71 ответов в этой теме

[Qun00]

I decided it would be better to give this issue its own thread because every discussion about the Dark Ritual focuses mainly on other arguments, like whether it is risky, irresponsible or selfish to do it.

Instead, I'd like to speak strictly about Kieran. The question being raised is: Is it right to allow him to be altered this way?

That is, to agree to participate in a ritual where a baby is possessed by another being.

We've seen what happens when two souls share the same body: They merge until it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

As a side effect, there is a partial loss of the original identity. While the host doesn't completely forget about the person s/he once was, the foreign being is the dominant one.

This is what happened to Anders/Justice and Flemeth/Mythal. And mind you, at least they had the chance to decide whether they wanted to become a vessel.

[Super Drone]

*shrug* It worked out okay for Andraste... 

[Catilina]

Maybe morally wrong decision, but definitely an interesting experiment. And if we are to believe Morrigan, the child will not be evil (It proved to be true, but what would have happened later, we do not know). Morrigan is morally questionable, but she never lied (at least I don't remember such a case). However, not available similar experimental results, so she can only assume, what will happen with the child. 

 

In Thedas? I would not miss it!

 

If I were Anders? Of course, I would offer the merge to Justice. It's interesting. Risky, but maybe useful.

Same as Wynne.

 

(But I also like to play as blood mage.)

[DreamerM]

Can I take this opportunity to mention that "Morrigan Has An Old God Baby" is apparently another of the plot lines that don't go anywhere because Flemeth takes that Old God away and apparently that's it, no more Old God ever.

Thanks Bioware.

Sheesh, Morrigan got Nerfed in this game.

[DraftiestTrash]

Really hope Kieran isn't left traumatized from having another soul trapped within him, but hey I really wanted to import my living Warden to Awakening.

[JWvonGoethe]

Can I take this opportunity to mention that "Morrigan Has An Old God Baby" is apparently another of the plot lines that don't go anywhere because Flemeth takes that Old God away and apparently that's it, no more Old God ever.

Thanks Bioware.

Sheesh, Morrigan got Nerfed in this game.

Just because the old god soul went into Flemeth it doesn't mean the soul has disappeared forever. Maybe it will keep her alive after her post-credits "death" scene with Solas. Maybe Solas took it from her and will do something interesting with it. If the dark ritual wasn't performed then neither of these thing can happen, so the choice wasn't meaningless. It's way too early to say that this plotline has been written off, we'll have to wait until DA4 (or 5) to see where they go with it.

As for Morrigan getting nerfed, if she drank from the Well then she can now shape-shift into a dragon. And if she didn't drink from the Well then she has nothing to fear from her mother any more, since she's not bound to will of Mythal (and Flemeth might be dead either way). On top of that, her son Kieran is now completely safe. So Morrigan's still in a pretty strong position.

[fdrty]

The whole thing is so vague that there isn't really any way to know what is morally wrong or not.

 

It's clear that Kieran is not a normal child. He's not developmentally challenged, but there is something different about him. Although, maybe that's what happens when your mother is a hobo witch with the social skills of a hurlock.

 

It doesn't seem like Kieran has lost his sense of identity the same way Anders did. An Old God is very different to a spirit of justice, Old God Souls may not be like fade spirits at all, but completely different.

 

At the very least, the Old God soul gets taken away, and it seems to bring Kieran peace.

[Nocturnalchemy]

At the very least, the Old God soul gets taken away, and it seems to bring Kieran peace.

 

We don't yet have enough information to know what effects removing Urthemiel's soul will have on Kieran. On the one hand, he asks, "No more dreams?" in a way that implies he's happy about that. On the other, he tells Morrigan that he feels lonely without it. The long-term changes to Kieran after losing his second soul may be net positive, net negative, or net neutral. Only time will tell.

[Big I]

I decided it would be better to give this issue its own thread because every discussion about the Dark Ritual focuses mainly on other arguments, like whether it is risky, irresponsible or selfish to do it.

Instead, I'd like to speak strictly about Kieran. The question being raised is: Is it right to allow him to be altered this way?

That is, to agree to participate in a ritual where a baby is possessed by another being.

We've seen what happens when two souls share the same body: They merge until it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.

As a side effect, there is a partial loss of the original identity. While the host doesn't completely forget about the person s/he once was, the foreign being is the dominant one.

This is what happened to Anders/Justice and Flemeth/Mythal. And mind you, at least they had the chance to decide whether they wanted to become a vessel.

 

Kieran never had an original identity. He had Urthemiel's soul for his entire existence, barring the few hours or days between the DR at Redcliffe and the death of the Archdemon in Denerim. I'm more worried about the psycholgical and physical effects of Flemeth de-souling him, because he's never known anything else.

[Qun00]

Kieran never had an original identity. He had Urthemiel's soul for his entire existence, barring the few hours or days between the DR at Redcliffe and the death of the Archdemon in Denerim. I'm more worried about the psycholgical and physical effects of Flemeth de-souling him, because he's never known anything else.

And he only didn't have an original identity because the Warden and Morrigan made him that way. That's what the thread is about.

[KaiserShep]

In the Warden's position, I wouldn't hesitate to install Old God OS onto a fetus if it meant survival. I guess that might be considered wrong insofar that the actual fate of the fetus would not really be my primary concern, but…well…there it is. 

