414 réponses à ce sujet

[TheAtomicSurvivor]

Personally I just think the whole infrastructure needs to be uprooted. Fintan, my recent Inquisitor and tbh my favorite out of all them, believes Mages should be free, but with consequences like everyone else. No Circles, No Chantries, and No Templars. But not entirely free either, Mages need to be free and accountable, they needed to be educated as Vivienne put it 

 

"the danger to a mage is a lack of knowledge"

 

Mages need to be taught responsibility, they need to be taught the actions of their consequences, without fear, without the Chantry saying they'll turn into abominations. But the kind of responsibility that comes with being a mage.

 

As he is a ward to one of my Inquisitors, see in a real Inquisition you have the Inquisitor, Grand Inquisitor, etc. He comes at the approach from a mentor figure. And I know I answered this thread through the lens of one of my characters, but I felt it necessary to explain.

 

Because these are also my own thoughts;

 

Mages are only dangerous if we make them dangerous, isolation, and fear rhetoric only makes them more and more dangerous because they lack the support and encouragement for what or who they are

[Toasted Llama]

FWIW - I've noticed a shift in the portrayal over the course of the 3 games.

In DAO, things were fairly balanced imho. We have Wynne who thinks well of the circle and dedicated apostate Morrigan. We see Knight-Commander Greagoir patiently awaiting the arrival of the official authorization for annulment, but willing to give the Warden an opportunity to resolve the situation without annuling the circle. We see the damage an untrained mage can do in Connor, and Wynne released to assist the Warden. In DAA, we see Wynne and Iona both out of the circle (apparently with permission), whereas Anders had escaped, thus becoming an apostate. I can't say that I ever completely understood the rules, since they weren't always applied evenly to individuals, let alone different circles. In any case, we also have Alistair, a general all-around nice guy and former templar trainee.

Then comes DA2, where the PC we play comes from an apostate family and goes to a city with an extreme Knight-Commander and some mighty abusive templars. The harder Meredith squeezed, the harder the mages pushed back, and we eventually arrived at a point where she ordered an anullment in response to the actions of an apostate.

In DAI, the templars are led by a demon, loads of red lyrium, and actively slaughtering anyone who remotely looks like they might be willing to help a rebel mage whereas the rebel mages 1) didn't *all* want to rebel, and 2) are so desperate as to have gotten involved in a deal with Alexius, poor things.

So I think things have shifted to a point where it's a lot easier to support the abolishment of those evil, wretched prisons known as mage circles. Ahem.

Thematically, I can see abuse of power (as previously mentioned), but I've always seen the whole mage-templar thing as more along the lines of freedom versus security (mundanes enjoy greater security when mage freedom is restricted). The freedom versus security dichotomy fits with tightening TSB travel regulations, the Patriot Act, gun control regulations, etc. - and has apparently been considered for quite awhile, as suggested by this quote attributed to Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

One thing I found particularly interesting in DAI is Cassandra's description of Seeker powers. They can actually kill with their thoughts, no lyrium or blood required? Wow. That's a whole new twist.

 

^^ This. This is what I've been noticing, you've put it to words better than I could.

 

And this:

 

It's also true of young mage children. Do you remember the story Wynne tells the Warden about her youth? IIRC, a boy made her mad and she set his hair on fire. It wasn't something she did on purpose; she was angry and it just happened. Young Harry Potter did similar things until he went to Hogwart's and received some training.

Regardless of what ultimately happens to the circles, young mages need to be identified so their skills can be properly trained.

 

Is why that shift is dangerous, assuming that, if mages don't get any education or training, more mages might start having accidents and these accidents might get worse.

[Toasted Llama]

Personally I just think the whole infrastructure needs to be uprooted. Fintan, my recent Inquisitor and tbh my favorite out of all them, believes Mages should be free, but with consequences like everyone else. No Circles, No Chantries, and No Templars. But not entirely free either, Mages need to be free and accountable, they needed to be educated as Vivienne put it 

 

"the danger to a mage is a lack of knowledge"

 

Mages need to be taught responsibility, they need to be taught the actions of their consequences, without fear, without the Chantry saying they'll turn into abominations. But the kind of responsibility that comes with being a mage.

