69 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[Toasted Llama]

Mages are, in theory, simply super special snowflake elves, humans and qunari. They get magic abilities "just because". If my memory serves me well it's not even caused by genetics. They can shoot fireballs from their palms and lightning from their fingertips. They can raise the dead as their own personal army or prevent a living person from joining the dead. Basically they control the living and the dead with a hand gesture. Some have (ab)used this to raise themselves to a divine status. All of that just because.

Honestly that's all fine and dandy! Really, I genuinely don't mind some people being super strong because of their birth, since the original idea - to counter all of this awesome - seemed to be that mages are extremely susceptible to hostile takeover from a demon and turning into an abomination. There is this nice balance of danger to all that power. There's a risk involved and people were rightfully frightened of mages. It was an interesting conflict. Awesome power that can be used for good, but terrible results if handled improperly.

But by DA:I there's almost none of that stuff left. There's no (I couldn't remember any so I checked the wiki. Turns out, yes. They literally don't appear in DA:I at all.) evidence on screen in DA:I that mages turn into abominations. Even while there was a bloody hole in the Veil and angry demons pouring out of it. Seriously?!

So who needs the Templars and the Circle anyway? Nobody is turning into abominations. Apparently most mages can just teach themselves and keep themselves free from enslavement. Look at Morrigan, she turned out just fine, right? Look at Hawke, also completely fine! And as a cherry on top; Templars are evil boogiemen who physically and sexually abuse mages.

Brilliant. Now everyone will automatically symphathize with these poor victims of oppression, who can shoot lightning from their fingertips and give them all the freedom they want.

Wait, what?

Is nobody seriously concerned with the fact that there's literally no more downsides to being a mage? You don't turn into an abomination, everyone who dislikes or distrusts you is a filthy bigot and oppressor and you are a strong independant mage who need no Circle to teach him/her how to learn magic.

Where's the balance? The consequences? The negatives? Do mages just get all those powers at no cost whatsoever? The ability to kill people with their brain just for the lulz? I think most people will agree that perfect characters are boring and characters with flaws and virtues are the most relatable, so why do mages get a pass to become essentially the perfect victims?

I have no problems whatsoever with display of discrimination nor the victimization itself. But balance the unlimited power of mages with some negative consequences or a 'price'. And show it in the actual games. Don't just imply it happens. And give the Templars some slack and show some redeeming qualities. The mage-templar discussion as gotten so incredibly one sided that - during the decision of whose help you get in DA:I - I tried to flip and toss every stone to find a proper excuse to help the Templars and not the poor oppressed mages (AGAIN).

[Qis]

It just proved that Templar and Chantry are wrong all these time, Mages are not becoming abominations just like that, they only forced to become one, and this is proven in previous game. No Mages become abomination as simply as wake up in the morning and then "bwahahaha" killing everyone. Even the powerful one, the Dreamer, like Fenriyel didn't become abomination so easy.

 

It just Chantry propaganda who want to create fear and control. Yes, Mages are victims, yes Templars and Chantry are wrong.

[Toasted Llama]

It just proved that Templar and Chantry are wrong all these time, Mages are not becoming abominations just like that, they only forced to become one, and this is proven in previous game. No Mages become abomination as simply as wake up in the morning and then "bwahahaha" killing everyone. Even the powerful one, the Dreamer, like Fenriyel didn't become abomination so easy.

 

It just Chantry propaganda who want to create fear and control. Yes, Mages are victims, yes Templars and Chantry are wrong.

 

Which turned it from a possibly interesting conflict into a dull and boring black and white issue.

[nightscrawl]

If my memory serves me well it's not even caused by genetics.

I don't believe we know either way. Since magic does run in families and the Tevinter altus class breeds for magic, and are pretty successful at it, genetics is involved in some capacity.

There are all sort of theories as to how humans and qunari got their magic, but they are all exactly that: theories. We know that humans came to Thedas from elsewhere and that elves are the true natives. But we don't know if humans had magic before then, or not. We don't know if human magic is a result of mixing with elves. We don't know if qunari magic is a result from experimentation by Tevinters.

