5836 réponses à ce sujet

[Hainkpe]

With the amount of times I get accused of censorship, being in a place where that isnt even in the realm of possibility has an appeal. But that is just me personally.

How intriguing.

[Vigilant111]

So I take that, in order for these forums not to have arrived to this sad decision, our opinions and discussions should be overtly neutral to positive and there should also have been very very very few trolls. 

 

I wonder if it would be easier if we all pre-order a copy of MEA, take a screenshot of the unique order number and post it here...

 

EDIT: *mono tone*: That was a joke.

[Elhanan]

If you cannot stand the fact that some of us are upset about our forums closing why are you even in here? 
 
Also choosing not to purchase further games from Bioware is a valid response to cumulative disappoints. 
 
Disagreeing with this forum closure and commenting about it in the wake of this decision is more than just "whining". I'm pretty sure that most of us in here are highly aware that nothing we say here is going to reverse the decision and I've only seen a few people who have crossed a line regarding remarks about this closure, ie, acting completely immaturely or saying something uncalled for. 
 
There have always been a few bad members of this forum- but they are throwing the baby out with the bathwater. 
 
If we want to pick apart the reasons, lament, comfort each other, walk down memory lane, raise our metaphorical fists in the air with anger (respectfully), opine and commiserate I see this as no "further proof" that our space be scorched off the Earth you dig?

Utilizing the privilege to speak on the topic concerning our forums like everyone else; simply not choosing to act like many others when voicing said concern. I prefer not to be the baby or the bathwater.

[mrs_anomaly]

I believe the assertion is overly simplistic. It's Bioware's forum. It was their responsibility to provide oversight. They failed. Effective moderation and directionality for the purpose of this forum has long been lacking. Now, for their own reasons they want to nuke it in order to use othe means of communication. Yet the staff are doing odd things like joining fan sites. I suspect there is a DEEP AND PERVASIVE lack of effective leadership in regards to the future and focus of the brand. That concerns me. No one is driving this thing. No wonder it's about to crash.

Yes I agree that it's overly simplistic- but it's the wall I keep seeing us bang our heads again over and over again in this thread:

 

"You were bad, now you must be eradicated"

 

Here's something else I've been thinking about. How many users registered on this forum are actually the ones that spent hours and days and weeks posting about how the ending of ME3 sucked? 

 

I'm not saying those people should be ip banned from the forums (as IF lol, plus, this would be such an act of censorship as to render the forums unusable for true discussion) but how many were there? How many people truly railed against Bioware on this forum? 

 

I know I've participated in a lot of "biower pls" jokes back in the height of the ME3 MP subforum, but I certainly felt that it was all in good humor, fun, lulz and entertainment. 

 

Afterall why would anyone come here if not because they love the games and Bioware? I am willing to bet only a small number simply came here to complain about products. 

 

I know that I've resolved SEVERAL issues that I couldn't through phone calls with EA when I was dealing with DLC issues for DA2 on Origins, when I had issues with some ME3 glitches and my discs, when I had issues period. There have been so many times that I utilized this forum as a repository for excellent troubleshooting and information and a helping hand and it's more than "just discussion" or debates. The help from this site is leaps and bounds better than any wiki I've used, IGN, GFAQ's, blogs, and youtube. etc because I do a LOT of googling and research to make my play throughs run as smoothly as possible and be as "perfect" as possible. 

 

I mean hell, I'm currently in my fifth play through of DAI and I use the DAI "Wicked Hearts and Wicked Eyes" forum post to run through that with the least amount of frustration. 

[Elhanan]

Hainkpe...Point missing it. It's my principle, one that I, alone, for myself, live by. I certainly am not suggesting BioWare believe it or adhere to it or care anything about it. Just don't censor the many, for the few. Or can I not even hope for that?

Elhanan...Firstly BioWare is only half-Canadian, the other half is American, but then again, Texas, in the past, has thought about seeking its independence since their economical relationship with the US Government benefits the government far better than the state...but none of that matters, or applies, what does is that I am well aware the management of this forum is in Edmonton.

Great mixing politics and religion immediately in with free speech. The Constitution has punctuation I believe.

I was here for the BioWare Social Network...closure, transfer, transmog, whatever you want to call it. Granted then BioWare at least attempted not to ruin all the history there by completely scrapping it, but they did manage to definitely shred it somewhat.

Here is hoping we do not repeat history. As the British say...Cheers (Didn't want anyone to misinterpret that as American) and think I was drinking before noon, it is only a little past 11 a.m. where I am.

Austin (ie; SWTOR forums) will remain open. And I was not ref the Constitution, but the BSN Terms of Service. I agreed to that, as did everyone else here.

