All of them were mages.
When a white person kill someone is because he's crazy or sick. When a black person kill someone is because he is black.
Are you serious...? I am a Muslim, so that automatically make me a terrorist who at anytime will strap my body with bombs, going to a mall, shouting "Allahuakbar!" and blow myself up just because i feel like want to do it and Muslims do that stuff?
Elthina had power. Elthina was not a passerby who did not dare to intervene ... but not this is the point. The point is: Anders blew the chantry with such a method, which anyone can use, not only a mage.
All crazy serial killer find a way to kill, not only a mage.
What about Jowan? He was not crazy. Jowan worked as an assassin, and he used a method, what use an assassin. Oh, he used blood magic to escape? Oh my! (My Hawke is a blood mage... no problem)
And why Connor is the best example against the Circle-system? Because he was untrained. Why? Because Isolde was afraid to let him go to the Circle. She afraid of losing him forever. Why? Because it usually happens in the mege children and their parents.
Who cares what Anders is? he did it for the mages, in name of the mages and representing the mages.
So death is death? it doesn't matter how you died? because it isn't the same being the puppet of a blood mage than dying in a fight with swords.
- (My Hawke is a blood mage... no problem)
Well that's just stupid.
I didn't said the blood magic was the problem, the problem was escaping, lying and attacking people because he was jealous, he admits he went with blood magic because the warden was a better mage than him and he hated that, he tried to change when he met Lily, but now Lily is in the mage prision and Jowan in your game is probably running free in a castle made of blood.
Because of Connor stupidity, and her mother being even more stupid, the people of Redcliffe payed the consequences. Only a possessed mage can make an army of undead, if Connor would have been killed before or sent to the circle, that would never have happened, and if Jowan wouldn't have escaped, then Arl Eamon wouldn't have been posioned, not at least by a mage, since Jowan was in redcliffe because he was teaching magic to Connor.
Are you serious...? I am a Muslim, so that automatically make me a terrorist who at anytime will strap my body with bombs, going to a mall, shouting "Allahuakbar!" and blow myself up just because i feel like want to do it and Muslims do that stuff?
That's why I said before that I didn't liked blaming mages for things like what Anders did.
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Calm down girl, you're bomb.
That's why I said before that I didn't liked blaming mages for things like what Anders did.
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Calm down girl, you're bomb.
Who cares what Anders is? he did it for the mages, in name of the mages and representing the mages.
Terrorist don't represent anyone, only themselves, no one elect them or ask them to become representative, no one. So whatever they claim to be, it just their claim, what they done is their own.
Terrorist don't represent anyone, only themselves, no one elect them or ask them to become representative, no one. So whatever they claim to be, it just their claim, what they done is their own.
Anders did what a lot of mages thought on doing, even Orsino, of course not every mage is a terrorist, but I was asked for examples of dangerous mages, and I gave them.
Orsino even knew about Quantin and he never cared, a shame Hawke can't know that before picking a side.
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"No one elect them or ask them to become representative"
In a society with equals, or religions in the case you mention, everyone represent everyone, I'm not saying I like the world being that way, but I am not going to change the world, as I said before, mages are dangerous, and we have proof of that, but it seems it isn't enough a testimony of the sister of a weak mage killing people because she couldn't control her powers.
Who cares what Anders is? he did it for the mages, in name of the mages and representing the mages.
So death is death? it doesn't matter how you died? because it isn't the same being the puppet of a blood mage than dying in a fight with swords.
- (My Hawke is a blood mage... no problem)
Well that's just stupid.
I didn't said the blood magic was the problem, the problem was escaping, lying and attacking people because he was jealous, he admits he went with blood magic because the warden was a better mage than him and he hated that, he tried to change when he met Lily, but now Lily is in the mage prision and Jowan in your game is probably running free in a castle made of blood.
Because of Connor stupidity, and her mother being even more stupid, the people of Redcliffe payed the consequences. Only a possessed mage can make an army of undead, if Connor would have been killed before or sent to the circle, that would never have happened, and if Jowan wouldn't have escaped, then Arl Eamon wouldn't have been posioned, not at least by a mage, since Jowan was in redcliffe because he was teaching magic to Connor.
And why did Anders?* Because the Circle is not good. That's why. Yes for the mages. But this does not prove that the Circle is good ... (This was the basic idea) (And no matter but my Hawke supported him from the beginning until the end, and beyond. The method was wrong, the goal was true.)
