445 réponses à ce sujet

[Almila_Lavellan]

No, neither does have magic.Mages have and they are still a menace, personality isn't a necessary factor here.As i said that maker had a reason doesn't equatate to something being good or positive thing, as i said blights and darkspawn are maker creation and yet they are percived as a bad thing.According to chantry blight was created by the maker to punish magisters (whether it is true or not irrelevant, it is still something that chantry belives in).

 

So? Andraste lived after first blight and long after Arlathan fall.Irrevelant as i said even if it did existed before it was contained in black city untril magisters unleashed it. 

 

I said a creator would have reasons to do something, that doesn't automatically mean this thing is good/positive. As you said yourself, that's what Chantry insists on believing. It's revealed that Veil wasn't created by their Maker which if it was, it'd be a natural thing.

[Catilina]

[...] Hardly not even remote same level of threat.

(There is no exist more dangerous thing than the herd of idiots with a charismatic idiot leader...)

[TheKomandorShepard]

I said a creator would have reasons to do something, that doesn't automatically mean this thing is good/positive. As you said yourself, that's what Chantry insists on believing. It's revealed that Veil wasn't created by their Maker which if it was, it'd be a natural thing.

What is irrelevant, even if Maker had his reasons it is still a bad thing. Plus chantry cleary shows that maker designs are hardly perfect, thus his disappointment with spirits and the fade.Plus, it doesn't matter here we are discussing chantry view that belives that maker created this world.

 

 

(There is no exist more dangerous thing than the herd of idiots with a charismatic idiot leader...)

Really? Blights? Abomnations? Top that with non-mage idiot.

[Qis]

Tornadoes are natural but I imagine you wouldn't walk into one.
 

 

Tornado have it's purpose, it is people who live in their pathway......

[Almila_Lavellan]

This is false equivalence, it is like comparing a knife to a nuclear bomb on basis that both are dangerous ignoring factor of how dangerous they are.Those templars with their big swords are nowhere near as dangerous as those mages with their blights, powers and demons.Plus, you live in fantasy world where just because something is natural it is good, what i have proven to be false.

 

What I mean that Chantry can be easily corrupted by mankind, and it's already corrupted with all these fear of magic they spread. A religion shoudn't divide society into pieces. If they tried to educate people and help them instead of spreading the fear, maybe people wouldn't have feared mages. Uneducated people are what cause mages to turn into abominations. Fear is the worst weapon that is used everywhere.

[Pasquale1234]

All these people died because of Chantry propaganda.

What propaganda is that?
 

Connor's mother Isolde is a pious woman, and she was frightened after realizing Connor had magic.

Isolde is a deceitful lawbreaker who purposely withheld Connor's status from his father and hired an apostate blood mage (who poisoned her husband) instead of sending Connor to the circle for proper training.

[Almila_Lavellan]

What is irrelevant, even if Maker had his reasons it is still a bad thing. Plus chantry cleary shows that maker designs are hardly perfect, thus his disappointment with spirits and the fade.Plus, it doesn't matter here we are discussing chantry view that belives that maker created this world.

 

 

Really? Blights? Abomnations? Top that with non-mage idiot.

 

So you believe the Maker story? I imagine a creator would be perfect, and wouldn't make mistakes since he knows everything but obviously Chantry believe their god is like a mortal who makes a mistake at every turn. That says something about their belief system.

[TheKomandorShepard]

What I mean that Chantry can be easily corrupted by mankind, and it's already corrupted with all these fear of magic they spread. A religion shoudn't divide society into pieces. If they tried to educate people and help them instead of spreading the fear, maybe people wouldn't have feared mages. Uneducated people are what cause mages to turn into abominations. Fear is the worst weapon that is used everywhere.

Same is true for any type of organisation what is redundant type of information, plus just because you don't like what chantry is saying doesn't equate corruption, in fact all chantry is doing here is stating mere facts concerning mages.Chantry is helping plenty of people either by charities or protecting people from mages and making sure mages won't hurt people.Fear of mages is justified, needless to say what mages did even before creation of the chantry is sufficient reason to make any sane person to fear them.

 

Also you are spearding false information, more often than not reason for mage turning into an abomnation are their own failings.

 

 

So you believe the Maker story? I imagine a creator would be perfect, and wouldn't make mistakes since he knows everything but obviously Chantry believe their god is like a mortal who makes a mistake at every turn. That says something about their belief system.

