is actually necessary - you could easily have an effective squad of 3 Engineers if the game gave us enough Engineers to do that - I fail to see the problem.

[zeypher]

I wouldn't mind if each class, instead of being assigned specific abilities, were given skill slot of various categories. For example... a Sentinel would have 4 tech slots and 4 biotic slots, An adept 8 biotics slots, Soldier 8 combat slots and so on. It would allow for a lot of build experimentation and allow you to customize to your hearts desire. I really doubt it will happen though.

This is what i would prefer as well. Ideally this is the way to go.

[Cyonan]

I have zero experience with Adrenaline Rush. And I wasn't thinking of stealth as a buff. Everyone should have access to Tactical Cloak.

 

Tactical Cloak also provides a damage increase, but the point stands that I would prefer to stay class based and keep iconic abilities that are self buffs.

 

That's Monte Cook design. I actually quite like that.

But I still don't understand how that's what your example was. When you say Combo damage, what do you mean? If my playstyle doesn't use these combos, wouldn't I benefit more from increased base damage? It sounds like one option improves the optimal use of the ability, whole the other improves a suboptimal use of the ability. But if that's the use I use, wouldn't that option be better for me?

 

Combo damage increases the damage of the biotic explosion you get from comboing different biotic abilities like using Warp followed up by Throw on the same target. In Mass Effect 3 spamming combos is vastly more effective in combat for biotics than not doing so.

 

I don't consider this to be good design when one of the choices is vastly superior. This would be helped by allowing for a build that doesn't use combos which isn't inferior to combo spam on those classes. Part of doing that would have been to make the 30% damage buff evolution better than it currently is.

 

Are these characters somehow directly competing with each other?

 

The point of the example is to show an evolution choice where there isn't a clearly superior choice, like there is with Warp rank 4.

[LiechockiRJ]

I would prefer staying with classes so we can keep iconic abilities like Adrenaline Rush and Tactical Cloak.

 

 

 

need not be eight or eighty.

 

I only play ME2 in Hardcore and ME3 in Insanity, so I know the true power of this two abilities, for example.

 

 

AR fells like cheating. A soldier can absolute destroy a brute or a Scion after activating his ability. Depending on the situation, he can kill 3 Blue Suns with full shields and health or two Krogans with full armor and heatlh on a single use of AR. NO other ability can do that.

 

If I remember well, a single shot of the Black Widow with a proper tatical cloak build takes more then 50% of the Atlas´ armor. I can not think of many foes who survive a shot like that.

 

 

This abilities are good not because you can become invisible or slow down the time, but because the damage boost. 

 

You can keep the classes and add a optional level 1 for exclusive abilitys.

 

For example: Engineers who uses TC to better position themselves on the field, and install a turret, closing their flanks. But their never, NEVER will drop a headshot like the infiltrator.

 

Things more or less like this already.

 

In ME2 you dont need to play with the Engineer or Adpet. Just bring Liara and Tali. 

 

In ME3 there´s not much difference between Tech Armor and....let´s say, defense matrix.

[AlanC9]

No it wouldn't. You just make biotic ability a really expensive skill and only allow it to be selected at level 1. Like a background perk that acts as a prerequisite for a wide range of other abilities.

A level 1 biotic might be relatively weak, then, depending on how many points we start with. But that's how casters work in a lot of systems.

[TevinterSupremacist]

I prefer classes, but in ME, classes don't feel that distinct to me. If anything, I'd like the classes to get even more differentiated.

[capn233]

I am in the class based camp.

 

Classless system would make it more difficult to achieve balance while simultaneously delivering actual variety in powers.

 

With respect to giving a class specific power slots that can be used for whatever, that presents a somewhat similar problem, at least within the class.

 

In general the power systems as in ME2 and 3 were ok, and can be the basis of future systems.  Depending on where you put what evolutions, and how many talent points end up being available, it can allow for diversity of builds.  Of course I would also like for more meaningful evolutions to exist that could alter the power in fundamental ways, the example I usually gave would be an evolution of Shockwave that changes it from something that propagates in one direction, to a unidirectional power with much less range (which would in turn replace Nova).

[UpUpAway95]

They're not games.

They're toys.

I've been saying this for years.

 

Doesn't surprise me that we have differing views about this as well.  We're just oceans and oceans apart, aren't we? Oh, well one more thing we can agree to disagree about.

[Norhik Krios]

Erhm... what does the singleplayer have to do with the multiplayer?

You could have predefined classes like we had in ME3, but have a free skill system in the singleplayer.

For example, you could have a concept of 3 starting classes with 3 huge trees, that are connected.



On the left we have the tech tree, starting as an engineer.


In the middle we have the combat tree, starting as a soldier.


On the right we have the biotic tree, starting as a adept.



