71 replies to this topic

[Gervaise]

I feel that presented as it was in DAO the decisions was one of those Grey Warden type decisions that could have short term gains for long term adverse implications.  

 

The Wardens often do morally questionable things in their ongoing duty to combat the Blight.   Taking Morrigan's deal doesn't just save the Warden's life but is an insurance against the possibility that all the wardens will be killed before getting in a fatal blow on the archdemon.    At the time there are only 3 (or possibly 4) wardens alive in all of Ferelden, so if they fall then Ferelden at least will be doomed.  However, with the OGB around, anyone can kill the archdemon and it still won't respawn in the nearest darkspawn.    So the odds of defeating it in the imminent battle are greatly improved.

 

As against that you have the fact that you are forcing the soul of an old god on a unborn foetus.   That would be questionable enough but then there are the future implications for the world when the child grows up.   Everything we know about the Old Gods suggests that we would not want one of them running around free in the world.   Morrigan only says she will raise it to respect where it came from; that could just as easily mean her and those like her, or dragons, or whatever, not the world generally and the people within it.   In DAO Morrigan is very much about survival of the fittest.    So there seemed a lot of potential there for creating a future threat, possibly even greater than that of the archdemon from which it came.

 

I found it interesting that in the only play through where I allowed Loghain to survive, he begs me not to make him do the ritual and is quite willing to take the dive on my behalf.   I felt in that run that at that point Loghain truly returns to being the hero he was once thought to be, with the protection of his country standing above his own survival.     By contrast Alistair is far too compliant, bearing in mind that when making the decision, none of the arguments given above are used in justification; it is simply seen as a way of avoiding death.

 

Then the whole jeopardy of taking the deal with Morrigan is really done away with in DAI.   Because it was an optional outcome, this was understandable but it did make the questionable aspects of it almost non existent.    Kieran as OGB is a little "odd" compared with ordinary Keiran but that is the only thing about him that is different.   Apparently he gets weird dreams as well.   Apart from that he seems a very inoffensive child.    Clearly Morrigan had far better mothering skills than one might have imagined from DAO but as she says, she didn't want to be the sort of mother that Flemeth was.    Then Flemeth removes the OGB soul from Kieran and life goes on as before.   He doesn't appear damaged by the removal of an integral part of his being and will now be free of those troubling dreams.   Happy endings all round.

   

As for the fate of the OGB soul, well again, since this was an optional outcome, it will play only a minor role in any future resolution.    It would seem that all those misgivings and soul searching you might have had in DAO were baseless.   It was simply a plot device to allow you and your friends to survive the confrontation with the archdemon and yet still defeat it.    

 

So if you are talking about the decision when making it in DAO, then it is very morally questionable but, depending on your point of view, it is justifiable for non selfish reasons.   By DAI it hardly seems that way at all.

[phoray]

My impression, was that the whole 20 cells that made up the baby at that point (sex happened the night before battle) didn't have a soul to be over ridden. 

 

So after Morrigan, who was like my best friend in the game, assured me she wasn't going to like... experiment or hurt the fully formed child when it was born, I was good. I'm pretty sure I asked literally all the questions before I agreed to talk Alistair into doing the deed because my first warden was a female City Elf. I think the only thing she kept mum about was where she would go after the battle; which, really isn't my business anyway.

 

In the case that one had been romancing Morrigan for a while with lots of sexy times, it's possible there could have been a 4-12 week pregnancy with. hypothetically, a soul. 

 

I say hypothetically because I'm personally atheist, but in a world of literal spirits, demons, and andraste's ashes, I'll concede that in the World of Thedas there are very likely souls. Even in that world, eggs that have been fertilized by mere hours don't have souls (in my mind.)

 

So, in my world states of an unromanced Morrigan, I feel the DR is A-OK. 

 

Have never romanced Morrigan, but I guess if I had, thinking on it... I'd probably refuse. And because I'm incapable of killing Alistair, that would also be a world state where I made him a grumpy King and USed Loghain. What can I say, I don't have it in me to soul kerplode with an Archdemon.

[Big I]

As against that you have the fact that you are forcing the soul of an old god on a unborn foetus.   That would be questionable enough but then there are the future implications for the world when the child grows up.   Everything we know about the Old Gods suggests that we would not want one of them running around free in the world.