Yes, death is death. Whether it was caused by poison or sword or magic.
If Jowan had not run away, Loghain find someone else to poison Aemon Arl. (Your opinion: Jowan had think : Look! Here's a man! What fun would poison him!)
Not Jowan teached Connor to summon that much undead... this is ridiculos!. You said: Jowan was weaker mage than the Warden. This is true.. Jowan was not very skilled mage.
Jealousy is not mental illness.
And why was Connor's mother stupid? Because she do not want to send her son to the prison. (I hope I will not have to write once more.)
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*Because if Anders not blew the chantry, it would be not easy to choose the Templars. More drama.
Anders did what a lot of mages thought on doing, even Orsino, of course not every mage is a terrorist, but I was asked for examples of dangerous mages, and I gave them.
Orsino even knew about Quantin and he never cared, a shame Hawke can't know that before picking a side.
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"No one elect them or ask them to become representative"
In a society with equals, or religions in the case you mention, everyone represent everyone, I'm not saying I like the world being that way, but I am not going to change the world, as I said before, mages are dangerous, and we have proof of that, but it seems it isn't enough a testimony of the sister of a weak mage killing people because she couldn't control her powers.
Do ISIS blow people up is what i am thinking on doing? I never think on blowing peoples up, what i am always thinking is doing blow jobs...so no, whatever they claim they don't represent me or any Muslims, just themselves. Even if someone give me bombs, or guns, i cannot kill peoples, no matter how they say "it is God's will", no, because it is not me and i know they are wrong. Even if they force me to pull the trigger, i can't, and i rather die than pulling the trigger to kill someone or anyone.
If you give a gun to a kid, believe me that kid won't shoot anyone, the kid will never just pull the trigger to shoot peoples around "because they cannot control what they're doing". The are no weak or strong kid to handle guns, kids are kids, guns are guns, the guns only blow up if you pull the trigger, it won't blow up just because someone not able to control between pulling the trigger or not pulling the trigger...
Just don't push the button, that's all
If you give a gun to a kid, believe me that kid won't shoot anyone, the kid will never just pull the trigger to shoot peoples around "because they cannot control what they're doing". The are no weak or strong kid to handle guns, kids are kids, guns are guns, the guns only blow up if you pull the trigger, it won't blow up just because someone not able to control between pulling the trigger or not pulling the trigger...
Just don't push the button, that's all
And I was planning on use the kids as an example of how dangerous mages are... one of the reasons you don't give a minigun to a kid is because he is going to kill everyone, maybe not intentionally, like mages becoming an abomination, but it is still dangerous.
Being a mage is like being a kid with grenades.
And why did Anders?* Because the Circle is not good. That's why. Yes for the mages. But this does not prove that the Circle is good ... (This was the basic idea) (And no matter but my Hawke supported him from the beginning until the end, and beyond. The method was wrong, the goal was true.)
Yes, death is death. Whether it was caused by poison or sword or magic.
If Jowan had not run away, Loghain find someone else to poison Aemon Arl. (Your opinion: Jowan had think : Look! Here's a man! What fun would poison him!)
Not Jowan teached Connor to summon that much undead... this is ridiculos!. You said: Jowan was weaker mage than the Warden. This is true.. Jowan was not very skilled mage.
Jealousy is not mental illness.
And why was Connor's mother stupid? Because she do not want to send her son to the prison. (I hope I will not have to write once more.)
____
*Because if Anders not blew the chantry, it would ne not easy to choose the templars. More drama.
I still don't get why you think the Circle is wrong.
The only reason is that there were corrupted templars?, because the circle of Ferelden from DA:O was everything love and sunshine. Specially since the parents of the magi Warden never cared about him/her.
I am just going to pretend you didn't said that about Isolde.
You seem to prefer little abominations running above green grass killing everyone.
A Hogwarts wouldn't work darling, what if a Kid gets possessed while he is going to the school? he is going to kill a lot of people.
Since you think the end justify the means., then lets kill every mage in Thedas, so we can be sure no mage is going to blow up things, became an abomination, etc. If the price to save thousands of people is killing a few hundred of mages, seems like a fair deal.
You can't be that of a fool.