I looked, and neither are listed specifically. However, I know this is the case, so I might be thinking of a past forum site. Blame my faded memory.

Ciao!

[IotaDelta]

In the past, our forums were the only way we could speak to you directly. They allowed our developers to talk with fans, and gave our players the opportunity to talk with each other about our games. But with the rise of social media and geek culture, there have never been more ways for us to connect.

Now we can travel around the world, meeting with you face-to-face at events like PAX, SDCC, and even shows in our own backyard. We can share stories with you on the go, giving you a look behind the scenes on sites like Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, and Instagram.

In turn, you’ve built your own fantastic communities in places like Tumblr and Reddit. You’ve created comprehensive Wikis and countless pieces of fantastic art, fiction, and cosplay.

 

 

 

First post that I've made on your forum, although I've quietly read various parts of the forum in the past I've never felt the need to communicate directly on them.

 

I will now.

 

I don't use social media sites.  So how do you intend to communicate effectively with customers such as myself in the future?  I don't think you've given this enough thought aside from a cost analysis (I get that you are a business).  I also get that most of the PR teams will be a lot younger than customers such as myself, and all have smart phones and the latest gadgets.

 

Perhaps don't forget about the customers that put companies like yourselves where you are today.  I'm not worried either way, I don't however intend to support a developer that can not maintain their own forums as an effective avenue of communication with their player base.

[AngryFrozenWater]

With the amount of times I get accused of censorship, being in a place where that isnt even in the realm of possibility has an appeal. But that is just me personally.

I've wrote about that problem a while ago and proposed a solution. How about that? Has this been considered?

 

Please read this:

Bioware fans love their games and want to have the best experience. They, much like the developers, want the next game to be better than before and the forums were a platform to allow discussion about that. But such a platform requires more than forum software, servers and technical admins.

DA2 was not well received by many forum members at the time, because of the many flaws it had. You can also hear that many others believed that the game was worth playing, because of the many qualities it had. The details don't matter. Fans of both sides are passionate and they will make their point across with that same passion.

Your can argue that developers are professionals. There is no reason to believe that they are not. They are most likely the best in the industry. They are professionals trained in their specific line of work: writing stories, software development, animation, and so on. Being a professional says nothing about their level of expertise in moderation, though. In the end these developers are just as passionate about the work they do as about the games they create. They also have an interest in the company and in their own careers. There is nothing wrong with that. They are human, like anyone else.
And there lies the problem. The moderators at the time were developers, who with the best intentions tried to moderate passionate discussions, in which they had a personal stake.

Bioware fans often loved the interaction with these developers and maybe Bioware learned something from those discussions to help create better games. As far as we know that was the intention. The problem with that is that fans will take sides with the developers, whenever it suits their passionate arguments. And that does not create fair discussions when these developers moderate a discussion between fans that criticized the game and the ones who defended it. The moderators have to be viewed as a third party, because they, as developers, have a personal stake in the discussion.

That is were things went wrong. Both the fans and moderators became frustrated. The developers left the forums one after the other, until they were finally replaced by faceless moderators with abstract users names, who were outsourced, outnumbered, and had no connection with the games and their fans, nor were they allowed to communicate in any way. There was no consistency in their moderation and fans had to report simple things like obvious trolling, before any action was taken.

A solution is to have volunteer moderators that represent the community. There are many forums of game companies that run well with volunteer moderators, even ones with large communities. That still allows developer interaction, but they don't have to worry about moderation, because it is not their task. A good volunteer moderator takes care of that instead.

Woh, now. Isn't that radical? Not if you believe that these voluntary moderators can be trusted to do their job.

Bioware has tried to use volunteers from the community to moderate the forums before, but always had their developers along side. That is not a great idea, because the problem remains. If one believes in those community volunteers then the company has to trust them and watch how that goes. That didn't happen, and thus the conflicts remained. As a result many left (burned out or not) and because Bioware doesn't trust their community no new volunteers were recruited.

Make no mistake. There are highly intelligent and talented individuals to be found in the community, who could be trusted to moderate. There are no doubt ones that have moderated before on (large) forums elsewhere and have the skills and experience to make it work. There are communication courses available, or courses how to handle aggression, group dynamics, etc. Let these volunteer moderators do those courses. Believe in them. Back them up. Encourage them. Trust them.

[LastFadingSmile]

 

I don't use social media sites.  So how do you intend to communicate effectively with customers such as myself in the future? 

 

Short answer? They don't.  =\

[LPPrince]

With the amount of times I get accused of censorship, being in a place where that isnt even in the realm of possibility has an appeal. But that is just me personally.