 

Is that really the case? I'd understand being hesitant about letting, say, the Dragon of Slaves wander around, but Urthemiel the Dragon of Beauty? His festival is still celebrated in DA (I think it's Satinalia). But honestly we don't know enough about how they were worshipped in Tevinter to say anything for sure. Did they give blood magic to the magisters? Did they expect and reward human sacrifice, or was that practice an invention of the magisters? What the heck were they thinking when they told the Architect etc to enter the Golden City, and why did they go silent afterwards? For all we know Urthemiel might be a really cool guy who wants to help people.

 

I'm also unconvinced of the potential to hurt Kieran. Morrigan makes it pretty clear that being the OGB isn't going to be a bad thing for him, and that's backed up in DA:I.

[Secret Rare]

Can I take this opportunity to mention that "Morrigan Has An Old God Baby" is apparently another of the plot lines that don't go anywhere because Flemeth takes that Old God away and apparently that's it, no more Old God ever.

Thanks Bioware.

 

What you expected?

How they could had possibly reconciled two different states in which one of them is very definitive (i.e OGB doesn't exist Urthemiel destroyed)?

It's seems to me that they didn't touched the world-states which are without an OGB because it was impossible to whitewash even for the writers.

[Secret Rare]

My impression, was that the whole 20 cells that made up the baby at that point (sex happened the night before battle) didn't have a soul to be over ridden. 

 

The Archdemon isn't killed the day after the ritual but some weeks later.

 

Anyway Morrigan's reassurances or not i see her only as an enemy and a dangerous apostate which is pretty much the same view the majority of persons have about her and Flemeth in the setting, two misanthropes that are unworthy of any trust.

I would have never allowed her to save an archdemon soul after all the blood i spilled to reach it.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I feel that presented as it was in DAO the decisions was one of those Grey Warden type decisions that could have short term gains for long term adverse implications.  

 

The Wardens often do morally questionable things in their ongoing duty to combat the Blight.   Taking Morrigan's deal doesn't just save the Warden's life but is an insurance against the possibility that all the wardens will be killed before getting in a fatal blow on the archdemon.    At the time there are only 3 (or possibly 4) wardens alive in all of Ferelden, so if they fall then Ferelden at least will be doomed.  However, with the OGB around, anyone can kill the archdemon and it still won't respawn in the nearest darkspawn.    So the odds of defeating it in the imminent battle are greatly improved.

 

 

That's false Gaider said that a GW need to kill an Archdemon ritual or not ritual this was his original idea and this is way he never included this dialogue option about the dark ritual.

[Secret Rare]

That's false Gaider said that a GW need to kill an Archdemon ritual or not ritual this was his original idea and this is way he never included this dialogue option about the dark ritual.

GW do questionable things to eliminate the Archdemons but i never heard about GW that do questionable things to save their souls that is utterly contrary to their mandate,that's why the DR is a selfish act for a GW no matter the PoV.

[Catilina]

(I'm wondering how many people are really unselfish...)

[Gaia300]

  Then Flemeth removes the OGB soul from Kieran and life goes on as before.   He doesn't appear damaged by the removal of an integral part of his being

 

I remember that this child had some troubles after the removal and then his role in the story was over we didn't had the chance to see if he is fine in the years to come,in DAI DR-state  he was very distressed.

[Gaia300]

Is that really the case? I'd understand being hesitant about letting, say, the Dragon of Slaves wander around, but Urthemiel the Dragon of Beauty?

Urthemiel was called the dragon of beauty  for the conviction the magisters had about him being more good looking than the others old gods that's all.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

GW do questionable things to eliminate the Archdemons

The point is this i know how to kill an Archdemon you know how to kill an old god?No?

That's why i reject the ritual(beside my natural dislike for the witches in general)

[Fuyin]

Why would anyone want to risk another Blight? I'm sorry Morrigan. I like you but I won't risk an entire country just for one GW.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, it's wrong to force another's consciousness onto someone else.

Uldred was doing the same thing, essentially.