 

But by DA:I there's almost none of that stuff left. There's no (I couldn't remember any so I checked the wiki. Turns out, yes. They literally don't appear in DA:I at all.) evidence on screen in DA:I that mages turn into abominations. Even while there was a bloody hole in the Veil and angry demons pouring out of it. Seriously?!

So who needs the Templars and the Circle anyway? Nobody is turning into abominations. Apparently most mages can just teach themselves and keep themselves free from enslavement. Look at Morrigan, she turned out just fine, right? Look at Hawke, also completely fine! And as a cherry on top; Templars are evil boogiemen who physically and sexually abuse mages.

Brilliant. Now everyone will automatically symphathize with these poor victims of oppression, who can shoot lightning from their fingertips and give them all the freedom they want.

Wait, what?

Is nobody seriously concerned with the fact that there's literally no more downsides to being a mage? You don't turn into an abomination, everyone who dislikes or distrusts you is a filthy bigot and oppressor and you are a strong independant mage who need no Circle to teach him/her how to learn magic.

Where's the balance? The consequences? The negatives? Do mages just get all those powers at no cost whatsoever? The ability to kill people with their brain just for the lulz? I think most people will agree that perfect characters are boring and characters with flaws and virtues are the most relatable, so why do mages get a pass to become essentially the perfect victims?

I have no problems whatsoever with display of discrimination nor the victimization itself. But balance the unlimited power of mages with some negative consequences or a 'price'. And show it in the actual games. Don't just imply it happens. And give the Templars some slack and show some redeeming qualities. The mage-templar discussion as gotten so incredibly one sided that - during the decision of whose help you get in DA:I - I tried to flip and toss every stone to find a proper excuse to help the Templars and not the poor oppressed mages (AGAIN).

Mages turning into abominations has always been depicted as a result of some rash action by the mage*, either making a deal with a demon or using blood magic. A mage doesn't just turn into one willy-nilly just because they're a mage. That is what training and education, paired with decent treatment, is supposed to be for, so mages don't resort to doing things that will get them turned into abominations. That is also what the Harrowing is supposed to test for, that type of weakness. As we see in the DAO mage origin, those sorts of temptations by demons are very real. It's true that it was a setup by the templars and First Enchanter, but that doesn't obviate the effectiveness of the test.

 

We don't see any instances of that specifically in DAI, but there IS talk of abominations; I believe Cullen mentions them in one dialogue after In Hushed Whispers, and I think Vivienne does as well. It is still a possibility, even if we don't see it in the game.

 

 

* I am referring to the scary, fleshy, uncontrolled abominations we've seen, not combos like Wynne/Faith or Anders/Justice.

[Gervaise]

It wasn't just about mages turning into abominations.   There was also the dangers of improper use of magic having really disastrous effects on the world at large.   The big hole in the sky demonstrates this.   As does Alexius manipulating time.     Whoever was originally responsible for the Blight, I think it is still going to prove to have been some sort of misuse of magic.    This was one of the few reason that you could actually have for closely monitoring mages.   I emphasise monitoring rather than shutting them up in closed communities because in fact that created problems in itself.    The more magic you have concentrated in a location, the thinner the Veil becomes and the greater the risk of possession.   It is a vicious Circle (no  pun intended)

 

The other fear that non-mage secular rulers would have is that magic gives you an edge, so makes it easier to challenge their rule.   This was largely the reason for ensuring that all peasant mages are safely confined and lose all contact with their families or the outside world in general, whereas the children of nobles, or those sponsored by nobles (like Vivienne) have completely different treatment.  

 

The mages in Redcliffe actually play into this last fear because when things are getting tough, they sell out to a hostile foreign power.    They were given the protection of Redcliffe Castle at the express wish of the monarch.   It is the most defensible castle in all Ferelden, so even if the Templars had attacked, they could have held out for weeks, by which time the monarch would have intervened.   Instead they handed it over to a Tevinter magister.   That is just the sort of thing that the ordinary people fear that mages will do, allow Tevinter to take over again and enslave them. 