From those trees, you could still work your way over to become a vanguard, biotic + combat, or just hop over to become a sentinel, biotic + tech, have hybrid classes that have 2 trees but focus more on one than another. Infiltrator: Primary tree is Tech, secondary tree Combat. Paladin: Primary tree is Combat, secondary tree is Tech, and so on.
Or you could even have a fourth, or fifth or god knows what tree. Maybe we learn about some other force in the nature, similar to biotics but instead of manipulating the cosmos and dark matter, we control more "tribal" forces, the "elements" and have shamanistic powers. Who knows what kind of planets we visit? We could visit planets, that have an intelligent species that just entered the "stone age" and has tribes, that carry strange "supernatural" powers, unknown to the people from the milky way.




Or just leave all of that in the milky way and just choose what you want. The stars are the limit. 

[KrrKs]

I'm for a more flexible system.

I wouldn't mind if each class, instead of being assigned specific abilities, were given skill slot of various categories. For example... a Sentinel would have 4 tech slots and 4 biotic slots, An adept 8 biotics slots, Soldier 8 combat slots and so on. It would allow for a lot of build experimentation and allow you to customize to your hearts desire. I really doubt it will happen though.

Pretty much this!

 

I remember at one similar discussion, where I initially voted for something like selectable'power sets', because of easier balancing.

I think this is the thread.

 

RedCeasar made some good points about this:

>>My idea would be to allow the player to choose from the six classes: Soldier, Engineer, Adept, Infiltrator, Vanguard, and Sentinel.

 

Each class would be given a unique power, plus pre-set class passive. If you kept the current unique power setup, then:

 - Soldier would get Adrenaline Rush and Combat Mastery

 - Engineer would get Combat Drone and Tech Mastery

 - Adept would get Singularity and Biotic Mastery

 - Infiltrator would get Tactical Cloak and Operative Mastery

 - Vanguard would get Biotic Charge and Assault Mastery

 - Sentinel would get Tech Armor and Power Mastery

 

Then based on the class the player chose, you can the select 2 or 4 powers from a list (2 if want ME3 MP size, or 4 if you want ME2 size):

 - Soldier can choose 2/4 combat powers

 - Adept can choose 2/4 biotic powers

 - Engineer can choose 2/4 tech powers

 - Vanguard can choose 1/2 combat powers and 1/2 biotic powers

 - Infiltrator can choose 1/2 combat powers and 1/2 tech powers

 - Sentinel can choose 1/2 tech powers and 1/2 biotic powers

 

And if you want to keep the bonus power system, then each class can then select (if any are unlocked) any available bonus power from a list.

 

Theoretically, at least in my head, this should allow more flexibility among the classes while still retaining some uniqueness. 

 

There are some bad aspects to having a custom class system though:

1. It may overwhelm new players at first as they may be confused and struggle when trying to choose their initial power sets. Providing the player with too many options before they even begin to play may anger them them or turn them off your game, causing them to quit even before they begin to play.

 

2. You are also essentially locking players into their initial power set choices without a respec, unless you provide/allow a respec option that allows them to re-select their power sets. If you lock players into a power set they initially thought would be fun/good but later find out they do not like, will cause them to quit, possibly permanently if they spent hours playing something they hated.

 

3. As some others have pointed out allowing custom-built classes makes it harder to balance all the powers. (Note, I think this is even harder if you keep the ME3 power combo system as it still tends to favor hybrid classes in a lot of circumstances, unless you restrict all classes to 3 powers instead of 5 in my proposal).

 

One possible solution to the above problem is to provide preset builds. for example, you can choose Soldier, then either pick a custom Soldier class, or choose the preset Soldier class.<<

 

I also believe there was another post by Ceasar, where he refined this system with a 'cost' associated to each selectable power. This cost increases with the 'usefulness' of said power, limiting the probability to create totally OP custom classes.

[Cyonan]

need not be eight or eighty.

 

I only play ME2 in Hardcore and ME3 in Insanity, so I know the true power of this two abilities, for example.

 

 

AR fells like cheating. A soldier can absolute destroy a brute or a Scion after activating his ability. Depending on the situation, he can kill 3 Blue Suns with full shields and health or two Krogans with full armor and heatlh on a single use of AR. NO other ability can do that.

 

If I remember well, a single shot of the Black Widow with a proper tatical cloak build takes more then 50% of the Atlas´ armor. I can not think of many foes who survive a shot like that.

 

 

This abilities are good not because you can become invisible or slow down the time, but because the damage boost. 

 

You can keep the classes and add a optional level 1 for exclusive abilitys.

 

For example: Engineers who uses TC to better position themselves on the field, and install a turret, closing their flanks. But their never, NEVER will drop a headshot like the infiltrator.

 

Things more or less like this already.

 

In ME2 you dont need to play with the Engineer or Adpet. Just bring Liara and Tali. 