[Gervaise]

We may not know exactly what the Old Gods were like but at the time of DAO all we had to go on was Chantry teaching.   This accused all old gods of teaching blood magic to the Magisters, not simply Dumat, and claimed that the Old Gods were responsible for encouraging the assault on the Golden city that led to the Blights.   Now you might question Chantry assertions about their culpability but really at that time Old Gods did not have a good press.    So on the whole, you'd think a human noble would be a bit doubtful about letting one lose on the world (since that is their religion).  My human noble spared Loghain because he was shooting for the throne, so Loghain willingly offered to die when consulted on the matter and Morrigan left in a huff.     Whilst my Dalish wouldn't necessarily believe a word of what the Chantry says, Old Gods equals ancient Tevinter who enslaved their people, so he wasn't about to save the old enemy.   That just left my city elf Warden, who agreed because what did she care if the old god created problems for the nobility further down the line and my mage elf who was sweet on Alistair and didn't want either of them to die.   Didn't do a dwarf run but I'm thinking they would probably turn Morrigan down too.

 

I think the idea that a Grey Warden still had to kill the archdemon for it to work was daft.   Either it is going to jump to the OGB regardless of all the other options in its way or it is not.   Why would it pass through the Warden without killing them in order to jump to Morrigan's womb, which could still be back at the city gate?    Still if DG said that was the case, then really there is no justification for doing the DR, except purely selfish, short term motives.   Hell, as a Warden you are going to die anyway.   Might as well take the archdemon down with you than wait to die alone in the Deep Roads.    I remember the first time I was offered the choice, I guessed that I would likely die if I refused (because I had a feeling Riorden wouldn't make it to the end) but Morrigan was so insistent that I should do it, that only made me more determined that I wouldn't.    If she wanted something that bad, I felt it couldn't be a good idea to comply.

 

As for Kieran being troubled by its removal, all I remember is him saying "no more dreams?" to Flemeth and being assured that was the case.   He didn't seem distressed at all.    Does he say anything after he returns to the garden, because I never clicked on him again?

[DreamerM]

Just because the old god soul went into Flemeth it doesn't mean the soul has disappeared forever. Maybe it will keep her alive after her post-credits "death" scene with Solas. Maybe Solas took it from her and will do something interesting with it. If the dark ritual wasn't performed then neither of these thing can happen, so the choice wasn't meaningless. It's way too early to say that this plotline has been written off, we'll have to wait until DA4 (or 5) to see where they go with it.

As for Morrigan getting nerfed, if she drank from the Well then she can now shape-shift into a dragon. And if she didn't drink from the Well then she has nothing to fear from her mother any more, since she's not bound to will of Mythal (and Flemeth might be dead either way). On top of that, her son Kieran is now completely safe. So Morrigan's still in a pretty strong position.

It doesn't really matter. We don't know what Morrigan was planning to do with the soul, we don't know what Flemmeth took it for, we don't know what Flemmeth did with it, we don't know what Morrigan being bound to Flemmeth now is going to mean in the long run, we don't know if Solas took the soul or not, we don't know what Solas did to Flemmeth or why.....

When it comes to Morrigan and Flemmeth, so much of their plan is kept hidden from me that I've just stopped caring. Give me SOMETHING to hang on to that's not a mysterious action or some cryptic words and lets see if I can get invested again. In the meantime, I really hope Solas makes for a less opaque and more threatening antagonist.

[German Soldier]

Yes, it's wrong to force another's consciousness onto someone else.

Uldred was doing the same thing, essentially.

That's no different than what Dorian's father was trying to do with him.

I think is immoral to alter permanently a consciousness ,if this dinosaur wanted to survive it had to find a body of it's own or an object like a soul gem ( Skyrim and Oblivion) a child?Hell no.

 

It doesn't really matter. We don't know what Morrigan was planning to do with the soul

 

She was planning nothing it's only due to her own obsession that she wanted it exactly like the well of sorrow or any other ancient artifact

of whom she know nothing about.Morrigan's character is rather simple to predict you put the bait (artifact with power)and she takes the bait like a fool,that's how Flemeth tricked her.

[kimgoold]

You are talking about adult individuals with developed personalities and life experiences ( Wynne and Anders) a foetus wouldn't know any other way of being, so how exactly is a foetus adversely effected ? They are born with this other presence and this has been the norm since almost the moment of conception so no I don't see how Kieran is adversely affected. If anything this entity gives him unique abilities, insights and experiences and forgotten knowledge a new born shouldn't even have.

[Lunatica]

When it comes to Morrigan and Flemmeth, so much of their plan is kept hidden from me that I've just stopped caring. Give me SOMETHING to hang on to that's not a mysterious action or some cryptic words and lets see if I can get invested again. In the meantime, I really hope Solas makes for a less opaque and more threatening antagonist.

Morrigan::The wildly out-of-character performance of Morrigan in Orlais was like nails on a chalkboard.