 

That was the reason I used for going to the Templars.   There was a lot of weird magic going on that I didn't understand, Fiona looked as though she could have possibly been got at by blood magic and there were all those tranquil skulls in the shed.   So rather than walk into an obvious trap, it seemed better to get some magic negating experts on side, deal with the Breach and then deal with the Magister.   As it turned out, the Magister came to me.

[Arshei]

It just proved that Templar and Chantry are wrong all these time, Mages are not becoming abominations just like that, they only forced to become one, and this is proven in previous game. No Mages become abomination as simply as wake up in the morning and then "bwahahaha" killing everyone. Even the powerful one, the Dreamer, like Fenriyel didn't become abomination so easy.

 

It just Chantry propaganda who want to create fear and control. Yes, Mages are victims, yes Templars and Chantry are wrong.

 

You can't be that of a fool.

Maybe in Gameplay you can't notice it, but in lore and reality, Abominations are very powerful.

 

Did you hear why Meredith became a templar? her sister was a mage and her family protected her, one day she became an abomination because she wasn't able to control her power, she killed her parents and 60 peasants more from the Village.

 

The Circle is a better option than just killing them or burning they alive for being a mage, that is what they should do. But in the circle if they are cunning enough they can get free, like Wynne, Uldred, Vivienne, etc.

[thesuperdarkone2]

It wasn't just about mages turning into abominations. There was also the dangers of improper use of magic having really disastrous effects on the world at large. The big hole in the sky demonstrates this. As does Alexius manipulating time. Whoever was originally responsible for the Blight, I think it is still going to prove to have been some sort of misuse of magic. This was one of the few reason that you could actually have for closely monitoring mages. I emphasise monitoring rather than shutting them up in closed communities because in fact that created problems in itself. The more magic you have concentrated in a location, the thinner the Veil becomes and the greater the risk of possession. It is a vicious Circle (no pun intended)

The other fear that non-mage secular rulers would have is that magic gives you an edge, so makes it easier to challenge their rule. This was largely the reason for ensuring that all peasant mages are safely confined and lose all contact with their families or the outside world in general, whereas the children of nobles, or those sponsored by nobles (like Vivienne) have completely different treatment.

The mages in Redcliffe actually play into this last fear because when things are getting tough, they sell out to a hostile foreign power. They were given the protection of Redcliffe Castle at the express wish of the monarch. It is the most defensible castle in all Ferelden, so even if the Templars had attacked, they could have held out for weeks, but which time the monarch would have intervened. Instead they handed it over to a Tevinter magister. That is just the sort of thing that the ordinary people fear that mages will do, allow Tevinter to take over again and enslave them.

That was the reason I used for going to the Templars. There was a lot of weird magic going on that I didn't understand, Fiona looked as though she could have possibly been got at by blood magic and there were all those tranquil skulls in the shed. So rather than walk into an obvious trap, it seemed better to get some magic negating experts on side, deal with the Breach and then deal with the Magister. As it turned out, the Magister came to me.

Apart from you know the advisors saying the mages will be gone if you go to the Templars

[Catilina]

[...]

That was the reason I used for going to the Templars.   There was a lot of weird magic going on that I didn't understand, Fiona looked as though she could have possibly been got at by blood magic and there were all those tranquil skulls in the shed.   So rather than walk into an obvious trap, it seemed better to get some magic negating experts on side, deal with the Breach and then deal with the Magister.   As it turned out, the Magister came to me.

And do you think, a pile of fanatics lyrium addicts qualified to judge the situation well? They have proven, that they are how good at it!

 

Just look at how effective was Ser Gregor against Uldred (be able to close the door and ask for help ...)

And Meredith... with her mighty willpower. (In the end she becomes to abomination!)

 

Really worth it trust them!

