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Kieran and the Dark Ritual.


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173 réponses à ce sujet

#101
Aren

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You are oversimplifying things, high-risk mission and certain death isn't the same thing.By your logic every combatant wants to or is ready to face certain death because they took part in war.

 

Second, this isn't necessarily about fear of dying (it may be if you want) but also preventing unnecessary death (remember that you aren't saving just your life but life of another warden).

The final battle is an high risk mission not certain death you can die only if you choose the option of the US,or  you was talking about  the survival of Alistair/Loghain?If that was the case why i should care?Bye,bye to them both and Morrigan and Flemeth fail what's the problem?
Actually if Alistair dies is even better for me.


#102
KaiserShep

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The final battle is an high risk mission not certain death you can die only if you choose the option of the US,or  you was talking about  the survival of Alistair/Loghain?If that was the case why i should care?bye,bye to them both and Morrigan and Flemeth fail what's the problem?

 

 

 

Loghain always dies so he doesn't matter to me, but if Alistair is a dear friend (or more) of the Warden, then I can see some motivation there to do just about anything to ensure that the battle can possibly end with the both of them surviving. 



#103
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Loghain always dies so he doesn't matter to me, but if Alistair is a dear friend (or more) of the Warden, then I can see some motivation there to do just about anything to ensure that the battle can possibly end with the both of them surviving. 

He was only an obstacle for me so his death was beneficial,not to mention that even if he was a friend i would have still sacrificed him to kill an old god rather than give it to a witch of the wilds which had no qualms at wanting people dead for petty reasons.



#104
German Soldier

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Of course, our Warden has to also believe that Morrigan and Flemeth are malevolent beings that want to end or rule the world somehow. My Warden is not convinced that this is the case at all. It wouldn't be beyond comprehension that their goals, even if self-serving, can possibly end up being benign. It's not as if they benefit from the darkspawn.

Is not as if i have any reason to trust two psychopaths like Morrigan and Flemeth not to mention Urthemiel himself god among slaves, they are all totally trustworthy and benign.Morrigan herself in DAO is very malign.



#105
TheKomandorShepard

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I'm not really interested in starting a never ending cycle debate where you reply with the notion to be 100% right.

Anyway the souls of these cirtter are incredibly dangerous eliminate any shred of them at the cost of one single Grey warden plus not giving it to the wtiches of the wilds or The Dread wolf is more than acceptable and is not an unnecessary death because with that sacrifice Morrigan/Flemeth remain at empty hands forever.

Nice excuse to avoid preventing an argument.

Souls are not dangerous , what is dangerous is an old god + taint not it's soul as i said before no evidence of it being a threat of future blight, Dai provides contrary evidence.At worst you may not trust Morrigan with it, so it all comes to wheter you trust Morrigan with it or not.So yes it can easily be seen as unnecessary sacrifice.

 

 

 

The final battle is an high risk mission not certain death you can die only if you choose the option of the US,or  you was talking about  the survival of Alistair/Loghain?If that was the case why i should care?Bye,bye to them both and Morrigan and Flemeth fail what's the problem?
Actually if Alistair dies is even better for me.

 

The final battle is certain death for either you or for another warden if you won't do DR.You missed my point completely we were clearly discussing fact that the warden decided to go on high-risk mission vs facing certain death.Plus, where i have said you personally have to acre about survival of Alistair/Loghain, but many other may care not only their life but also for an example Riordan. 

 

 

Is not as if i have any reason to trust two psychopaths like Morrigan and Flemeth not to mention Urthemiel himself god among slaves, they are all totally trustworthy and benign.

Morrigan is hardly a psychopath, she is ruthless and ****** what is mostly influence of flemeth but she has redeeming qualities and as we see in WH and especially Dai she got better.



#106
Qun00

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"It all comes down to whether you trust Morrigan or not" is such a terrible argument.

Would you jump from a bridge if your bestest friend in the whole wide world told you to do it?