 

Flemeth::In DA2 and DA:I she shows up briefly out of nowhere, is mysterious, and then leaves without really adding anything to the story.

[Aren]

You are talking about adult individuals with developed personalities and life experiences ( Wynne and Anders) a foetus wouldn't know any other way of being, so how exactly is a foetus adversely effected ? They are born with this other presence and this has been the norm since almost the moment of conception so no I don't see how Kieran is adversely affected. If anything this entity gives him unique abilities, insights and experiences and forgotten knowledge a new born shouldn't even have.

Brainwashing someone from conception to force it to be what you want that's what the Dark ritual is, anti-freedom whether it is applied to an adult or to an infant.Who cares for the knowledge if the price to pay is the freedom of own personality acquired or potentially to be acquired.

[Qun00]

My impression, was that the whole 20 cells that made up the baby at that point (sex happened the night before battle) didn't have a soul to be over ridden.

So after Morrigan, who was like my best friend in the game, assured me she wasn't going to like... experiment or hurt the fully formed child when it was born, I was good. I'm pretty sure I asked literally all the questions before I agreed to talk Alistair into doing the deed because my first warden was a female City Elf. I think the only thing she kept mum about was where she would go after the battle; which, really isn't my business anyway.

In the case that one had been romancing Morrigan for a while with lots of sexy times, it's possible there could have been a 4-12 week pregnancy with. hypothetically, a soul.

I say hypothetically because I'm personally atheist, but in a world of literal spirits, demons, and andraste's ashes, I'll concede that in the World of Thedas there are very likely souls. Even in that world, eggs that have been fertilized by mere hours don't have souls (in my mind.)

So, in my world states of an unromanced Morrigan, I feel the DR is A-OK.

Have never romanced Morrigan, but I guess if I had, thinking on it... I'd probably refuse. And because I'm incapable of killing Alistair, that would also be a world state where I made him a grumpy King and USed Loghain. What can I say, I don't have it in me to soul kerplode with an Archdemon.

Morrigan's answer to "Will the child be hurt?" is just as unsatisfying as her answer to everything else.

"No, it will be changed". Well... Connor technically wasn't hurt by the Desire Demon's possession either. Just "changed".

[Mlady]

The kid didn't seem to mind it when the voices stopped. He said he felt alone but he seemed fine. I think Flemeth was trying to make him a normal boy besides wanting his power. I wonder if she was also trying to help him avoid being taken by Solas? She obviously knows what the Wolf is planning.

 

As for Morrigan and the DR I was always a friend to her and felt she actually didn't want me to die. Even though her main purpose was to perform it, I think a part of her wanted my Amell safe too. I am also positive the gift she gives you in Witch Hunt is the Calling cure.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Solas didn't showed any interest even if he knew about it(because he watched from the fade all the blight and he saw that a GW did not died)he did not cared at all he could have easly put the child into stone and absorb his soul.

 

As for Morrigan she always had been utterly annoying  even pestering me at Redcliffe without permission whatsoever to enter the castle i do think the world is a better place without them.

 

Most importantly i don't need and i don't want to be saved by anyone not by Flemeth,not By Morrigan not by Solas not by anyone so they have to leave me in peace instead to bother me with their poor deluded plans to change the world.

[Domakir]

they have to leave me in peace instead to bother me with their poor deluded plans to change the world.

The common situation of 'I don't like this thing so I'll do this that favors no one but me because I say so. F* everyone'

[Akiza]

 

 

Most importantly i don't need and i don't want to be saved by anyone not by Flemeth,not By Morrigan not by Solas not by anyone so they have to leave me in peace instead to bother me with their poor deluded plans to change the world.

I hope Bioware will not create a plot with the same premises in DA4 "someone  save the protagonist  because they need to use them as tools blah blah ecc..".

Sorry but i dont want any form of help from deceivers especially if it is done to fill plot holes into the story (Tower of Ishal&US).

[Secret Rare]

The common situation of 'I don't like this thing so I'll do this that favors no one but me because I say so. F* everyone'

There are  many npc with this mindset(all mages) that are not content with how the world is so they feel the need to radically  change everything with their bizzare plans because the world didn't meet their expectations.You can't imagine how much pathetic i think these people are why they don't just go into the fade if they don't like the mortal world and think everyone in it  is a fool?This of course is  an advice for Solas and Morrigan.