445 réponses à ce sujet

[Almila_Lavellan]

Yeah, because Templars NEVER abuse their power, NEVER rape mages (doesn't matter if they're Tranquil or not) or NEVER Tranquilize mages just because they sent letters. They're a good bunch. Come on people, they are misunderstood... They are really oppressed by mages with their constant fight for freedom...

[Arshei]

Yeah, because Templars NEVER abuse their power, NEVER rape mages (doesn't matter if they're Tranquil or not) or NEVER Tranquilize mages just because they sent letters. They're a good bunch. Come on people, they are misunderstood... They are really oppressed by mages with their constant fight for freedom...

 

And mages are crazy power hungry psychos that can rise an army of undead, control the mind of kings, clerics, etc to do as they will or be stupid like Connor and make deals with demons, and what happens after that?, hundred of real innocent people die. There are stupid templars as there are cunning mages, that's why Vivienne and Morrigan managed to be free without being whiny.

[Pasquale1234]

People will not fear if they take it as normal, it is normal thing to see.

People will lose their fear when they start seeing more kids running around with their hair on fire. Got'cha.
 

All the accidents happen is because of provocation, and why there are provocations?

Because people are emotional, because people don't always agree, because people don't always get their way, because some people are trolls, tricksters, bullies, etc.

I understand that some people are poked more than others due to prejudices and whatnot, but you're never going to get rid of all of the trolls and bullies out there. People will always get into fights over one thing or another. Children will fight over toys.

Just as people need to learn to use knives and forks without poking themselves (or other people) in the eyes, and warriors need to learn safe handling of swords and arrows, mages need to learn to wield magic safely.
 

It doesn't matter what the Chantry doctrine is, but what matter is religious authority and peoples interpretation. That quote is as innocent as it sound, and it is correct, but what happen is t being interpret as "The Chantry have a right to take away your Mage children, locked them up in prison, and lobotomized them when needed"

I always thought that line from the Chant sounds lovely, particularly because the word "serve" implies that magic is a positive, useful thing.

You do have a point, though, with the way the circles have been handled.

As for tranquility - I have mixed feelings. It cuts them off the fade so they no longer dream, which is the natural state for a dwarf. To equate it to a lobotomy is pretty darned insulting to dwarves. It is a bit strange in the way it's been portrayed in the games - tranquils usually speak without any emotion, while dwarves are very emotional.

In any case, I do think tranquility should be an option to control mages who are exceptionally dangerous sociopaths, or those who request it for their own personal reasons.
 

The problem is, Chantry propaganda is not about to make Mages beneficial to the society, but to incite fear for control...yes it is nice to see Mages open up clinic, or serving as town security, or serve in the military, or do whatever, fully utilizing their skills in magic for good (like in TES universe). But Chantry policy is not about that...

This whole conflict around mages is one of the things that I think makes Thedas an interesting place.

[Pasquale1234]

...Did you just not play Dragon Age ][? Did you just skip all of Inquisition?

https://forum.biowar...3#entry20416489

[Catilina]

As for tranquility - I have mixed feelings. It cuts them off the fade so they no longer dream, which is the natural state for a dwarf. To equate it to a lobotomy is pretty darned insulting to dwarves. It is a bit strange in the way it's been portrayed in the games - tranquils usually speak without any emotion, while dwarves are very emotional.

They not to become dwarfs. They become to puppets, without emotions, feelings and desires.

They lose not only their magic: lose everything.

 

Karl (7:41)

[Almila_Lavellan]

And mages are crazy power hungry psychos that can rise an army of undead, control the mind of kings, clerics, etc to do as they will or be stupid like Connor and make deals with demons, and what happens after that?, hundred of real innocent people die. There are stupid templars as there are cunning mages, that's why Vivienne and Morrigan managed to be free without being whiny.

 

Just where does it say that mages constantly controlled minds of kings and clerics? Connor was a child, not an adult. He had good intentions as he said himself that he was trying to save his father. Hell, he wasn't even a blood mage. He didn't know how to control his powers because of the fear Chantry created at first. They started it by calling magic a curse even though it was obvious that magic exists naturally. You point out he got possessed because he was a mage but you forget the fact that every living being can be possessed. Even templars can be possessed. It's ridiculous you say Vivienne "managed" to be free because she didn't really make much effort. She seduced some noble and had a life of privilege which proves my point that nobles get different treatment. She wasn't confined to a cell because she had a noble lover. She is a real hypocrite.

