445 réponses à ce sujet

[TheKomandorShepard]

Wasn't the blight the manifestation of some dimension named the Abyss that is also related to the titans?

Magic from the fade and taint from the abyss that's what i remember,so at best some mage unleashed the blight but they did not created it.

Irrelevant i pointed it before, in first place aside not much of evidence to support above, they still unleashed blights upon the world.

 

 

Game lore said in DA:O that mages had to summon a demon and learn blood magic, and they would eventually turn into abominations. DA 2 portrayed it differently. A mage doesn't need to learn blood magic, all she/he have to do is cut the wrists and a demon appears, offers something. Game lore also says that every living being can be possessed. In your logic, every living thing should be locked away so they don't get possessed.

That is lack of understanding of the lore.Dao never claimed that to summoning a demon and learning a blood magic was necessary in order to be possessed.In fact it was made clear that normal mages can be possessed and they draw demons even in sleep.

 

 

Isolde wasn't a queen, so she couldn't really change things in the kingdom. I don't like Isolde at all but she didn't want to lose her only son. What she did was foolish, true, I won't deny that BUT Chantry's spreading the fear of magic/mages is what caused all these horrible things. All people need is education, not more fear.

That is pure naiviety, unless by education you mean spreading propaganda that mages are safe and denying reality education won't do anything here.

[Almila_Lavellan]

Irrelevant i pointed it before, in first place aside not much of evidence to support above, they still unleashed blights upon the world.

 

 

That is lack of understanding of the lore.Dao never claimed that to summoning a demon and learning a blood magic was necessary in order to be possessed.In fact it was made clear that normal mages can be possessed and they draw demons even in sleep.

 

 

That is pure naiviety, unless by education you mean spreading propaganda that mages are safe and denying reality education won't do anything here.

 

Everything can be possessed, even cats and trees. Lore also says a mage should be willing to be possessed, or possession doesn't really work.

 

Chantry already is spreading propaganda about magic. They should stop frightening people with magic. All they do is spreading fear. They should've told people that mages are people too, not some monster that should be locked away. They can do this and still tell people that magic is dangerous, and they should be careful.

[Pasquale1234]

You cannot watch children 24/7, there are moments where children grab matches and play with them and boom

Responsible parents usually try to keep such objects in places where their children cannot reach them.
 

True, religion set morality in ancient times and religion itself is education, but what the Chantry educate other than "fear mage", "mages are beacon of demons", "mages cannot control themselves", "if let mages free, they will create Tevinter Imperium 2.0", "mages are time bomb, you never know when they become abomination and kill you", ect ect ect

I see these allegations of chantry propaganda made time and time again, but I don't recall ever seeing it spread in-game.

Meanwhile...

What do you suppose those mundanes out in the general public think when they hear about things like Uldred's attempted coup at the Ferelden Circle, or the death and destruction wrought by Connor in Redcliffe?
 

For me it is tiresome because like i said it only based on sentiment and prejudice, it is the same with black peoples are criminals because they're black, Muslims are terrorist because Islam is religion of terror, LGBT peoples are abominations because they're weird, white people are Trump...we see all these in real life

So you've distilled the entire issue to simple prejudice toward people because they're different. I think there's quite a bit more to it than that - like issues surrounding power, abuse of power, freedom versus security, and the like.
 

When i see the same thing in the game, i quickly become tired of it, that's the reason i don't like DA2 so much.

I'm with you on that. I got really, really tired of being beaten over the head with mages this, templars that in DA2.
 

Mage vs Templar in DA2 or DA in general is bigotry, because Mages can be anyone, it's not even a faction, it actually personal, a person who is a Mage vs a faction that is Templar/Chantry. It is about a religious order policy against a person who have certain quality, the sentiment and prejudice is toward the person who born with such quality. That's why it is tiresome, we see it everyday in Fox News...
 
See what i mean?

Yes, you do have a point about it being a personal issue. Mages are viewed with suspicion and mistrust regardless of their personal moral convictions, behavior, etc.

But I still think there are more issues than just simple personal prejudice at play.

[Almila_Lavellan]

Technically speaking Solas is a god and we are not sure if he created the whole thing from scratch or if he just reallocated a pre existing structure to serve that purpose.