Maybe in Gameplay you can't notice it, but in lore and reality, Abominations are very powerful.
Did you hear why Meredith became a templar? her sister was a mage and her family protected her, one day she became an abomination because she wasn't able to control her power, she killed her parents and 60 peasants more from the Village.
The Circle is a better option than just killing them or burning they alive for being a mage, that is what they should do. But in the circle if they are cunning enough they can get free, like Wynne, Uldred, Vivienne, etc.
I'm pretty sure the result of her sister becoming an abomination was an result of her neighbors calling the templars out of fear of her magical abilities. She then made a deal with a demon as a result. I don't recall it being over her not being able to control her powers. The Chantry, however, has a historically bad past with their handling of mages. You're right abominations are very real, but as we see, it's not a result of just waking up and being a mage. No need for insults, she was just stating a opinion.
Mages are, in theory, simply super special snowflake elves, humans and qunari. They get magic abilities "just because". If my memory serves me well it's not even caused by genetics. They can shoot fireballs from their palms and lightning from their fingertips. They can raise the dead as their own personal army or prevent a living person from joining the dead. Basically they control the living and the dead with a hand gesture. Some have (ab)used this to raise themselves to a divine status. All of that just because.
Honestly that's all fine and dandy! Really, I genuinely don't mind some people being super strong because of their birth, since the original idea - to counter all of this awesome - seemed to be that mages are extremely susceptible to hostile takeover from a demon and turning into an abomination. There is this nice balance of danger to all that power. There's a risk involved and people were rightfully frightened of mages. It was an interesting conflict. Awesome power that can be used for good, but terrible results if handled improperly.
But by DA:I there's almost none of that stuff left. There's no (I couldn't remember any so I checked the wiki. Turns out, yes. They literally don't appear in DA:I at all.) evidence on screen in DA:I that mages turn into abominations. Even while there was a bloody hole in the Veil and angry demons pouring out of it. Seriously?!
So who needs the Templars and the Circle anyway? Nobody is turning into abominations. Apparently most mages can just teach themselves and keep themselves free from enslavement. Look at Morrigan, she turned out just fine, right? Look at Hawke, also completely fine! And as a cherry on top; Templars are evil boogiemen who physically and sexually abuse mages.
Brilliant. Now everyone will automatically symphathize with these poor victims of oppression, who can shoot lightning from their fingertips and give them all the freedom they want.
Wait, what?
Is nobody seriously concerned with the fact that there's literally no more downsides to being a mage? You don't turn into an abomination, everyone who dislikes or distrusts you is a filthy bigot and oppressor and you are a strong independant mage who need no Circle to teach him/her how to learn magic.
Where's the balance? The consequences? The negatives? Do mages just get all those powers at no cost whatsoever? The ability to kill people with their brain just for the lulz? I think most people will agree that perfect characters are boring and characters with flaws and virtues are the most relatable, so why do mages get a pass to become essentially the perfect victims?
I have no problems whatsoever with display of discrimination nor the victimization itself. But balance the unlimited power of mages with some negative consequences or a 'price'. And show it in the actual games. Don't just imply it happens. And give the Templars some slack and show some redeeming qualities. The mage-templar discussion as gotten so incredibly one sided that - during the decision of whose help you get in DA:I - I tried to flip and toss every stone to find a proper excuse to help the Templars and not the poor oppressed mages (AGAIN).
I assume we'll be getting some answers in the next game, seeing how we will more than likely be in Tevinter. Seeing how things over there are completely different than what we are used to seeing in southern thedas, it may be a good insight into seeing how mages rule and govern themselves and negative affects it may have.
I'm pretty sure the result of her sister becoming an abomination was an result of her neighbors calling the templars out of fear of her magical abilities. She then made a deal with a demon as a result. I don't recall it being over her not being able to control her powers. The Chantry, however, has a historically bad past with their handling of mages. You're right abominations are very real, but as we see, it's not a result of just waking up and being a mage. No need for insults, she was just stating a opinion.
Being a fool isn't an insult. I am pretty and I don't mind people telling me the truth, why you don't tell me that I am pretty?
So?, the chantry was clever enough to claim the mages before anyone, only Tevinter got free from that.
The Circles are necessary, no one wants to be around the leprous kid, and they are not half as bad as people think they are.
Just listen a minute to Wynne, Vivienne, Irving.