Użytkownik Catilina edytował ten post wczoraj, 04:36

[Xilizhra]

The mages in Redcliffe actually play into this last fear because when things are getting tough, they sell out to a hostile foreign power.    They were given the protection of Redcliffe Castle at the express wish of the monarch.   It is the most defensible castle in all Ferelden, so even if the Templars had attacked, they could have held out for weeks, by which time the monarch would have intervened.   Instead they handed it over to a Tevinter magister.   That is just the sort of thing that the ordinary people fear that mages will do, allow Tevinter to take over again and enslave them.

Good ****** grief, this again? Tell me how it was ever in the power of the mage rebellion to rip Teagan and all of his men out of the castle. And how, if they had such power, the Venatori delegation could hold them in such terror.

[Arshei]

 

Abominations aren't in DA:I because of a plot hole, same with kids, that's why logically a "goodguy" inquisitor would choose mages, because they are stupid kids who need protection, and templars are adults and warriors who if can't deny being controlled by the chantry is their fault.

[Catilina]

Abominations aren't in DA:I because of a plot hole, same with kids, that's why logically a "goodguy" inquisitor would choose mages, because they are stupid kids who need protection, and templars are adults and warriors who if can't deny being controlled by the chantry is their fault.

My Inquisitor offered to ser Barris, to join to Inquisition. He choosed this mad Seeker Lucius freely. It was his decision.

[Sah291]

In DAI with rifts opening up everywhere, why would demons need to possess mages when they could just easily enter the world directly? That's the whole purpose of possession, to cross the Veil to enter the world of the living and interact with it.

Besides, they seemed to want to shift away from the Mage-Templar conflict early on, so there just wasn't as much focus on it in general, and it was resolved quickly. I don't think that means we should assume there are no longer any conflicts or drawbacks to being a mage now. The story just wasn't foucused on that so much this time.

There is still an inherent energy costs to magic, and Mages really don't have unlimited power. Like Templars they have to use lyrium for large spells, requiring a lot of power,

As far as the game being biased in favor of mages, I really don't think so. Blood magic is still considered immoral and dangerous, according to the narrative. The two most important main villians are mages- Cory and Solas.

Killing someone with your mind is an intent. It can be done with any method or weapon a person can find or utilize, and attacking or killing someone for no reason is still just as wrong no matter how it is done. The method doesn't change the morality of murder being inherently wrong and immoral, always, except maybe in self defense as a last resort.

[Dai Grepher]

There are abominations in DA:I, just not the twisted versions. The ones we see were all willing participants in the possession.

The reason why we don't see the twisted version is because demons are pouring through the rifts. The Veil is weaker, so they just pass through without much effort. Before the Breach it was must more difficult for them to pass through the Veil, so they needed a mage as a link between the Fade and the Real to cross through the Veil.

[Dai Grepher]

My Inquisitor offered to ser Barris, to join to Inquisition. He choosed this mad Seeker Lucius freely. It was his decision.

He only went with Lucius in order to give the Herald a way into the Templar Order. He sends word to Cullen soon after arriving at Therinfal informing of the location.

[Catilina]

He only went with Lucius in order to give the Herald a way into the Templar Order. He sends word to Cullen soon after arriving at Therinfal informing of the location.

He had the opportunity to personally tell. Seeker Lucius was extremely arrogant and unacceptable (especially as mage Inquisitor). If Ser Barris go with him, then let him go.

[Illegitimus]

Is nobody seriously concerned with the fact that there's literally no more downsides to being a mage? You don't turn into an abomination, 

 

Well...you don't turn into an abomination as long as demons don't need to screw around with humans inviting them in to get into the physical world.  They can just walk through one of the big holes.  Once the holes are closed, I suspect things go back to normal.  

[Toasted Llama]

I don't believe we know either way. Since magic does run in families and the Tevinter altus class breeds for magic, and are pretty successful at it, genetics is involved in some capacity.

There are all sort of theories as to how humans and qunari got their magic, but they are all exactly that: theories. We know that humans came to Thedas from elsewhere and that elves are the true natives. But we don't know if humans had magic before then, or not. We don't know if human magic is a result of mixing with elves. We don't know if qunari magic is a result from experimentation by Tevinters.