[Pasquale1234]

They not to become dwarfs. They become to puppets, without emotions, feelings and desires.

It would be nice if you'd quit making up your own terminology for things, because it's misleading. The tranquil are not puppets.

The Tranquil are stripped of their capacity to form anything other than a logical opinion.[8] However, they neither lose their memory[4] nor become automatons: they possess free will. They do not wish to die[8] (unless it's for a cause they believe in[9]) and are no more susceptible to suggestion than they were previously. They are more agreeable and would not normally oppose an authority figure,[4] because they do not possess the desire to object,[10] but if the Tranquil see a logical reason not to follow an order, they do so.[8] Tranquil can't take offense and know no modesty.[7]

[Arshei]

Just where does it say that mages constantly controlled minds of kings and clerics? Connor was a child, not an adult. He had good intentions as he said himself that he was trying to save his father. Hell, he wasn't even a blood mage. He didn't know how to control his powers because of the fear Chantry created at first. They started it by calling magic a curse even though it was obvious that magic exists naturally. You point out he got possessed because he was a mage but you forget the fact that every living being can be possessed. Even templars can be possessed. It's ridiculous you say Vivienne "managed" to be free because she didn't really make much effort. She seduced some noble and had a life of privilige which proves my point that nobles get different treatment. She wasn't confined to a cell because she had a noble lover. She is a real hypocrite.

 

What Vivienne did, is what every mage should do, the option is there, if they can't to that is their problem, Wynne managed to get out of the circle a lot of times without seducing nobles.

 

And who cares if Connor is a child? he is still a mage who made a deal with a demon because he didn't wanted to see his father die, saving one life caused the death of hundreds.

And it is very different getting because a demon takes your body than actually letting it in, like Connor, Anders, etc did.

[Catilina]

It would be nice if you'd quit making up your own terminology for things, because it's misleading. The tranquil are not puppets.

The Tranquil are stripped of their capacity to form anything other than a logical opinion.[8] However, they neither lose their memory[4] nor become automatons: they possess free will. They do not wish to die[8] (unless it's for a cause they believe in[9]) and are no more susceptible to suggestion than they were previously. They are more agreeable and would not normally oppose an authority figure,[4] because they do not possess the desire to object,[10] but if the Tranquil see a logical reason not to follow an order, they do so.[8] Tranquil can't take offense and know no modesty.[7]

Really, people will be wonderful from the tranquility! Why does not everyone tranquil? Meredith would be so kind ...

(Again: Karl, 7:41 He doesn't seem happy.)

[Pasquale1234]

Really, people will be wonderful from the tranquility! Why does not everyone tranquil? Meredith would be so kind ...

 

(Again: Karl, 7:41)

 

Are comments like that supposed to somehow contribute to meaningful dialogue?
 

[Catilina]

Are comments like that supposed to somehow contribute to meaningful dialogue?
 

What I said was no more nonsense or less constructive than that the tranquils same as dwarves. 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I believe that mages are not being possessed and turned into abominations because there is the Breach and other smaller rifts. Once they are all closed up, things will somewhat return to the status quo.

 

Recall that Solas mentions that spirits wish to join the living world and a demon is that wish gone wrong ? It is the nature of spirits to want to experience the material world. Prior to the Breach, they can cross over where the Veil is weak or torn up or by possessing a creature, be it a tree or an animal or a corpse or a mage. A mage is the most attractive choice for a spirit because of their capacity to wield magic but if they are not around, they will possess or like the Envy Demon, imitate others or just exist on their own.

[Almila_Lavellan]

What Vivienne did, is what every mage should do, the option is there, if they can't to that is their problem, Wynne managed to get out of the circle a lot of times without seducing nobles.

 

And who cares if Connor is a child? he is still a mage who made a deal with a demon because he didn't wanted to see his father die, saving one life caused the death of hundreds.

And it is very different getting because a demon takes your body than actually letting it in, like Connor, Anders, etc did.

 

Wow, you mean EVERY single mage should throw themselves at some noble. It's really abominable. Sorry, but not every mage is a power maniac who wants to be divine or control everything. It's very immoral to use someone to reach a goal. Wynne is a senior enchanter, and she was in the Circle of Ferelden. Ferelden and Kirkwall circles aren't same. Don't forget she says she will assist a Grey Warden. She doesn't say she will loiter around.