 

I think Solas said he created the Veil. I don't believe he is a god but I find it funny that what humans interpret as Maker's creation is actually the work of an Elven mage.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Everything can be possessed, even cats and trees. Lore also says a mage should be willing to be possessed, or possession doesn't really work.

 

Chantry already is spreading propaganda about magic. They should stop frightening people with magic. All they do is spreading fear. They should've told people that mages are people too, not some monster that should be locked away. They can do this and still tell people that magic is dangerous, and they should be careful.

Yes, difference is that demon has to cross the veil in order to possess cat or a tree. False, at least partly , i explained how it works you were more than glad to ignore it.

 

They spread propaganda, but what they are saying about mages being danger is nothing less than a fact.False, once again chantry claims that magic is a curse and gift, it seems you are less intrested in truth and more in validation even if invalid one.Your arguments are nothing more but pure appeal to emotions, in first place chantry does treat mages as people but very dangerous people. If chantry didn't threat mages as people they wouldn't live in luxurious towers.

[Qis]

Responsible parents usually try to keep such objects in places where their children cannot reach them.

 

Similarly, responsible parents will care their children who can conjure up fire by teaching them not to play with fire, isn't it?

 

 

I see these allegations of chantry propaganda made time and time again, but I don't recall ever seeing it spread in-game.

Meanwhile...

What do you suppose those mundanes out in the general public think when they hear about things like Uldred's attempted coup at the Ferelden Circle, or the death and destruction wrought by Connor in Redcliffe?

 

The Circle shouldn't be exist in the first place, both cases you mentioned happened because of the Circle system...Uldred want to be free, he want Circle having autonomy, he's a Libertarian in which a faction among Mages in the Circle who want more power in the Circle.

 

Isolde refuse to sent her son to the Circle because her son will lost title and nobility, for that reason he hired an apostate Mage who happen to be a Blood Mage having books about conjuring demon (supposedly he taken it from Circle library, this is the book that cause all the trouble) and a Loghain agent to poison her husband as a tutor.

 

Without the Circle, none of the issue happened. Uldred might become a farmer or fisherman and Conor playing chess or something with his friends

 

Look at the boatmen near the Circle, forgot his name, he's just cool...he hear a lot about the Circle, but he say "it must have something to do with magic, but the tower always have something to do with magic' and  "the Maker make them for a reason, if we don't trust The Maker, who we want to trust?"

 

 

But I still think there are more issues than just simple personal prejudice at play.

 

Well i don't see anything other than prejudices, even in DA:I....all the Chantry claims washed away, no Mages trying to create Tevinter Imperium 2.0, no Mages becomes abominations with no reason, no Mages abuse their power to topple Ferelden King or Orlesian Queen, no Mages creating an invincible army to take over the world, no Mages doing act of terror anywhere....no such thing isn't it?.

[Pasquale1234]

Isolde wasn't a queen, so she couldn't really change things in the kingdom.

No, she can't directly make law, but she is in a much better position than the average person to influence it. She is also very well-positioned to start these educational programs we keep talking about.
 

I don't like Isolde at all but she didn't want to lose her only son. What she did was foolish, true, I won't deny that

Thank you.

I would suggest that Isolde's foolishness did a great deal of damage to the cause overall. Situations like what happened at Redcliffe only increase fear of mages and magic.
 

BUT Chantry's spreading the fear of magic/mages is what caused all these horrible things. All people need is education, not more fear.

I keep asking about this alleged propaganda and fear-mongering, but have yet to receive an answer.

[Almila_Lavellan]

Yes, difference is that demon has to cross the veil in order to possess cat or a tree. False, at least partly , i explained how it works you were more than glad to ignore it.

 

They spread propaganda, but what they are saying about mages being danger is nothing less than a fact.False, once again chantry claims that magic is a curse and gift, it seems you are less intrested in truth and more in validation even if invalid one.Your arguments are nothing more but pure appeal to emotions, in first place chantry does treat mages as people but very dangerous people. If chantry didn't threat mages as people they wouldn't live in luxurious towers.

 

Demons also possessed templars in DA 2. As far as I remember, they didn't have to cross the Veil. They have also connection to the Fade which means they should be locked away too, I think. Everyone can be dangerous. We see it in our world. People don't need magical powers in order to murder people or blow up somewhere.