#107
TheKomandorShepard

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"It all comes down to whether you trust Morrigan or not" is such a terrible argument.

Would you jump from a bridge if your bestest friend in the whole wide world told you to do it?

Weak analogy.

 

You are talking here about committing suicide because friend told you to do so vs ambiguous choice that may have negative ,positive or neutral impact.



#108
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Nice excuse to avoid preventing an argument.

Souls are not dangerous , what is dangerous is an old god + taint not it's soul as i said before no evidence of it being a threat of future blight, Dai provides contrary evidence.At worst you may not trust Morrigan with it, so it all comes to wheter you trust Morrigan with it or not.So yes it can easily be seen as unnecessary sacrifice.

 

Souls are not dangerous?Where is your evidence for that other than your own self gullible rationale?

 

The archdemon soul is the catalyst of the blight since it has the power to allow the critter to resurrect in fact the body of an archdemon is nothing more but an empty shell the soul has it's power.

In DAI that soul used it's powers to enter the fade at will and physically this is hardly something that is not dangerous plus i don't trust Morrigan which is a psychopath yes psychopath because she approved  decisions for psychopaths in DAO,so end of the debate the sacrifice is necessary to make her and Flemeth fail,not to mention that it may even impact Solas.


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#109
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The final battle is certain death for either you or for another warden if you won't do DR.You missed my point completely we were clearly discussing fact that the warden decided to go on high-risk mission vs facing certain death.Plus, where i have said you personally have to acre about survival of Alistair/Loghain, but many other may care not only their life but also for an example Riordan. 

 

 

 you're unable to accept that some people want to kill any shred of Urthemiel and also that they have the power to do so regardless of what you think is right,i have the power to make Morrigan fail accept it and move on.



#110
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Weak analogy.

You are talking here about committing suicide because friend told you to do so vs ambiguous choice that may have negative ,positive or neutral impact.



Only a fool makes decisions based on how much you trust someone. Concrete information always comes first.

And as you just said yourself, it is ambiguous. That's not good enough.
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#111
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Only a fool makes decisions based on how much you trust someone. Concrete information always comes first.

 

These two women never bothered to answer anything so i'm not even sure how they can pretend to be trusted over the nothingness of their silence.



#112
Tidus

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Donquijote,and 59 others, I heard big talk before--before the mortar rounds and small fire lite up the night during a mad minute. That false bravado disappeared and the would be brave wet or soiled their breeches (some times both) and some after a short time lost their minds or had nervous breakdowns..

 

Then the true meaning of dying for nothing means shite comes to light when they start filling body bags..Its always better to live for nothing then dying for nothing.

 

So,yeah,Morrigan's DR is a nice escape from a world of shite that's coming down in the form of the AD..



#113
Catilina

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[...]

Souls are not dangerous , what is dangerous is an old god + taint not it's soul as i said before no evidence of it being a threat of future blight, Dai provides contrary evidence.At worst you may not trust Morrigan with it, so it all comes to wheter you trust Morrigan with it or not.So yes it can easily be seen as unnecessary sacrifice.

[...]

I'm surprised. You think, the old god baby don't be dangerous, but the mages inherently dangerous?



#114
KaiserShep

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He was only an obstacle for me so his death was beneficial,not to mention that even if he was a friend i would have still sacrificed him to kill an old god rather than give it to a witch of the wilds which had no qualms at wanting people dead for petty reasons.

 

 

The point is simply that if one were in the Warden's position, and actually cared about Alistair, it would be understandable to take the risk if it meant both s/he and his/her friend have a chance to both make it out alive. 

 

Is not as if i have any reason to trust two psychopaths like Morrigan and Flemeth not to mention Urthemiel himself god among slaves, they are all totally trustworthy and benign.Morrigan herself in DAO is very malign.