 

So when someone is a mage it doesn't matter if they are some misled/uneducated children. Are you one of those people who holds responsible a whole race/religion because of one person's deeds? All these people died because of Chantry propaganda. They leashed mages with all those superstitious things they spout. Connor's mother Isolde is a pious woman, and she was frightened after realizing Connor had magic. Also Connor really didn't know much about dangers. He wanted to help. He didn't intentionally get possessed. Is your only example a child who is actually a victim of Chantry propaganda, or are you going to give an example in which a mage wasn't oppressed by Chantry and turned into an abomination just for lulz?

[Qis]

People will lose their fear when they start seeing more kids running around with their hair on fire. Got'cha.

 

Yes, as seeing any kids running around with firecrackers or matches or lighters and burning stuff with it...

 

Because people are emotional, because people don't always agree, because people don't always get their way, because some people are trolls, tricksters, bullies, etc.

I understand that some people are poked more than others due to prejudices and whatnot, but you're never going to get rid of all of the trolls and bullies out there. People will always get into fights over one thing or another. Children will fight over toys.

Just as people need to learn to use knives and forks without poking themselves (or other people) in the eyes, and warriors need to learn safe handling of swords and arrows, mages need to learn to wield magic safely.

 

Emotional peoples, trolls, tricksters, bullies are not the problem...but fear mongering policies is the problem. We will not have a perfect society ever, that is true, but add petrol to the fire is not a good policy.

 

What we need is education, to make people understand things, understand differences, respect and respond in positive way. Not preaching fear and hatred, not justifying bad policies by playing with sentiments, not playing politic with those justifications.

 

Accidents happen everywhere, accidents don't make something banned in society, isn't it? If accidents counts as justification, then we have to ban everything because everything can lead to accidents

 

 

As for tranquility - I have mixed feelings. It cuts them off the fade so they no longer dream, which is the natural state for a dwarf. To equate it to a lobotomy is pretty darned insulting to dwarves. It is a bit strange in the way it's been portrayed in the games - tranquils usually speak without any emotion, while dwarves are very emotional.

In any case, I do think tranquility should be an option to control mages who are exceptionally dangerous sociopaths, or those who request it for their own personal reasons.

 

I have no argument against Tranquility as punishment to evil Mages, but it have been abused to punish all Mages who disagree with Chantry policy, who being lebelled as apostate, who making mistakes, who being considered as weak, who disobey rules...it also given as option for Mages who being mocked to fear their own natural ability making they fear their own self...

 

 

This whole conflict around mages is one of the things that I think makes Thedas an interesting place.

 

It is a tiresome conflict, because the solutions are there, it only based on sentiment and prejudice, nothing other than that. All the excuses are to justify the sentiment and prejudice.

 

In other universe such as TES, evil Mages are evil Mages, good Mages are good Mages, everyone can use magic, there are people who dislike magic like Nords, but they are not extreme to the point of bigotry, everyone just accept it is a magical world, so what is it want to be huss and fuss about it? Daedras can come in anytime twisting peoples mind doing bad stuff, and there are literally devil worshipers everywhere...that's just the way the world is...

[Catilina]

I believe that mages are not being possessed and turned into abominations because there is the Breach and other smaller rifts. Once they are all closed up, things will somewhat return to the status quo.

 

Recall that Solas mentions that spirits wish to join the living world and a demon is that wish gone wrong ? It is the nature of spirits to want to experience the material world. Prior to the Breach, they can cross over where the Veil is weak or torn up or by possessing a creature, be it a tree or an animal or a corpse or a mage. A mage is the most attractive choice for a spirit because of their capacity to wield magic but if they are not around, they will possess or like the Envy Demon, imitate others or just exist on their own.

Its true.

I remember a demon said same thing to the Warden. I do not remember which, it may be not just one. (Perhaps in the Warden Keep dlc, Sophia Driden's demon offered something, if the warden would freed him to allow to experience the world – my Wardens always killed him)

[Catilina]

I have no argument against Tranquility as punishment to evil Mages, but it have been abused to punish all Mages who disagree with Chantry policy, who being lebelled as apostate, who making mistakes, who being considered as weak, who disobey rules...it also given as option for Mages who being mocked to fear their own natural ability making they fear their own self...