I don't belive in it a lot of chantry claims turned to be false, however we are discussing what chantry does belives in not me.They don't belive their god is a mortal (Maker is a diety creator) but they definitely show that his judgement isn't necessarily perfect.

[Catilina]

What propaganda is that?
 

Isolde is a deceitful lawbreaker who purposely withheld Connor's status from his father and hired an apostate blood mage (who poisoned her husband) instead of sending Connor to the circle for proper training.

These filthy lawbreakers! Disgusting!

[Almila_Lavellan]

What propaganda is that?
 

Isolde is a deceitful lawbreaker who purposely withheld Connor's status from his father and hired an apostate blood mage (who poisoned her husband) instead of sending Connor to the circle for proper training.

 

Taking children from their families and sending them to the other corner of the world -like Anders- shouldn't be a law in the first place. Why didn't they let mages study in schools and see their families? It's really not different from the slavery. Mages are used as weapons in battles, and then thrown into circles. Do you think it's justified? Those people are taken away from their families, of course they aren't sane. That's what happens when you are locked in a tower, and scrutinized everytime.

[Catilina]

What propaganda is that?
 

Isolde is a deceitful lawbreaker who purposely withheld Connor's status from his father and hired an apostate blood mage (who poisoned her husband) instead of sending Connor to the circle for proper training.

Okay, seriously: the wrong laws are dangerous.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Taking children from their families and sending them to the other corner of the world -like Anders- shouldn't be a law in the first place. Why didn't they let mages study in schools and see their families? It's really not different from the slavery. Mages are used as weapons in battles, and then thrown into circles. Do you think it's justified? Those people are taken away from their family, of course they aren't sane. That's what happens when you are locked in a tower, and scrutinized everytime.

What? You know that this law exists for a good reason? Mages are incredibly dangerous, now imagine if one of them turned into an abomnation turned rest of mages into an abomnation and then murdered entire village/city turning dead into living corpses. Pretty much Uldred merged with Connor situation, just add more abomnations to the party.Oh, add also a lot of abuse of their powers on mages side.

 

Yes, it is justified.It is necessary to create stable and safe society security measure.

[Almila_Lavellan]

Same is true for any type of organisation what is redundant type of information, plus just because you don't like what chantry is saying doesn't equate corruption, in fact all chantry is doing here is stating mere facts concerning mages.Chantry is helping plenty of people either by charities or protecting people from mages and making sure mages won't hurt people.Fear of mages is justified, needless to say what mages did even before creation of the chantry is sufficient reason to make any sane person to fear them.

 

Also you are spearding false information, more often than not reason for mage turning into an abomnation are their own failings.

 

 

I don't belive in it a lot of chantry claims turned to be false, however we are discussing what chantry does belives in not me.They don't belive their god is a mortal (Maker is a diety creator) but they definitely show that his judgement isn't necessarily perfect.

 

Yeah, Chantry was very good at helping people in Darktown of Kirkwall. And there's this mage woman Evelina who willingly went to Circle and wanted help for children but guess what? Chantry didn't care and locked her away. 

[Qis]

Firecrackers, matches, lighters are objects that children need to have access to and learn how to use, and they can be taken away from them.

 

You cannot watch children 24/7, there are moments where children grab matches and play with them and boom

 

 

Education can certainly help, but there's always going to be a certain amount of fear and intolerance. BTW, the kind of education I think you're espousing here can also be construed as a form of preaching.

 

True, religion set morality in ancient times and religion itself is education, but what the Chantry educate other than "fear mage", "mages are beacon of demons", "mages cannot control themselves", "if let mages free, they will create Tevinter Imperium 2.0", "mages are time bomb, you never know when they become abomination and kill you", ect ect ect

 

 

Accidents have, in fact, led to bans of some things and loads of regulations in other areas. Fireworks were illegal in my city for many years. Many kinds of equipment including automobiles have loads of safety devices built into them, and are required by law.

 

But automobiles never been propagated as "vehicle of death" despite accident involve loss of life are millions around the world, isn't it? Despite atomic bomb kill millions, countries that have them creating even more powerful bombs than the two already dropped...what i mean is, when the policy say "it's okay" then it's okay, it totally depends on the one who make policies. When they say it is okay, there are a lot of excuses to justify it...