Stop being brainwashed by Anders, Solas and Morrigan.
And I was planning on use the kids as an example of how dangerous mages are... one of the reasons you don't give a minigun to a kid is because he is going to kill everyone, maybe not intentionally, like mages becoming an abomination, but it is still dangerous.
Being a mage is like being a kid with grenades.
You miss the point, even giving kids a gun, the gun only blow if the kids pull the trigger. Just don't pull the trigger. Are kids not able to control their self not to pull the trigger?
The excuse is Mages are fragile beings, unstable, unpredictable, they cannot control their self on what they're doing...that is unacceptable.
Even animals can control their self without training, cats can control their paws not to scratch you without you telling them, are Mages worse than cats IQ?
Cats only scratch you if you provoke them to...and so they feel threatened...
And I was planning on use the kids as an example of how dangerous mages are... one of the reasons you don't give a minigun to a kid is because he is going to kill everyone, maybe not intentionally, like mages becoming an abomination, but it is still dangerous.
Being a mage is like being a kid with grenades.
I still don't get why you think the Circle is wrong.
The only reason is that there were corrupted templars?, because the circle of Ferelden from DA:O was everything love and sunshine. Specially since the parents of the magi Warden never cared about him/her.
I am just going to pretend you didn't said that about Isolde.
You seem to prefer little abominations running above green grass killing everyone.
A Hogwarts wouldn't work darling, what if a Kid gets possessed while he is going to the school? he is going to kill a lot of people.
Since you think the end justify the means., then lets kill every mage in Thedas, so we can be sure no mage is going to blow up things, became an abomination, etc. If the price to save thousands of people is killing a few hundred of mages, seems like a fair deal.
So many times have I told you, why not work the Circle-system. Its cruel AND useless. You said: if you are clever, you can go out of the Circle. Then? Anyone can walk around freely, is not it? Just see: Quentin. He was free... Where was the Templars? Ergo: the Circle are useless. And cruel, because, who not enough "clever", or "reliable", they stay in the prison. (Remember Karl! What was the reason to his tranquility? An attempt to escape?)
And the Templars? Lyrium addict wretches!
You miss the point, even giving kids a gun, the gun only blow if the kids pull the trigger. Just don't pull the trigger. Are kids not able to control their self not to pull the trigger?
The excuse is Mages are fragile beings, unstable, unpredictable, they cannot control their self on what they're doing...that is unacceptable.
Even animals can control their self without training, cats can control their paws not to scratch you without you telling them, are Mages worse than cats IQ?
Cats only scratch you if you provoke them to...and so they feel threatened...
I think you didn't played DA:2.
So many times have I told you, why not work the Circle-system. Its cruel AND useless. You said: if you are clever, you can go out of the Circle. Then? Anyone can walk around freely, is not it? Just see: Quentin. He was free... Where was the Templars? Ergo: the Circle are useless. And cruel, because, who not enough "clever", or "reliable", they stay in the prison. (Remember Karl! What was the reason to his tranquility? An attempt to escape?)
And the Templars? Lyrium addict wretches!
Corruption, that's like saying the inquisition is cruel and useless because some agent of the inquisition took advantage to doing things they shouldn't.
Quentin was free, Orsino knew and he never told anything to the templars, what caused this? Hawke's mother being murdered.
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You say that templars are useless as if mages were inteligent or strong. I still don't see you giving options of an option better than lock up every mage there is.
Being a fool isn't an insult. I am pretty and I don't mind people telling me the truth, why you don't tell me that I am pretty?
So?, the chantry was clever enough to claim the mages before anyone, only Tevinter got free from that.
The Circles are necessary, no one wants to be around the leprous kid, and they are not half as bad as people think they are.
Just listen a minute to Wynne, Vivienne, Irving.
Stop being brainwashed by Anders, Solas and Morrigan.
The word "fool,' unless you're Mr. T, is sometimes woefully inadequate to express the stupidity of the person you're talking about. Pretty insulting to some, but I digress...
I don't think they claimed mages, just cleverly crippled them with propaganda and half truths by scaring the general public into believing mages "ARE THE DEVIL". Never really cared for Morrigan, but they all make valid points, as do Vivenne, but she never lived a life inside the Circle as I recall. Irving was a 'yes masta a**' and not even he believed the Circle was a good thing for mages, just what other alternatives did they really have? I believe Anders made things worse, but I too believe things were eventually headed in that direction. The circle was the only option at the time but seeing how the mages will now govern themselves in the near future, I think that was a better solution than previously being locked up and following a set of rules set by the Chantry to oppress the mages. Whether I'm right to assume that is to be seen.