 

Mages turning into abominations has always been depicted as a result of some rash action by the mage*, either making a deal with a demon or using blood magic. A mage doesn't just turn into one willy-nilly just because they're a mage. That is what training and education, paired with decent treatment, is supposed to be for, so mages don't resort to doing things that will get them turned into abominations. That is also what the Harrowing is supposed to test for, that type of weakness. As we see in the DAO mage origin, those sorts of temptations by demons are very real. It's true that it was a setup by the templars and First Enchanter, but that doesn't obviate the effectiveness of the test.

 

We don't see any instances of that specifically in DAI, but there IS talk of abominations; I believe Cullen mentions them in one dialogue after In Hushed Whispers, and I think Vivienne does as well. It is still a possibility, even if we don't see it in the game.

 

 

* I am referring to the scary, fleshy, uncontrolled abominations we've seen, not combos like Wynne/Faith or Anders/Justice.

 

Fair point about the genetics. I wasn't entirely sure on that point, since I couldn't remember whether or not Tevinter successfully 'breeds' mages.

 

Also, I want to point out for a second that I didn't mean that mages become abominations willy nilly, just that they CAN be taken over by demons and turn into abominations if they're too power hungry, which is exclusive to mages.

 

That said, there's talk of it in DA:I, but it's not shown, which weakens the argument greatly in my opinion. Looking at DA:I as an isolated case, there's no evidence presented to the player that the possibility of mages turning into abominations is true.

 

 

 

In DAI with rifts opening up everywhere, why would demons need to possess mages when they could just easily enter the world directly? That's the whole purpose of possession, to cross the Veil to enter the world of the living and interact with it.

Besides, they seemed to want to shift away from the Mage-Templar conflict early on, so there just wasn't as much focus on it in general, and it was resolved quickly. I don't think that means we should assume there are no longer any conflicts or drawbacks to being a mage now. The story just wasn't foucused on that so much this time.

There is still an inherent energy costs to magic, and Mages really don't have unlimited power. Like Templars they have to use lyrium for large spells, requiring a lot of power,

As far as the game being biased in favor of mages, I really don't think so. Blood magic is still considered immoral and dangerous, according to the narrative. The two most important main villians are mages- Cory and Solas.

Killing someone with your mind is an intent. It can be done with any method or weapon a person can find or utilize, and attacking or killing someone for no reason is still just as wrong no matter how it is done. The method doesn't change the morality of murder being inherently wrong and immoral, always, except maybe in self defense as a last resort.

 

I was under the impression that taking over the body of a mage made the demon more powerfull as well, but I could be wrong in that regard.

 

I don't think it's a good idea to shift away from the mage/templar conflict when they still provide an important mage/templar choice while not properly highlighting the arguments for either side.

 

Yes, magic has an energy cost, but so is stamina for normal people. Yet all you can do with stamina is move your body and possibly punch, hack or stab a person, with magic there's unlimited possibilities.

 

Yet the game also consistently tries to have the player symphathize with mages and dislike the Templars. If they've tried to make it more grey, they've done a pretty poor job.

 

When I said kill someone with their brain I meant that it takes a lot less effort/risk for a mage to kill someone than a say a warrior.

[Arshei]

In DAI with rifts opening up everywhere, why would demons need to possess mages when they could just easily enter the world directly? That's the whole purpose of possession, to cross the Veil to enter the world of the living and interact with it.

Besides, they seemed to want to shift away from the Mage-Templar conflict early on, so there just wasn't as much focus on it in general, and it was resolved quickly. I don't think that means we should assume there are no longer any conflicts or drawbacks to being a mage now. The story just wasn't foucused on that so much this time.

There is still an inherent energy costs to magic, and Mages really don't have unlimited power. Like Templars they have to use lyrium for large spells, requiring a lot of power,

As far as the game being biased in favor of mages, I really don't think so. Blood magic is still considered immoral and dangerous, according to the narrative. The two most important main villians are mages- Cory and Solas.

Killing someone with your mind is an intent. It can be done with any method or weapon a person can find or utilize, and attacking or killing someone for no reason is still just as wrong no matter how it is done. The method doesn't change the morality of murder being inherently wrong and immoral, always, except maybe in self defense as a last resort.