To be honest, my Pro-mage Karl Trevelyan judged Lord Livius Erimond to Tranquility, because he was too arrogant to be dangerous.  I do not think, he deserved better ...

[thesuperdarkone2]

People should remember that WOT says the chantry's most important doctrine is that magic is an inherently evil force.

That alone should explain a lot

[Bayonet Hipshot]

To be honest, my Pro-mage Karl Trevelyan judged Lord Livius Erimond to Tranquility, because he was too arrogant to be dangerous.  I do not think, he deserved better ...

 

I killed Erimond. Recall that Tranquility can be reversed, often with unpredictable effects. The last thing my Inquisitor wanted was to have a crazier Erimond with a deep grudge around. The best way to deal with fanatical extremists and terrorists like Erimond is to kill him.

 

The only mage that I put to Tranquility is Erasthenes and I do that because we need him alive for questioning but my Inquisitor will not condone torture.

 

I gave Alexius over to the Rebel Mages since his time magic will not work properly when the Breach has been sealed and having him make good on his initial promise of helping the Rebel Mages seems just.

 

As for Servis, I recruit him as an agent. Someone who can smuggle things so well should not be wasted on court diplomacy or prison.

[Catilina]

I killed Erimond. Recall that Tranquility can be reversed, often with unpredictable effects. The last thing my Inquisitor wanted was to have a crazier Erimond with a deep grudge around. The best way to deal with fanatical extremists and terrorists like Erimond is to kill him.

 

[...]

It is true (but only later do you know that are reversible), however, he was frightened from the tranquilising much better. Hes face was priceless! I just could not miss... Human weakness, I know. My Lavellan executed him.

[Arshei]

People should remember that WOT says the chantry's most important doctrine is that magic is an inherently evil force.

That alone should explain a lot

 

The chantry doesn't says that, the chantry says that magic is dangerous and must be used to serve men. The only magic that they consider evil is blood magic, because a lot of foolish mages can make a deal with a demon, and then what happens is what happened to Redcliff in DA:O.

[German Soldier]

Is your only example a child who is actually a victim of Chantry propaganda, or are you going to give an example in which a mage wasn't oppressed by Chantry and turned into an abomination just for lulz?

Magic was and still is the cause of immense disasters in Thedas.
The Blights,The Slavery of the Empire,The Slavery of the Evanuris,The veil,The Breach,Corypheus and the others priests,their old gods,blood mages,Demons like the nightmare magical tools that can destroy the world.
Basically without magic and mages the world of DA would be a better place.

[Dabrikishaw]

https://forum.biowar...3#entry20416489

So all the evil mages in both games just don't exist anymore? The power hungry bloodmages like Grace, Tarohne, and Quentin make the Templars look bad? And the Venatori are somehow an argument against the Circle and Templars existing?

 

This entire idea of an imbalanced portrayal is super disingenuous to the reality in the games, and I fail to understand how it proves you right.

[Qis]

Magic was and still is the cause of immense disasters in Thedas.
The Blights,The Slavery of the Empire,The Slavery of the Evanuris,The veil,The Breach,Corypheus and the others priests,their old gods,blood mages,Demons like the nightmare magical tools that can destroy the world.
Basically without magic and mages the world of DA would be a better place.

 

That will never be, because Mages are born naturally...they have "midichlorians" and some are off the chart...

[thesuperdarkone2]

The chantry doesn't says that, the chantry says that magic is dangerous and must be used to serve men. The only magic that they consider evil is blood magic, because a lot of foolish mages can make a deal with a demon, and then what happens is what happened to Redcliff in DA:O.

Yes. It. Does

Read WOT if you don't believe me

[thesuperdarkone2]

So all the evil mages in both games just don't exist anymore? The power hungry bloodmages like Grace, Tarohne, and Quentin make the Templars look bad? And the Venatori are somehow an argument against the Circle and Templars existing?

This entire idea of an imbalanced portrayal is super disingenuous to the reality in the games, and I fail to understand how it proves you right.

Imagine someone who knows nothing about Templars or mages and plays Inquisition. Their introduction to the Templars is essentially a glorified go to hell while the Mage introduction is the leader risking herself to meet you and politely invites you to Redcliffe.