[...]
Corruption, that's like saying the inquisition is cruel and useless because some agent of the inquisition took advantage to doing things they shouldn't.
Quentin was free, Orsino knew and he never told anything to the templars, what caused this? Hawke's mother being murdered.
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You say that templars are useless as if mages were inteligent or strong. I still don't see you giving options of an option better than lock up every mage there is.
The Circle-system are wrong, because innocent people / children hold captive, the rest of the people in fear. This conception is threaten both groups. The mage children don’t learn, because their parents do not allow them into the circle (understandably), so they will not be able to understand and use properly their talents. Therefore they become really dangerous. Corruption is just icing on the cake.
The system also not good fot the Templars (the lyrium are dangerous). True, they are free to choose their destiny.
School and library. This would be better, than the Circle system.
A murderer who killed Hawke's mother, not a "mage". Do you know what a murderer? If a soldier/accountant kills anyone a woman because of her nice long hair and smooth skin, do not blame the "soldiers/accountants" ...
The Circle-system are wrong, because innocent people / children hold captive, the rest of the people in fear. This conception is threaten both groups. The mage children don’t learn, because their parents do not allow them into the circle (understandably), so they will not be able to understand and use properly their talents. Therefore they become really dangerous.
The sistem also not good fot the Templars (the lyrium are dangerous). True, they are free to choose their destiny.
School and library. This would be better, than the Circle system.
(In addition: In the Circle Towers are a lot of mages together in one place. Concentrated magic, stress and hopelessness.
The Veil may weakened from the concentrated magic, and the stress and hopelessness makes mages easy prey for demons. – I think.)
The Circle-system are wrong, because innocent people / children hold captive, the rest of the people in fear. This conception is threaten both groups. The mage children don’t learn, because their parents do not allow them into the circle (understandably), so they will not be able to understand and use properly their talents. Therefore they become really dangerous. Corruption is just icing on the cake.
The system also not good fot the Templars (the lyrium are dangerous). True, they are free to choose their destiny.
School and library. This would be better, than the Circle system.
A murderer who killed Hawke's mother, not a "mage". Do you know what a murderer? If a soldier/accountant kills anyone a woman because of her nice long hair and smooth skin, do not blame the "soldiers/accountants" ...
The Circle-system are wrong, because innocent people / children hold captive, the rest of the people in fear. This conception is threaten both groups. The mage children don’t learn, because their parents do not allow them into the circle (understandably), so they will not be able to understand and use properly their talents. Therefore they become really dangerous.
The sistem also not good fot the Templars (the lyrium are dangerous). True, they are free to choose their destiny.
School and library. This would be better, than the Circle system.
(In addition: In the Circle Towers are a lot of mages together in one place. Concentrated magic, stress and hopelessness.
The Veil may weakened from the concentrated magic, and the stress and hopelessness makes mages easy prey for demons. – I think.)
The family of the mage in the circle can visit him/her and send letters, did you played DA:2?
Ohhh, so cruel, they took away my baby because he can set the house on fire by moving his fingers. Life is unfair darling, why there is poor people and rich people? why do kids have to work?
As I said before, what would happen if the kid set his house on fire during a dream? or accidentally makes a deal with a demon, becomes an abomination and kills an entire village?, or what will happen if the people around the kid don't want mages around them so they burn him alive?
Circles protect people from mages, as well as mages are protected from people.
The family of the mage in the circle can visit him/her and send letters, did you played DA:2?
Ohhh, so cruel, they took away my baby because he can set the house on fire by moving his fingers. Life is unfair darling, why there is poor people and rich people? why do kids have to work?
As I said before, what would happen if the kid set his house on fire during a dream? or accidentally makes a deal with a demon, becomes an abomination and kills an entire village?, or what will happen if the people around the kid don't want mages around them so they burn him alive?
Circles protect people from mages, as well as mages are protected from people.
Therefore, they must have schools. Anyway, what I argue? This is my opinion and you have one too. You like it when innocent people are imprisoned, I not. Never mind. This is a game.