Chantry doesn't treat mages as people, they see them as necessary weapons to be used in battles. People have their own private lives, but mages don't have anything private.

[Qis]

Situation in Redcliffe was caused by BOOKS...Connor didn't become an abomination just because he's a Mage

 

[Almila_Lavellan]

No, she can't directly make law, but she is in a much better position than the average person to influence it. She is also very well-positioned to start these educational programs we keep talking about.
 

Thank you.

I would suggest that Isolde's foolishness did a great deal of damage to the cause overall. Situations like what happened at Redcliffe only increase fear of mages and magic.
 

I keep asking about this alleged propaganda and fear-mongering, but have yet to receive an answer.

 

Chantry keeps saying that magic is a curse.It doesn't matter if they later say it's also a gift. They like mages when they can be properly used, otherwise they don't matter, they can rot in a Circle and never see their families again for all Chantry cares. They made people distrustful of mages. They could've teach dangers of magic without dividing society and making mages an obvious target.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Demons also possessed templars in DA 2. As far as I remember, they didn't have to cross the Veil. They have also connection to the Fade which means they should be locked away too, I think. Everyone can be dangerous. We see it in our world. People don't need magical powers in order to murder people or blow up somewhere.

Chantry doesn't treat mages as people, they see them as necessary weapons to be used in battles. People have their own private lives, but mages don't have anything private.

Demons possessed templars in da 2 because mages forced demons to possess them.Demons are drawn to the mages like to a beacon in the fade.Plus i see you still cling to your false equivalence, i cleary explained that just because both things are dangerous doesn't mean they are as equally dangerous.No normal people aren't nowhere near as dangerous as mages are, how many times i will have to repeat that?

 

Once again, if chantry didn't reat mages a people they would simply throw them into dungeons, kill , tranqul or use Qunari way of dealing with mages.Instead mages live in most luxurious coditions in Thedas and gave them rights. As i said you are trying to appeal to emotions with false narrative.

 

 

Situation in Redcliffe was caused by BOOKS...Connor didn't become an abomination just because he's a Mage

LoL, that some mental gymnastics.He became an abomnation because he made deal with a demon when it conntaced him.

[Qis]

The evidence is clearly there in the game...Connor DIDN'T become an abomination just because he's a Mage and not trained, he become abomination after reading Jowan books about summoning demons to help his father and making his mother happy...

 

It is the same with a child didn't burn the house because the child is trouble, but because the child got his hands on the matches and play with it

 

Demonic books, matches...get them away from children...

[TheKomandorShepard]

The evidence is clearly there in the game...Connor DIDN'T become an abomination just because he's a Mage and not trained, he become abomination after reading Jowan books about summoning demons to help his father and making his mother happy...

 

It is the same with a child didn't burn the house because the child is trouble, but because the child got his hands on the matches ad play with it

Where he summoned demon?There is no evidence that Connor summoned demon, demon simply conntacted him after he read a book.Your point is invalid, books or not he still could attract demon anyway as any mage.

[Catilina]

The evidence is clearly there in the game...Connor DIDN'T become an abomination just because he's a Mage and not trained, he become abomination after reading Jowan books about summoning demons to help his father and making his mother happy...

 

It is the same with a child didn't burn the house because the child is trouble, but because the child got his hands on the matches and play with it

 

Demonic books, matches...get them away from children...

That was also Anders said to Merrill in a banter.

 

Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?

Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?

Merrill: Oh, no. I did.

Anders: Why would you do that?

Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.

Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!

Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

[Qis]

Where he summoned demon?There is no evidence that Connor summoned demon, demon simply conntacted him after he read a book.Your point is moot, books or not he could attract demon anyway.

 

No, the demon contacted him AFTER he read Jowan books and TRY something in those books, he admit that himself.."I shouldn't have tried, i guess." and "Then the bad lady started talking to me in my sleep.."

[Almila_Lavellan]

Demons possessed templars in da 2 because mages forced demons to possess them.Demons are drawn to the mages like to a beacon in the fade.Plus i see you still cling to your false equivalence, i cleary explained that just because both things are dangerous doesn't mean they are as equally dangerous.No normal people aren't nowhere near as dangerous as mages are, how many times i will have to repeat that?