 

 

Fair enough. I guess thats why the moderating on the forum was moved to a third party.

[Bryan Johnson]

I've wrote about that problem a while ago and proposed a solution. How about that? Has this been considered?

 

Please read this:

Having employees not have moderating powers and only allowing for fans, is potential grounds for litigation. Also as stated this is my opinion I have no idea about other employees, the only people I have ever really talked to about the forums is Jesse, and Allan. 

 

 

Fair enough. I guess thats why the moderating on the forum was moved to a third party.

Well no matter what Employees have maintained their moderation status. We just went from Stan+CP (Primarily) + Fan Mods to 3rd Party + Fan Mods (which mostly fell off). 

 

I am just saying regardless having a BioWare employee posting on a BioWare forum, I can be accused of censorship, and people will rally behind this because its plausible. At which point my time is spent combating these allegations vs interacting.

[LPPrince]

Note to all mods in the splinter boards- When you give someone a warning point/suspension/ban, link them to the post in question that broke a rule and tell them why. Don't just knock them down and not tell them why. Thats dirty.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

How intriguing.

 

On a small or large scale, he's actually referring to an inevitable consequence of moderation.

 

There's probably a bit of a formula to it. Something along the lines of: The greater the ingrained political or emotional power at the core of the statement; the greater the intensity of the moment of creation; the greater the offence at the position opposed; Then the greater the likelihood of moderation being perceived as censorship.

 

A collection of probabilities that will reinforce each other in ways that go beyond what each might individually cause.

 

So, whereas you could understandably interpret that there might be one, or a few specific stories that would be at the core of what he said, at the scale of BSN, the odds of that accusation resulting from moderation actions rises to the place where it becomes an accepted byproduct of the activity. If that's not something someone is comfortable with,  one is going to find moderating others' behaviour to be unpleasant.

 

For what it's worth, all other opinions about the moderation on BioWare's sites aside, I have traditionally seen very little of what I would perceive as "censorship."

 

I don't recall seeing it from Bryan Johnson or Conal Pierse, and with the numbered mods, my experience is that there is a plethora of other explanations at the heart of moderation actions that are simpler, more direct and more likely than formal censorship.

 

Looking back at the named moderators, I would say Raen did not censor people in my experience, and what many people interpreted as Ninja Stan's tendency to censor was more of a combination of two related probability fields: The post being directed at BioWare specifically, and any measurable rule violation/hostility in the post. I don't actually think Ninja Stan spent much time censoring opinions, but rather equitably distributing his very strict and consistent interpretations of the rules.

 

I didn't mean to go on that long, but what I'm saying is that there is an inevitable perception on BSN - as there would be on any site like it - that moderation actions equal censorship. It doesn't need to be anywhere close to a majority for the probability to make it a near-constant element of moderation.

 

I have little doubt that actual "censorship" has taken place through moderation, and have seen some examples. Similar to the probabilities at play with the community at large, similar tendencies to be guided by one's own politics to the point of moderation (at least partly) based on them is also inevitable, beyond a certain point in size. Similarly, this doesn't need to be anywhere near a majority for it to present itself with some consistency.

 

In my experience, the accusations of censorship outnumber the likely instances of it by a factor that I expect goes well beyond 100 to 1. And that is largely what I would expect on site hosting a community of this size.

 

And I still didn't mean to go on this long, and shall stop now.

[LPPrince]

Having employees not have moderating powers and only allowing for fans, is potential grounds for litigation. Also as stated this is my opinion I have no idea about other employees, the only people I have ever really talked to about the forums is Jesse, and Allan. 

 

 

Well no matter what Employees have maintained their moderation status. We just went from Stan+CP (Primarily) + Fan Mods to 3rd Party + Fan Mods (which mostly fell off). 

 

I am just saying regardless having a BioWare employee posting on a BioWare forum, I can be accused of censorship, and people will rally behind this because its plausible. At which point my time is spent combating these allegations vs interacting.

 

I'd have your back for what its worth. Probably very little now with the forum closing, but you've always been cool. You're good Brojo. Never forget that.

[Vigilant111]

Fair enough. I guess thats why the moderating on the forum was moved to a third party.

 

This outsourcing moderation is utterly unfathomable. Imagine if I would like remove Facebook pages defaming BW, I would have to seek Facebook's permission to do that, right?

 

Social media is like fast food, it is all about sensation, hype and nothing substantial, ultimately unsuitable for in-depth game content discussions

[Rifneno]

I keep seeing posts condemning all the negativity at DA2 when it was released, saying they liked the game. At least half a dozen of those posts through the thread.