 

In ME3 there´s not much difference between Tech Armor and....let´s say, defense matrix.

 

This is just a modified version of the current class system, which I'm not opposed to.

 

Though I would set it up so that a Soldier could pick say one "iconic ability" which consists of Adrenaline Rush, Marksman, or Devastator Mode for example. After that, they have a bunch of combat abilities which includes their traditional ammo powers, Concussive Shot, Carnage, etc.

 

Balance of course would still be rough but it would allow for greater customization of our characters while letting BioWare negate some of the bigger issues of a full blown classless system.

 

ME3 MP also gave us a lot of new abilities to help fill out those choices, and they'd probably have to think up a few new ones on top of that.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Tactical Cloak also provides a damage increase, but the point stands that I would prefer to stay class based and keep iconic abilities that are self buffs.

We could add exclusions. Like Adrenaline Rush could cancel Tactical Cloak, so you can't have them both active at the same time.

That wouldn't even be weird. All sorts of systems have abilities that cancel stealth.

Combo damage increases the damage of the biotic explosion you get from comboing different biotic abilities like using Warp followed up by Throw on the same target. In Mass Effect 3 spamming combos is vastly more effective in combat for biotics than not doing so.

But imagine that in a classless system. Then you could well have a character that doesn't have any biotic abilities aside from Warp.

Also, I don't typically like pursuing combos in games like this. They feel too game-y. I remember getting an achievement in DA2 for completing a combo. I must have done it by accident.

I don't consider this to be good design when one of the choices is vastly superior. This would be helped by allowing for a build that doesn't use combos which isn't inferior to combo spam on those classes.

But already, once a no combo character has been build, that combo damage bonus evolution is worthless.

For that character, the other evolution is superior.

[Sylvius the Mad]

A level 1 biotic might be relatively weak, then, depending on how many points we start with. But that's how casters work in a lot of systems.

You could offset that somewhat by making the actual biotic abilities (like Warp) cheaper than non-biotic abilities, thus discouraging extendive hybridization.

[Sylvius the Mad]

1. It may overwhelm new players at first as they may be confused and struggle when trying to choose their initial power sets. Providing the player with too many options before they even begin to play may anger them them or turn them off your game, causing them to quit even before they begin to play.

If players aren't interested in learning the rules, I'm not interested in having them as players.

2. You are also essentially locking players into their initial power set choices without a respec, unless you provide/allow a respec option that allows them to re-select their power sets. If you lock players into a power set they initially thought would be fun/good but later find out they do not like, will cause them to quit, possibly permanently if they spent hours playing something they hated.

Replayability should diminish this problem, as starting over would then be something people do voluntarily.

I also believe there was another post by Ceasar, where he refined this system with a 'cost' associated to each selectable power. This cost increases with the 'usefulness' of said power, limiting the probability to create totally OP custom classes.

Why would any custom system not do this?

[capn233]

This abilities are good not because you can become invisible or slow down the time, but because the damage boost. 
 
You can keep the classes and add a optional level 1 for exclusive abilitys.
 
For example: Engineers who uses TC to better position themselves on the field, and install a turret, closing their flanks. But their never, NEVER will drop a headshot like the infiltrator.
 
Things more or less like this already.
 
In ME2 you dont need to play with the Engineer or Adpet. Just bring Liara and Tali. 
 
In ME3 there´s not much difference between Tech Armor and....let´s say, defense matrix.

As far as ME2 I concerned, I would argue there is a fair amount of utility for the time dilation from Adrenaline Rush.  It was effectively damage reduction combined with increased movement speed, which improved positioning.  Of course the damage was nice.  In ME3 it was relatively less valuable for a couple reasons, but mostly due to changes in the way enemy accuracy worked, and a little bit due to how shield gate changed.  Nevermind that the damage bonus was mediocre, cooldown wasn't great, and the hardening evo was laughable in SP.

 

Tac Cloak invisibility was somewhat similar in ME2 given how poor enemy AI responded to it.  But no improved distance covered.  Ignoring AI stupidity where there was room for improvement, I don't think this power was too bad from a power standpoint in that game, and in fact I generally think it is inferior to most of the other trademark powers.  ME3 is of course a different story, and pure damage with cooldown cheat is the main benefit.

 

In any case, if you had a "flexible" class scheme, I would lock the signature (trademark, whatever) powers to the class most likely.  I don't really know why an Engineer who took Tac Cloak would be an Engineer, for example.  That would basically just be an infiltrator.  Ditto with cloaked Soldier.

[capn233]

Though I would set it up so that a Soldier could pick say one "iconic ability" which consists of Adrenaline Rush, Marksman, or Devastator Mode for example. After that, they have a bunch of combat abilities which includes their traditional ammo powers, Concussive Shot, Carnage, etc.