The family of the mage in the circle can visit him/her and send letters, did you played DA:2?
Ohhh, so cruel, they took away my baby because he can set the house on fire by moving his fingers. Life is unfair darling, why there is poor people and rich people? why do kids have to work?
As I said before, what would happen if the kid set his house on fire during a dream? or accidentally makes a deal with a demon, becomes an abomination and kills an entire village?, or what will happen if the people around the kid don't want mages around them so they burn him alive?
Circles protect people from mages, as well as mages are protected from people.
So who needs the Templars and the Circle anyway? Nobody is turning into abominations. Apparently most mages can just teach themselves and keep themselves free from enslavement. Look at Morrigan, she turned out just fine, right? Look at Hawke, also completely fine! And as a cherry on top; Templars are evil boogiemen who physically and sexually abuse mages.
Brilliant. Now everyone will automatically symphathize with these poor victims of oppression, who can shoot lightning from their fingertips and give them all the freedom they want.
You miss the point, even giving kids a gun, the gun only blow if the kids pull the trigger. Just don't pull the trigger. Are kids not able to control their self not to pull the trigger?
The excuse is Mages are fragile beings, unstable, unpredictable, they cannot control their self on what they're doing...that is unacceptable.
Even animals can control their self without training, cats can control their paws not to scratch you without you telling them, are Mages worse than cats IQ?
Cats only scratch you if you provoke them to...and so they feel threatened...
Did you forget how only the Mage kids of nobles get that treatment? If you were a peasant, you never saw your family again. You also forgot that Hawke was already a noble and thus Bethany got special treatment
WOT say Anders was taken from the Anderfels all the way to Ferelden so he could never see his family again.
Karl wasn't noble at all and he still received a lot of dirty letters from Anders, we didn't got a lot of information about the circle so you can't claim that only noble peoplecan receive letters, and the "noble people get different treatment" is a lie, we can see that with the Amell grey warden.
FWIW - I've noticed a shift in the portrayal over the course of the 3 games.
In DAO, things were fairly balanced imho. We have Wynne who thinks well of the circle and dedicated apostate Morrigan. We see Knight-Commander Greagoir patiently awaiting the arrival of the official authorization for annulment, but willing to give the Warden an opportunity to resolve the situation without annuling the circle. We see the damage an untrained mage can do in Connor, and Wynne released to assist the Warden. In DAA, we see Wynne and Iona both out of the circle (apparently with permission), whereas Anders had escaped, thus becoming an apostate. I can't say that I ever completely understood the rules, since they weren't always applied evenly to individuals, let alone different circles. In any case, we also have Alistair, a general all-around nice guy and former templar trainee.
Then comes DA2, where the PC we play comes from an apostate family and goes to a city with an extreme Knight-Commander and some mighty abusive templars. The harder Meredith squeezed, the harder the mages pushed back, and we eventually arrived at a point where she ordered an anullment in response to the actions of an apostate.
In DAI, the templars are led by a demon, loads of red lyrium, and actively slaughtering anyone who remotely looks like they might be willing to help a rebel mage whereas the rebel mages 1) didn't *all* want to rebel, and 2) are so desperate as to have gotten involved in a deal with Alexius, poor things.
So I think things have shifted to a point where it's a lot easier to support the abolishment of those evil, wretched prisons known as mage circles. Ahem.
Thematically, I can see abuse of power (as previously mentioned), but I've always seen the whole mage-templar thing as more along the lines of freedom versus security (mundanes enjoy greater security when mage freedom is restricted). The freedom versus security dichotomy fits with tightening TSB travel regulations, the Patriot Act, gun control regulations, etc. - and has apparently been considered for quite awhile, as suggested by this quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
One thing I found particularly interesting in DAI is Cassandra's description of Seeker powers. They can actually kill with their thoughts, no lyrium or blood required? Wow. That's a whole new twist.
Karl wasn't noble at all and he still received a lot of dirty letters from Anders, we didn't got a lot of information about the circle so you can't claim that only noble peoplecan receive letters, and the "noble people get different treatment" is a lie, we can see that with the Amell grey warden.
What a joy to know that the nobles also couldn't see their families again! (The prisons have a visit time and the prisoners can send letters, it does not justify the detention of innocent people)
By the way Karl. What justify his tranquility?
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