 

Once again, if chantry didn't reat mages a people they would simply throw them into dungeons, kill , tranqul or use Qunari way of dealing with mages.Instead mages live in most luxurious coditions in Thedas and gave them rights. As i said you are trying to appeal to emotions with false narrative.

 

 

LoL, that some mental gymnastics.He became an abomnation because he made deal with a demon when it conntaced him.

 

I know that mages are more vulnerable than others. I don't say it's equal but everyone is in danger. They can still be possessed.

 

Why would they make tranquil or kill mages while they obviously see them as weapons? Mages are used in battles such as Battle at Ostagar. They can't kill or make tranquil every one of them since it'd cost them a powerful weapon.

[thesuperdarkone2]

No, she can't directly make law, but she is in a much better position than the average person to influence it. She is also very well-positioned to start these educational programs we keep talking about.


Thank you.

I would suggest that Isolde's foolishness did a great deal of damage to the cause overall. Situations like what happened at Redcliffe only increase fear of mages and magic.


I keep asking about this alleged propaganda and fear-mongering, but have yet to receive an answer.

Did you forget the part where WOT says the chantry's most important doctrine is that magic is inherently evil? That explains a. Lot

[TheKomandorShepard]

No, the demon contacted him AFTER he read Jowan books and TRY something in those books, he admit that himself.."I shouldn't have tried, i guess." and "Then the bad lady started talking to me in my dream..."

He never said he tried to summon a demon, all he said he read a book.You are doing quite a logic leaps.

 

 

I know that mages are more vulnerable than others. I don't say it's equal but everyone is in danger. They can still be possessed.

 

Why would they make tranquil or kill mages while they obviously see them as weapons? Mages are used in battles such as Battle at Ostagar. They can't kill or make tranquil every one of them since it'd cost them a powerful weapon.

Then you not making any sense whatsoever, mages are tremendously much more vulnerable, compare mages possessions and non-mages possessions in the series.Even then not a single one non-mage in series was possessed naturally only due to actions of magess.Then there is fact abomnations are more powerful than non-mage possession.Your point is invalid.

 

Because before circles were formed mages weren't allowed to use magic on anything else than igniting a fire, no reason to not to do so.Circles were formed only because chantry good will and they were much more luxurious than they needed to be.

 

 

Did you forget the part where WOT says the chantry's most important doctrine is that magic is inherently evil? That explains a. Lot

Again with false narrative.I see you love your echo-chamber.

[Pasquale1234]

Similarly, responsible parents will care their children who can conjure up fire by teaching them not to play with fire, isn't it?

Well, we've gone all the way around and have now arrived back at the point where I started: mages need to be trained to control their powers and use them safely.

I don't expect that's something a mundane can do for their kids. Mage children need to be taught by other mages. This is why Isolde hired Jowan, yes?
 

The Circle shouldn't be exist in the first place,

Mages should not be denied the opportunity to be educated in magic and congregate with others like them.
 

both cases you mentioned happened because of the Circle system...Uldred want to be free, he want Circle having autonomy, he's a Libertarian in which a faction among Mages in the Circle who want more power in the Circle.

If it wasn't Uldred or Connor, it could have been someone else somewhere else. Like Erimond at Adamant.
 

Without the Circle, none of the issue happened. Uldred might become a farmer or fisherman and Conor playing chess or something with his friends

I don't deny that the circle system as it exists has a lot of problems, and reform is needed.

But I think you are denying the fact that a mage with an agenda can do a lot more damage a lot faster than a mundane with a similar agenda.
 

Look at the boatmen near the Circle, forgot his name, he's just cool...he hear a lot about the Circle, but he say "it must have something to do with magic, but the tower always have something to do with magic' and  "the Maker make them for a reason, if we don't trust The Maker, who we want to trust?"

Do you suppose that boatman just hasn't heard the alleged propaganda, or that maybe the propaganda isn't so damaging and ubiquitous as some would claim?
 

Well i don't see anything other than prejudices, even in DA:I....all the Chantry claims washed away, no Mages trying to create Tevinter Imperium 2.0, no Mages becomes abominations with no reason, no Mages abuse their power to topple Ferelden King or Orlesian Queen, no Mages creating an invincible army to take over the world, no Mages doing act of terror anywhere....no such thing isn't it?.

Did we forget about the Venatori and Adamant?