 

As he is a ward to one of my Inquisitors, see in a real Inquisition you have the Inquisitor, Grand Inquisitor, etc. He comes at the approach from a mentor figure. And I know I answered this thread through the lens of one of my characters, but I felt it necessary to explain.

 

Because these are also my own thoughts;

 

Mages are only dangerous if we make them dangerous, isolation, and fear rhetoric only makes them more and more dangerous because they lack the support and encouragement for what or who they are

 

I wouldn't say drop Templars all-together, chantry and circles? Maybe, but if there are no circles and mages are free to live their lives as they wish, that also means that, just like regular folks, there will be criminals among them. Templars could be some sort of magic-specific law enforcement ruled by the government of the country - not the Chantry.

 

Other than that I'd say it's possible to keep the Circles but after big reforms; lower the restrictions and make attendance voluntarily, as well as ruled by mages themselves, seperate from the Chantry and seperate from the government.

[Dabrikishaw]

Did players suddenly lose the ability to support the Templars?

[TheAtomicSurvivor]

I wouldn't say drop Templars all-together, chantry and circles? Maybe, but if there are no circles and mages are free to live their lives as they wish, that also means that, just like regular folks, there will be criminals among them. Templars could be some sort of magic-specific law enforcement ruled by the government of the country - not the Chantry.

 

Other than that I'd say it's possible to keep the Circles but after big reforms; lower the restrictions and make attendance voluntarily, as well as ruled by mages themselves, seperate from the Chantry and seperate from the government.

 

I agree with this notion and that's what I was trying to communicate.

[Catilina]

Did players suddenly lose the ability to support the Templars?

To help them quit lyrium? Of course I glad to support them! 

[Arshei]

What a joy to know that the nobles also couldn't see their families again! (The prisons have a visit time and the prisoners can send letters, it does not justify the detention of innocent people)

 

By the way Karl. What justify his tranquility?

 

He tried to escape.

 

Oh, poor me, it seems I have very powerful powers, oh but who cares about greater good, better be selfish and made deals with demons, so I can destroy the world, not intentionally, since "I am the victim".

I told you before, Connor is the prove of how circles are necessary, he made a deal with a demon just because he didn't wanted his father to die, and because of that deal a lot of people died.

[Catilina]

He tried to escape.

 

Oh, poor me, it seems I have very powerful powers, oh but who cares about greater good, better be selfish and made deals with demons, so I can destroy the world, not intentionally, since "I am the victim".

I told you before, Connor is the prove of how circles are necessary, he made a deal with a demon just because he didn't wanted his father to die, and because of that deal a lot of people died.

And that's it! For an attempted escape they kill his soul! This is sick (and everyone's, who thinks that this is correct)!  

 

Otherwise, the tranquility officially the final solution, not a punishment for an attempted escape (or for a love letter  – Maddox).

[thesuperdarkone2]

He tried to escape.

Oh, poor me, it seems I have very powerful powers, oh but who cares about greater good, better be selfish and made deals with demons, so I can destroy the world, not intentionally, since "I am the victim".
I told you before, Connor is the prove of how circles are necessary, he made a deal with a demon just because he didn't wanted his father to die, and because of that deal a lot of people died.

Do you also think people should be made tranquil for passing love letters?

[Catilina]

Do you also think people should be made tranquil for passing love letters?

Of course! Mages and love? Disgusting! Intolerable! 

[Arshei]

And that's it! For an attempted escape they kill his soul! This is sick (and everyone's, who thinks that this is correct)!  

 

Otherwise, the tranquility officially the final solution, not a punishment for an attempted escape (or for a love letter  – Maddox).

Rules aren't meant to be broken, if you do so, pay the consequences.

Why tranquility is wrong? is slavery, but the slaves don't mind, they don't even care.

 

Do you also think people should be made tranquil for passing love letters?

 

Only if they are too corny

[Catilina]

Rules aren't meant to be broken, if you do so, pay the consequences.

Why tranquility is wrong? is slavery, but the slaves don't mind, they don't even care.

Tranquility is not slavery (lyrium addiction is slavery), tranquility is much worse than slavery. 

(But I guess you're kidding/trolling. You can not be serious.)

[Arshei]

Tranquility is not slavery (lyrium addiction is slavery), tranquility is much worse than slavery. 