 

 

It's become tiresome because it's been a huge focus in the storylines in the last couple of games. I liked it as a background conflict in DAO, but it was brought to the forefront in DA2, where we were repeatedly beat over our heads with it in loads of extreme abuses on both sides. And after all of that, is anything actually going to change? I guess we'll see.

 

For me it is tiresome because like i said it only based on sentiment and prejudice, it is the same with black peoples are criminals because they're black, Muslims are terrorist because Islam is religion of terror, LGBT peoples are abominations because they're weird, white people are Trump...we see all these in real life

 

When i see the same thing in the game, i quickly become tired of it, that's the reason i don't like DA2 so much. Even though it is a fantasy set up, the issue is the same, sentiment and prejudice toward certain group of peoples, it is nothing more than that. It is not even politic, not even religious, but bigotry at it's peak.

 

 

Well, TES games tend to have bigger worlds with loads of different kinds of questlines and content. You can spend hundreds of hours with a Skyrim character and never touch the main questline. You can create a character specifically to go through the Civil War on the Stormcloak side and another to go through the Civil War on the side of the Imperials. Thalmor Justicars will continue to march around with their prisoners, and you can attack them or ignore them. The choices and storylines don't generally go very deep, but they certainly are broad in scope.

DA games, otoh, present very specific main storylines and dig really deeply into the conflicts and issues they present. They created the status of mages in Thedas as part of the world-building to build in conflict that they could use to create their plotlines.

 

It's not about the game feature, quest or mechanic, but the things in it, in TES there are good and evil peoples, the issue is what they done, either what they do is good or bad, that is the issue...not "they are bad because they are *certain group of people*".

 

Example, Stormcloak vs Empire, it is political issue between the two faction, it is not "Nord are evil because they are Nords", "imperial are evil because they're Imperial", Nords and Imperial are races, Stormcloak and Empire are factions. No matter who you choose and your justification, it is not bigotry. even Thalmor is a faction among Elves, hate the Thalmor doesn't mean hate Elves as the whole, not all Elves are Thalmor.

 

Mage vs Templar in DA2 or DA in general is bigotry, because Mages can be anyone, it's not even a faction, it actually personal, a person who is a Mage vs a faction that is Templar/Chantry. It is about a religious order policy against a person who have certain quality, the sentiment and prejudice is toward the person who born with such quality. That's why it is tiresome, we see it everyday in Fox News...

 

See what i mean?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Yeah, Chantry was very good at helping people in Darktown of Kirkwall. And there's this mage woman Evelina who willingly went to Circle and wanted help for children but guess what? Chantry didn't care and locked her away. 

As far i remember chantry was helping in Kirkwall at least in lowtown, chantry was also helping refuges in Lothering and you can send this girl with casteless child to the chantry.Evelina also went to the circle if i recall for help, that circles are concerned with mages only she was locked up as she was apostate. 

[Pasquale1234]

So all the evil mages in both games just don't exist anymore? The power hungry bloodmages like Grace, Tarohne, and Quentin make the Templars look bad?

No, people like Meredith and Alrik make the templars look bad.

The templars in Ferelden's circle came across as decent sorts who were just as interested in protecting the mages as they were in protecting mundanes from magic.

By DAI, templars were using red lyrium and slaughtering anyone who remotely looked like they might help a rebel mage.
 

And the Venatori are somehow an argument against the Circle and Templars existing?

The Venatori came across like any other opportunistic antagonist group. Consider the qunari in Trespasser: the primary difference is that they used gaatlok and swords instead of magic.
 

This entire idea of an imbalanced portrayal is super disingenuous to the reality in the games, and I fail to understand how it proves you right.

There's nothing disingenuous about it. It's just one person's assessment.

[Almila_Lavellan]

What? You know that this law exists for a good reason? Mages are incredibly dangerous, now imagine if one of them turned into an abomnation turned rest of mages into an abomnation and then murdered entire village/city turning dead into living corpses. Pretty much Uldred merged with Connor situation, just add more abomnations to the party.Oh, add also a lot of abuse of their powers on mages side.

 

Yes, it is justified.It is necessary to create stable and safe society security measure.

 

Mages don't turn into abominations just easily like they did in DA 2. DA 2 tried to portray things as gray but all it did was exaggeration. In DA:O mages had to learn blood magic from a demon or a book but it turns out when they cut their wrists they can easily accept a demon's offer and turn into abomination. Seeing family would cause them to turn into abominations, you think? That's just DA 2 logic.