[Almila_Lavellan]

He never said he tried to summon a demon, all he said he read a book.You are doing quite a logic leaps.

 

 

Then you not making any sense whatsoever, mages are tremendously much more vulnerable, compare mages possessions and non-mages possessions in the series.Even then not a single one non-mage in series was possessed naturally only due to actions of magess.Then there is fact abomnations are more powerful than non-mage possession.Your point is invalid.

 

Because before circles were formed mages weren't allowed to use magic on anything else than igniting a fire, no reason to not to do so.Circles were formed only because chantry good will and they were much more luxurious than they needed to be.

 

 

Again with false narrative.I see you love your echo-chamber.

 

It's funny how some people always see tyrannical organizations as fair, good, impeccable and all. Chantry steps out of line. Religion shouldn't control kingdoms or people's lives. Chantry doesn't have any good will. They just do things as they like. They are racist too, they despise every race except humans. That can't be justified. They claim their prophet Andraste got help from an elf but they wipe out his name because of wars. They don't give a damn about other religions. They're narow-minded.

[TheKomandorShepard]

It's funny how some people always see tyrannical organizations as fair, good, impeccable and all. Chantry steps out of line. Religion shouldn't control kingdoms or people's lives. Chantry doesn't have any good will. They just do things as they like. They are racist too, they despise every race except humans. That can't be justified. They claim their prophet Andraste got help from an elf but they wipe out his name because of wars. They don't give a damn about other religions. They're narow-minded.

You are once again making appeal to emotions by using false narrative (you love doing it it seems). Chantry doesn't control kingdoms, chantry has no say in matters that are unrelated to mages and religion.Plus, there is no reason for them to give a damn about other religions.Considering also it was chantry that prevented Orlais from killing elves off i think chantry was much more nice that it was required to elves.

[Catilina]

You are once again making appeal to emotions by using false narrative (you love doing it it seems). Chantry doesn't control kingdoms, chantry has no say in matters that are unrelated to mages and religion.Plus, there is no reason for them to give a damn about other religions.Considering also it was chantry that prevented Orlais from killing elves off i think chantry was much more nice that it was required to elves.

Chantry des not control the kingdoms? All of the Circle Towers in all Andrastian kingdoms controlled by the Chantry. All Templars controlled by the Chantry, and abuse citizens freely. One of the kings has no say in the life of the Tower what standing in his field, and can not send home the Templars. And don't forget: The nobles can't elect baron in Kirkwall, because of Meredith (and Elthina)! This all example proves the freedom of kingdoms.

[Almila_Lavellan]

You are once again making appeal to emotions by using false narrative (you love doing it it seems). Chantry doesn't control kingdoms, chantry has no say in matters that are unrelated to mages and religion.Plus, there is no reason for them to give a damn about other religions.Considering also it was chantry that prevented Orlais from killing elves off i think chantry was much more nice that it was required to elves.

 

Chantry doesn't control anything it seems? Chantry has a say on most things. It's not only mages or religion. You can see chantry mother praying on coronation ceremony. Divine is seen as the most powerful person in Thedas which means she can control a lot of things. I like how you justify rasicm so I won't make a comment on it. True, Chantry may not give a damn but Chantry CAN'T and SHOULDN'T try to change people's religion, it's disgusting.

[Pasquale1234]

Chantry keeps saying that magic is a curse.

When/where does it say that, and in what context, please?

The evidence is clearly there in the game...Connor DIDN'T become an abomination just because he's a Mage and not trained, he become abomination after reading Jowan books about summoning demons to help his father and making his mother happy...

Do you suppose the same thing could happen if a mundane read that book?

Did you forget the part where WOT says the chantry's most important doctrine is that magic is inherently evil? That explains a. Lot

No, I didn't forget it. I don't have it or any of the other supplementary materials, and have thus never read any of them.

I do, however, find it difficult to believe it actually says that.

[thesuperdarkone2]

When/where does it say that, and in what context, please?


Do you suppose the same thing could happen if a mundane read that book?


No, I didn't forget it. I don't have it or any of the other supplementary materials, and have thus never read any of them.

I do, however, find it difficult to believe it actually says that.

Yes, it literally says that. Other people who have read WOT can confirm it

WOT vol 1 pg 111