 

 

I never said anything about the Warden absolutely trusting Morrigan or Flemeth. The point here is that my character can take it on faith. From the perspective of this character, the Dark Ritual is an opportunity to both see the world rebuild after the Blight, as well as having a chance to keep her friend around a bit longer. I don't see why this would be unreasonable. If others consider the more final route to be the best one, then good on them, but it's not the only viable option. 

 

"It all comes down to whether you trust Morrigan or not" is such a terrible argument.

Would you jump from a bridge if your bestest friend in the whole wide world told you to do it?

 

 

 

Trouble with that comparison is that it lacks context. What incentive would one have to jump off a bridge in the first place? It's not as if Morrigan is offering the Dark Ritual because it's fun. The motivating factor for the Warden is entirely the idea that doing it may potentially save whichever Warden performs the killer blow while still ending the Blight. Even if the character doesn't trust Morrigan entirely (or at all), that's a mighty big opportunity in the face of 100% certainty of death, for either the Warden or an ally s/he may consider to be important. 

 

The accuracy of the analogy is irrelevant.

Only a fool makes decisions based on how much you trust someone. Concrete information always comes first.

 

 

Actually, the accuracy of an analogy is kind of important, provided the point was to get some sort of point across. In any case, this "concrete evidence" stuff is clearly a red herring. Like, where would you go to reference this? How would you explore this matter in-depth to find texts that explain anything like what Morrigan is on about? Who else could you go ask? And, more importantly, where would the Warden find the time to do any of this? And that's really the thing: time is of the essence. To go back to the tricky analogy, the Warden and whichever ally accompanies him/her may already be going over a bridge, and may be going over it very soon, since one has to trust Riordan when he says that it must be a Warden to strike the killing blow, and that Warden will most certainly die. If someone is claiming that there's a way to put a safety net between them and the bottom, I don't see why it's not worth consideration. 



#115
Qun00

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The fact that you can't explore this matter in depth and there isn't anyone you can go ask about this is just another reason not to do the DR.

You're making a blind decision. The choice to jump at any opportunity to save your skin is understandable, but let's not pretend it is a well informed one.

#116
KaiserShep

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I've never claimed that it was well-informed. I've only ever claimed that it was more of an opportunity than its alternative, which is simply death, either for our character or a companion.



#117
TheKomandorShepard

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Souls are not dangerous?Where is your evidence for that other than your own self gullible rationale?

 

The archdemon soul is the catalyst of the blight since it has the power to allow the critter to resurrect in fact the body of an archdemon is nothing more but an empty shell the soul has it's power.

In DAI that soul used it's powers to enter the fade at will and physically this is hardly something that is not dangerous plus i don't trust Morrigan which is a psychopath yes psychopath because she approved  decisions for psychopaths in DAO,so end of the debate the sacrifice is necessary to make her and Flemeth fail,not to mention that it may even impact Solas.

 

Remember the times when someone was killed by the soul? Well i don't.

 

Archdemon is a creature of body and flesh that become tainted, there is no shred that mearly soul can be tained, not to mention it doesn't emit the call.I also it didn't say it can't be dangerous just it isn't dangerous blight wise or at least nothing supports that it is.

 

No Morrigan isn't a psychopath, it seems you use negative connotation of the world nothing else.Just because someone takes same decisions as psychopath doesn't equatate to being one, unless you want to argue that Sten is a psychopath as well because he favors ruthless decisions that push you forward toward your goal.Plus, that wasn't even what i was debating it seems you push your own motives on me or others, not everyone's goal is to make Morrigan or Flemeth fail.

 

 

Only a fool makes decisions based on how much you trust someone. Concrete information always comes first.

And as you just said yourself, it is ambiguous. That's not good enough.

Never were in leader position i guess? Sometimes you need make decisions with ambiguous outcomes.In fact both killing archdemon and preserving old god soul are ambiguous in long-term as you don't know ramifications of both.

 

 

I'm surprised. You think, the old god baby don't be dangerous, but the mages inherently dangerous?