[Almila_Lavellan]

As far i remember chantry was helping in Kirkwall at least in lowtown, chantry was also helping refuges in Lothering and you can send this girl with casteless child to the chantry.Evelina also went to the circle if i recall for help, that circles are concerned with mages only she was locked up as she was apostate. 

 

Chantry was originally helping Darktown too but they stopped helping for some reason. Evelina went to Circle for help but also she said she was willing to stay in the Circle if it meant they'd help children but they just locked her away and didn't help children.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mages don't turn into abominations just easily like they did in DA 2. DA 2 tried to portray things as gray but all it did was exaggeration. In DA:O mages had to learn blood magic from a demon or a book but it turns out when they cut their wrists they can easily accept a demon's offer and turn into abomination. Seeing family would cause them to turn into abominations, you think? That's just DA 2 logic.

False, they end eaisly as abomnations in both games.Also blood magic is hardly necessary to end possessed, even DG said cleary that mage may be under influence of demon don't even know it.No, allowing them roam freelly and indulge in blood magic would.

 

 

Chantry was originally helping Darktown too but they stopped helping for some reason. Evelina went to Circle for help but also she said she was willing to stay in the Circle if it meant they'd help children but they just locked her away and didn't help children.

Well, even more evidence to support that chantry does help people.As i said circles don't exist for charity, it is chantry domain.Circles exist to capture mages and they did their job.

[Pasquale1234]

Taking children from their families and sending them to the other corner of the world -like Anders- shouldn't be a law in the first place. Why didn't they let mages study in schools and see their families? It's really not different from the slavery. Mages are used as weapons in battles, and then thrown into circles. Do you think it's justified? Those people are taken away from their families, of course they aren't sane. That's what happens when you are locked in a tower, and scrutinized everytime.

Regardless of how we might feel about the law, it is the law of the land of the time. As the wife of a prominent, high ranking noble, Isolde would be in a good position to start the process of change, but instead she kept her son's status from his father, and made some choices that led to a lot of death and destruction, including the poisoning of her husband.

[Aren]

 

Ever heard about natural disasters?Hardly, magic lead to creation of the blight (at least according to chantry) and countless other disasters on world/national/local scale.That maker created something doesn't equate to it being a good thing (assuming you buy whole maker thing in first place but for sake of argument i will), by your logic blight should be seen as good thing and a gift just because maker created it.

 

 

Wasn't the blight the manifestation of some dimension named the Abyss that is also related to the titans?

Magic from the fade and taint from the abyss that's what i remember,so at best some mage unleashed the blight but they did not created it.

[Almila_Lavellan]

False, they end eaisly as abomnations in both games.Also blood magic is hardly necessary to end possessed, even DG said cleary that mage may be under influence of demon don't even know it.No, allowing them roam freelly and indulge in blood magic would.

 

Game lore said in DA:O that mages had to summon a demon and learn blood magic, and they would eventually turn into abominations. DA 2 portrayed it differently. A mage doesn't need to learn blood magic, all she/he have to do is cut the wrists and a demon appears, offers something. Game lore also says that every living being can be possessed. In your logic, every living thing should be locked away so they don't get possessed.

[Barquiel]

Who wants to surrender their children to become chantry prisoners? Who wants to have their kid get taken away, afraid they will never see them again or that the templars will commit unspeakable abuses once they go there? The chantry has the lion's share of the blame in this quest.

[Aren]

 

 

Chantry consists of delusional fools. I'd like to see their faces when every one of them learned Veil wasn't created by a god.

Technically speaking Solas is a god and we are not sure if he created the whole thing from scratch or if he just reallocated a pre existing structure to serve that purpose.

[Almila_Lavellan]

Regardless of how we might feel about the law, it is the law of the land of the time. As the wife of a prominent, high ranking noble, Isolde would be in a good position to start the process of change, but instead she kept her son's status from his father, and made some choices that led to a lot of death and destruction, including the poisoning of her husband.

 

Isolde wasn't a queen, so she couldn't really change things in the kingdom. I don't like Isolde at all but she didn't want to lose her only son. What she did was foolish, true, I won't deny that BUT Chantry's spreading the fear of magic/mages is what caused all these horrible things. All people need is education, not more fear.