[German Soldier]

In the Warden's position, I wouldn't hesitate to install Old God OS onto a fetus if it meant survival. I guess that might be considered wrong insofar that the actual fate of the fetus would not really be my primary concern, but…well…there it is. 

I don't see the survival of the individual as worthy of the security of the planet you had no reassurances whatsoever that the thing wouldn't have attracted others legions of darkspawn to the surface.On the other hand you had those other two in DAO to use as meat-shield and if Bioware didn't write that stupid death  even Riordan.

[Gold Dragon]

And yet.....

 

THe survival of the planet may hinge indeed on Flemeth's posession of Urthemiel's soul.  We still don't know enough....

[Akiza]

Instead, I'd like to speak strictly about Kieran. The question being raised is: Is it right to allow him to be altered this way?
 

I think something went terribly wrong on his mental state especially after that the thing was removed it would be reasonable for us to predict that this will influence him negatively.Of course not that Flemeth will ever care she didn't care when she messed up the mental state of Morrigan she will not for Kieran what's important for her is to put her hands on the trophy.

[Akiza]

And yet.....

 

THe survival of the planet may hinge indeed on Flemeth's posession of Urthemiel's soul.  We still don't know enough....

Or Solas may have it now  that soul is perfect to substitute the Orb,  it is simply a big gamble not worthy one Grey warden especially Alistair/Loghain 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It is morally reprehensible and unethical to force and coerce a child, an unborn child at that, to do things like carry the soul of an ancient being. The child is nothing more than a tool and treating one's child as a tool is cruel.

[Big I]

And he only didn't have an original identity because the Warden and Morrigan made him that way. That's what the thread is about.

 

What exactly is the harm? In your original post you implied that the problem was that the soul subsumes the personality of the host. OGB Kieran has never known life without Urthemiel. Having two souls is his normal, it's what he grew up with. Honestly, he seems to be fine with it.

[German Soldier]

That is, to agree to participate in a ritual where a baby is possessed by another being.
 

But that is just half of the story the child was the subject of two different rituals of blood magic one to insert the soul and the other to remove it.He was just a tool for these two persons that's why from now on i sincerely hope Bioware will not force me to have to make deals with such immoral persons like Flemeth/Morrigan under the pretence that they are saving  the protagonist from the plot holes of the writers.

[Akiza]

*shrug* It worked out okay for Andraste... 

Andraste?

 

 under the pretence that they are saving  the protagonist from the plot holes of the writers.

Plot holes?

[Big I]

But that is just half of the story the child was the subject of two different rituals of blood magic one to insert the soul and the other to remove it.He was just a tool for these two persons that's why from now on i sincerely hope Bioware will not force me to have to make deals with such immoral persons like Flemeth/Morrigan under the pretence that they are saving  the protagonist from the plot holes of the writers.

 

Well, no one was forced to pick the Dark Ritual. If you really hated it, just harden Alistair, make him king, recruit Loghain and then let Loghain redeem himself against the Blight. It's also unclear what exactly was happening when Flemeth de-souled Kieran. Kieran at least seems to be giving his grandmother permission.

[German Soldier]

 

Plot holes?

Flemeth and Morrigan in DAO are saving the protagonist over events that were forced into the narrative

like the tower of Ishal being overrun by darkspawn from a low chamber that apparently nobody noticed despite it having a big door as we saw in the Dlc or Duncan/Riordan/Avernus not telling anything about the US to Alistair and the Warden and not wanting to create more GW and all of this to try to cornered the protagonist with the Dark ritual.

 

Well, no one was forced to pick the Dark Ritual. If you really hated it, just harden Alistair, make him king, recruit Loghain and then let Loghain redeem himself against the Blight. It's also unclear what exactly was happening when Flemeth de-souled Kieran. Kieran at least seems to be giving his grandmother permission.

The very fact that players have to resort to something that difficult (which require specific steps most users are able to figure out only from meta infos like the wikia or the forum)and rely on huge luck(that Loghain will not die before to reach the Archdemon)just show how the writers forced the narrative to make the ritual  more of a temptation than it would have been if only they would have reasonably allowed to create more GW with the resources Riordan had.

[Akiza]

they would have reasonably allowed to create more GW with the resources Riordan had.

Well i don't think it was really necessary to have more GW it would have been enough to not force Riorden to die in that stupid manner when an archdemon could have been hit by spells form distances and force it on the floor pretty much is what my Inquisitor do all the time with dragons.

[German Soldier]

Why  did he insanely jumped on it when we had an army of archers and mages just to look awesome in his own hollywood movie?

These kind of things are really bad i would have been totally fine if Riordan was allowed to kill the Archdemon but he had to make that stupid jump without inform anyone of his plans,it's a miracle he didn't missed the back of the Archdemon with his jump given the speed of the critter.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

it's a miracle he didn't missed the back of the Archdemon with his jump given the speed of the critter.

The  miracle is the Archdemon passing near the building in which Riordan was waiting which imply he knew beforehand where to wait because the writers said so.

 

We've seen what happens when two souls share the same body: They merge until it is hard to tell where one ends and the other begins.
 

It was never implied in DAO the two souls into one body rule, after all if that was the case i don't see why GW can't exist with an archdemon soul inside them.The ritual was meant to override the original soul but of course that would have made the ritual even more evil/dark than it already is so they found this bizarre compromise in DAI.

[Jigglypuff]

The dark ritual was only useful to keep the wardens alive, the OGB was no threat after all.