(But I guess you're kidding/trolling. You can not be serious.)

 

Why is worse than slavery?, they don't care, and is an option for any dangerous mage.

Better safe than sorry.

 

Did you knew that in the past the children born misshapen were killed? well, be thankful that doesn't happen to mages.

[Catilina]

Why is worse than slavery?, they don't care, and is an option for any dangerous mage.

Better safe than sorry.

 

Did you knew that in the past the children born misshapen were killed? well, be thankful that doesn't happen to mages.

Yes, you are kidding. I got it! Good joke!

[Arshei]

Yes, you are kidding. I got it! Good joke!

 

You are so nice. not good, just nice. A shame some people mistake being naive with being good.

[thesuperdarkone2]

You are so nice. not good, just nice. A shame some people mistake being naive with being good.

So why don't we lobotomize all prisoners in jail. No killing them and no having to worry they'll hurt people.

[Catilina]

You are so nice. not good, just nice. A shame some people mistake being naive with being good.

They don't often say to me that I am nice!

You flatter me!

[Arshei]

They don't often say to me that I am nice!

You flatter me!

 

I'm not flattering you, this always happens, nobody ever takes my meaning.

[Catilina]

I'm not flattering you, this always happens, nobody ever takes my meaning.

Perhaps because there is not?

[Arshei]

Perhaps because there is not?

 

I'm thinking less flattering things now.

[Catilina]

Yes, I also love Cassandra...

Spoiler

[Godot]

I just hope the next games will show more the "greys" of both of mages and templars.

[Pasquale1234]

I never seen logical Wynne's position. Probably the Circle broke her. She spent too long time there, her child their taken away from her.
On the other hand: each person is different to tolerate captivity. Someone able to accept the other does not. Same way with the injustice. I know this rage.

They don't all view it as captivity. Some mages actually like the circles, and some mages are given a fair bit of freedom to pursue other interests - like Wynne en route to a meeting in DAA, and Iona out in the forest pursuing her horticulture hobby. Both were circle mages, out and about with permission, not apostates.
 

I wouldn't say drop Templars all-together, chantry and circles? Maybe, but if there are no circles and mages are free to live their lives as they wish, that also means that, just like regular folks, there will be criminals among them. Templars could be some sort of magic-specific law enforcement ruled by the government of the country - not the Chantry.

Other than that I'd say it's possible to keep the Circles but after big reforms; lower the restrictions and make attendance voluntarily, as well as ruled by mages themselves, seperate from the Chantry and seperate from the government.

Well - I think I might support the notion of dropping templars, because so many of them end up lyrium addicts. The function they perform could perhaps be shifted to mages with dispel magic, mana clash, etc. skills. If mages aren't going to be confined to circles, you'd probably want some of these magic-fighting mages in the ranks of your local law enforcement organizations - and these mages would be provided with a supply of lyrium as needed.

I'd require newly identified mages to attend a circle (as a boarding school) until they could pass a skills test demonstrating they have enough control to avoid magical accidents that may harm persons or property (including themselves). Once they'd passed the tests, they would be allowed to go, or stay for more advanced training. They'd be allowed to exchange letters and have visitors while there.

I'd create an independent Seeker order, perhaps similar to the Grey Wardens as the last line of defense against mage criminals / magical corruption, etc. They might maintain phylacteries, just in case. They might also be the authority responsible to manage the lyrium trade.

I'd keep blood magic or training in blood magic completely illegal, and restrict lyrium to those mages working in law enforcement.

I might also conscript these free mages to local militias to be available to deal with demon / abomination problems on a local level as they arise. The price of freedom and all that.

Shrug.

[Pasquale1234]

Did players suddenly lose the ability to support the Templars?

No, but over the course of the franchise, the way things have been portrayed in-game has made it more and more difficult to support circles and templars.

[Catilina]

They don't all view it as captivity. Some mages actually like the circles, and some mages are given a fair bit of freedom to pursue other interests - like Wynne en route to a meeting in DAA, and Iona out in the forest pursuing her horticulture hobby. Both were circle mages, out and about with permission, not apostates.
 

If you only with permit may leave the place, you are prisoner (or little child). This is not question.