Of course i think old god baby is dangerous but im not arguing my personal opinion only theoretics.

 



#118
Qun00

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I've never claimed that it was well-informed. I've only ever claimed that it was more of an opportunity than its alternative, which is simply death, either for our character or a companion.


By using an unborn baby to accomplish that. If the Warden knows little about the DR, he knows even less about how that sort of possession is gonna affect this child.

"Will the child be hurt? / No, it will be changed" isn't that reassuring.

It's funny that Morrigan succeeds in making the player look at the baby as a tool. Nobody ever remembers him in these debates and his well being isn't a factor during the decision making at all.

Ahhh, it feels wonderful to be on-topic again.

#119
TheKomandorShepard

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By using an unborn baby to accomplish that. If the Warden knows little about the DR, he knows even less about how that sort of possession is gonna affect this child.

"Will the child be hurt? / No, it will be changed" isn't that reassuring.

It's funny that Morrigan succeeds in making the player look at the baby as a tool. Nobody ever remembers him in these debates and his well being isn't a factor during the decision making at all.

Ahhh, it feels wonderful to be on-topic again.

Well, she did answer your question and changed doesn't mean necessarily bad thing.Child turns out to be fine in Dai.

 

Also not necessarily as a tool, unless player doesn't care about baby fate, then there is matter unless you romanced Morrigan there is no baby in first place, and even if you romanced her topic of the baby nevers comes up at least unstil epilogue.



#120
Catilina

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[...]

 

Of course i think old god baby is dangerous but im not arguing my personal opinion only theoretics.

 

I'm not arguing, just surprised. I mostly performed the dark ritual, and trusted in Morrigan's promise (she are morally questionable, but never lied), but you know, I'm not worried about the world, than you, I'm for mage freedom (you know, the dangerous abominations will destroy the world), then why I worried about an unknow tiny old god ? ;)



#121
German Soldier

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I'm surprised. You think, the old god baby don't be dangerous, but the mages inherently dangerous?

The incoherence of some people is just astonishing.Mages are bad and dangerous but their elitè like the old gods reincarnated are not.

 

 

 

No Morrigan isn't a psychopath, it seems you use negative connotation of the world nothing else.Just because someone takes same decisions as psychopath doesn't equatate to being one, unless you want to argue that Sten is a psychopath as well because he favors ruthless decisions that push you forward toward your goal.

Morrigan in DAO is a psychopath in which she approve of useless deaths like the one of the merchant in Lothering,Sten also is a psychopath at killing people for a sword?No  chance to gain any OGB she must fail.



#122
Donquijote and 59 others

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snip

Spare me the philosophy old man,deaths of people like Socrates are still firmly remembered in history and he died out of a suicide for his own conviction

"die for something means everything live for nothing means shite". guess that his philosophy has nothing to envy to your street thinking.



#123
Catilina

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The incoherence of some people is just astonishing.Mages are bad and dangerous but their elitè like the old gods reincarnated are not.

Interesting view point. I'm not surprised.



#124
SgtSteel91

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By using an unborn baby to accomplish that. If the Warden knows little about the DR, he knows even less about how that sort of possession is gonna affect this child.

"Will the child be hurt? / No, it will be changed" isn't that reassuring.

It's funny that Morrigan succeeds in making the player look at the baby as a tool. Nobody ever remembers him in these debates and his well being isn't a factor during the decision making at all.

Ahhh, it feels wonderful to be on-topic again.

I sort of view the post Origins quest to find Morrigan as part "I want to be with you despite our fates" and part "I want to take responsibility for my part in the DR" by, like, being a part of Kieran's life and raising him "right" like any other child and not, possibly, as a tool or whatever you may fear Morrigan will do with him.

#125
Secret Rare

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Morrigan and her deranged fixation at wanting to use others as tools(sons,friends,lovers,enemies)brought me to only one route,revenge.


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