 

Don't go limiting my role-playing, I want all three simultaneously.  Typhoon at 1000rpm should be balanced.

[Cyonan]

We could add exclusions. Like Adrenaline Rush could cancel Tactical Cloak, so you can't have them both active at the same time.

That wouldn't even be weird. All sorts of systems have abilities that cancel stealth.

 

That would require a fair number of rules about it, and it doesn't guarantee they even catch everything. There's also more than just AR and TC, especially if they bring in abilities from ME3 MP like Geth Hunter Mode.

 

But imagine that in a classless system. Then you could well have a character that doesn't have any biotic abilities aside from Warp.

Also, I don't typically like pursuing combos in games like this. They feel too game-y. I remember getting an achievement in DA2 for completing a combo. I must have done it by accident.

 

That would require Warp be a lot better on its own so that it could actually fill a niche, but right now if we took ME3 and made it classless it would be rendered largely obsolete.

 

Even as a primer for combos, Reave is arguably the best biotic in the game for that because it can hit multiple targets. As a debuff ability, Cryo Blast is better. As a raw damage ability, it's a joke. It can do okay against barriers but Overload and Concussive Shot are better options.

 

So what role does Warp fill in a system where I have access to every ability? Keep in mind I don't accept abilities where there is always a better choice. It doesn't always need to be a good choice, but it should have a niche.

 

But already, once a no combo character has been build, that combo damage bonus evolution is worthless.

For that character, the other evolution is superior.

 

That entire build is already vastly inferior to somebody who is spamming combos.

 

I'm saying that it shouldn't be set up that way.

[Sylvius the Mad]

That would require a fair number of rules about it, and it doesn't guarantee they even catch everything. There's also more than just AR and TC, especially if they bring in abilities from ME3 MP like Geth Hunter Mode.

I can't speak to the MP at all. I know nothing about it.

That would require Warp be a lot better on its own so that it could actually fill a niche, but right now if we took ME3 and made it classless it would be rendered largely obsolete.

As you describe it, it's already an extreme niche ability. It seems like it's only useful when used a very specific way by characters with very specific builds.

Doesn't Warp have a useful crowd control aspect? It did in ME1, didn't it? I remember using it in bottlenecks where it would hold enemies in place and do damage over time.

Or am I thinking of a different ability?

Even as a primer for combos, Reave is arguably the best biotic in the game for that because it can hit multiple targets. As a debuff ability, Cryo Blast is better. As a raw damage ability, it's a joke. It can do okay against barriers but Overload and Concussive Shot are better options.

So what role does Warp fill in a system where I have access to every ability? Keep in mind I don't accept abilities where there is always a better choice. It doesn't always need to be a good choice, but it should have a niche.

In ME3 I used Incinerate against basically everything. I have no idea what these other abilities did.

I just don't like the idea that an ability that doesn't have an optimal use is a bad ability.

That entire build is already vastly inferior to somebody who is spamming combos.

I'm saying that it shouldn't be set up that way.

Would you prohibit such a build? I wouldn't. Suboptimal builds are a good thing, especially in an RPG.

[Cyonan]

As you describe it, it's already an extreme niche ability. It seems like it's only useful when used a very specific way by characters with very specific builds.

Doesn't Warp have a useful crowd control aspect? It did in ME1, didn't it? I remember using it in bottlenecks where it would hold enemies in place and do damage over time.

Or am I thinking of a different ability?

 

Warp never had a CC aspect. The three aspects of Warp are: Damage, weakening damage reduction, and biotic combos(in ME2/3 only).

 

It can be a niche ability but it's currently got a role in debuffing and biotic combosc as a sort of hybrid ability. It also can produce a stronger biotic explosion than Reave due to Reave lacking a 50% combo damage evolution, but it doesn't mesh as well with Cluster Grenade or Shockwave which can detonate multiple combos at once meaning they have much better synergy with Reave because it can prime multiple target at once unlike Warp which is single target only.

 

In ME3 I used Incinerate against basically everything. I have no idea what these other abilities did.

I just don't like the idea that an ability that doesn't have an optimal use is a bad ability.

 

Every ability will have an optimal way to use it.

 

What I want though is for every ability to have a place in a build that's actually good compared to the other builds. Sitting there spamming Incinerate on everything is sub optimal because it deals half damage to barriers and shields(and yes, that should have been documented in-game but it wasn't =P).

 

That's okay though because it still has an anti-armour niche. There's a good build that uses Incinerate, it just ideally switches to Overload for shields and barriers.

 

Would you prohibit such a build? I wouldn't. Suboptimal builds are a good thing, especially in an RPG.

 

I don't want to prohibit such a build nor do I want to remove the ability to have a sub optimal build. I just want every ability to have a place within a good build.

 

Not paying attention to ability synergy would still result in a sub optimal build. As would not using abilities to their most efficient use, like you did with Incinerate.