 

Demons are more powerful when they enter in a human body, specially if it is a mage body, so I wouldn't consider that argument as viable. They can pretend to be human, like Kitty. That way they can even be more powerful.

[IllustriousT]

Well...you don't turn into an abomination as long as demons don't need to screw around with humans inviting them in to get into the physical world.  They can just walk through one of the big holes.  Once the holes are closed, I suspect things go back to normal.  

 

I foresee Abomination redesigns for DA4, like they did for the Darkspawn. I hope they do, and make many variations. 

 

 

Edited to add:

Something like this from one of Bioware's Senior character designers. Not really sure what this is really for, probably not DA related, but one can hope. 

[Sah291]

Yet the game also consistently tries to have the player symphathize with mages and dislike the Templars. If they've tried to make it more grey, they've done a pretty poor job.
 
When I said kill someone with their brain I meant that it takes a lot less effort/risk for a mage to kill someone than a say a warrior.

You might think so if you are focusing more on the Templar side, but I really don't see that bias there. Many of the main arguments in favor of mage freedom were challenged and called into question in DAI, to show the other side and the cost of the war.

As for killing being less effort. I don't think so. Mages have to train for years to be able to control and focus their abilities to do that sort of stuff. Just like someone would need to train a weapon or condition their physical body.

  

Demons are more powerful when they enter in a human body, specially if it is a mage body, so I wouldn't consider that argument as viable. They can pretend to be human, like Kitty. That way they can even be more powerful.

Yes because with the Veil, they need a body to interact with the physical world. But with the Veil removed or in areas with rifts, they could do this directly. There is no need to imitate humans if humans can interact and sense them directly.

But anyway, just because they didn't have any main plots focusing on abominations doesn't mean there weren't any. You could argue Cory was one. Is being an abomination simply being possessed, or does being tainted or effected by red lyrium qualify?

I think in DAI they tried to show the other side: spirits being bound and enslaved by humans.

[thats1evildude]

There are abominations in DAI; they just don't use the abomination model. And the threat of possession is discussed in codexes, in dialogue and on the War Table.

I just think they scaled back on the use of abominations because they were over-used in the first two games and because they wanted to put more focus on the new enemies like Red Templars.

[Arshei]

Yes because with the Veil, they need a body to interact with the physical world. But with the Veil removed or in areas with rifts, they could do this directly. There is no need to imitate humans if humans can interact and sense them directly.

But anyway, just because they didn't have any main plots focusing on abominations doesn't mean there weren't any. You could argue Cory was one. Is being an abomination simply being possessed, or does being tainted or effected by red lyrium qualify?

I think in DAI they tried to show the other side: spirits being bound and enslaved by humans.

Then the demons we've seen in DA:I are very weak compared to the demon inside Connor, Uldred, Anders, etc.

------

Corypheous is a darkspawn... not an abomination.

We've seen the whole saga there is no difference between a demon and a spirit, they are both dangerous, and they are not complex like people.

[Catilina]

There are abominations in DAI; they just don't use the abomination model. And the threat of possession is discussed in codexes, in dialogue and on the War Table.

I just think they scaled back on the use of abominations because they were over-used in the first two games and because they wanted to put more focus on the new enemies like Red Templars.

Most of the red templars are abomination.

[Arshei]

Most of the red templars are abomination.

 

The Red Templars are a splinter faction of rebel Templars, who have become corrupted by the use of the so-called "Red Lyrium".

 

They are not abominations, they are like Tamlen with the Blight, they were changed but not possessed, like the broodmothers.

Seeker Lucius was a demon in human form, not an abomination.

[Catilina]

The Red Templars are a splinter faction of rebel Templars, who have become corrupted by the use of the so-called "Red Lyrium".

 

They are not abominations, they are like Tamlen with the Blight, they were changed but not possessed, like the broodmothers.

Seeker Lucius was a demon in human form, not an abomination.

Why? They are not quite abominable?  And each one a walking proof of the reliability of the Templars. I love them...