If you liked that game, fine. Good for you. But don't pretend the complaints weren't justified. They absolutely were. The game had many huge flaws that were not simply a matter of opinion. The recycled dungeons, the way the game offers you choices and then rolls its eyes and slaps your hand away if you reach for the wrong one, the sheer nonsensicality of the story, the absurd battles with wave after wave jumping down from rooftops like it's a crappy early 90's beat 'em up game... these things aren't "My favorite color is red and yours is blue", these are objectively bad things. The game was miles below Bioware's standard and with its hilarious short development cycle that's to be expected.

The fact that BSN didn't like DA2 doesn't prove it was "toxic", it proves it had some standards.

Well, I doubt that's the only reason. We don't see New York and California talking about secession. Anyway, the US wouldn't work if the rich states didn't subsidize the small ones. That's why the euro is destroying the EU.

Actually there are secessionists in every state and Texas has barely more than most other states. The difference is that secessionists in other states realize it's a pipe dream and Texas has more people who don't understand how anything in the world works. Texas doesn't have more secessionists, Texas has more secessionists that are under the absurd notion it's realistic. If they actually thought about the consequences of it: the fact that everything coming from the US would now be more expensive because it's imported goods and customs is a thing that exists, the fact they'd need their own military, the fact that Texan soldiers stationed in the US would be forced to leave Texas to protect the country they swore to protect or face court marshal, the fact that the US government wouldn't let them go without a fight and they'd get raped in a second Civil War, or even the simple fact that they're a loud minority and the great majority of Texans do not want to secede... then they'd realize they're living in a fantasy world where 2+2=banana.

Instead, all they see is that the state gives more than it takes. Which, BTW, it wouldn't continue to make once all the big companies down there pack up and head to the US the second Texas leaves. It's extra funny because all the extra money they give to the feds, the feds give back to the rest of the south. Texas is about the only southern red state that pulls its weight. The rest of the bible belt takes FAR more than it gives. So Texas isn't helping "them damn New England liberals" (who, like Texas, give more than they take), they're helping their own idealogical and physical neighbors.

But whatever. Texit.

[LPPrince]

This outsourcing moderation is utterly unfathomable. Imagine if I would like remove Facebook pages defaming BW, I would have to seek Facebook's permission to do that, right?

 

Social media is like fast food, it is all about sensation, hype and nothing substantial, ultimately unsuitable for in-depth game content discussions

 

 

Agreed, but how do you convince the corporate higher ups who see numbers as being worth more than time and value?

[Fiery Phoenix]

So maybe devs joining other places could mean they don't necessarily support this, but also can't speak against it? If they really are that powerless, then they show their support of us a little more indirectly without going full renegade, or rivalry, with the "higher ups."

I thought it was pretty obvious that this is a suit's decision. Wouldn't surprise me if EA had something to do with it.

[AngryFrozenWater]

Having employees not have moderating powers and only allowing for fans, is potential grounds for litigation. Also as stated this is my opinion I have no idea about other employees, the only people I have ever really talked to about the forums is Jesse, and Allan.

Thanks for your answer.

 

Other companies have forums for many years, which are moderated by volunteers. Obviously these have the backup of the community manager and/or system admin. Are these potentially in legal trouble then?

[Abedsbrother]

I don't think that I have actually ever posted since the BSN forums.  But, ya.  It speaks volumes about the devs own opinion of ME:A.

 

edit: I just started another play through of DAO.  Where do I go?  STEAM forums?  Reddit?

Steam's DAO forums are quite large and have a decent amount of traffic. There's no organization to the threads, though; they're all jumbled together.

[Wolven_Soul]

It's not a book, it's a stage play but sorry about the spoilers still.

 

From what I just read in that review, I don't mind it being spoiled.  Good freaking grief it sounds atrocious.

[Bryan Johnson]

Thanks for your answer.

 

Other companies have forums for many years, which are moderated by volunteers. Obviously these have the backup of the community manager and/or system admin. Are these potentially in legal trouble then?

Even with loose affiliation for volunteer mods the company can still be blamed it's fun. The prime example I can think of is the Moderator of Payday 2 steam community.

 

But anyways this is based on my opinion.

[Han Shot First]

Here's something else I've been thinking about. How many users registered on this forum are actually the ones that spent hours and days and weeks posting about how the ending of ME3 sucked?

I'm not saying those people should be ip banned from the forums (as IF lol, plus, this would be such an act of censorship as to render the forums unusable for true discussion) but how many were there? How many people truly railed against Bioware on this forum?

*Raises hand*

I'm not sure how many people posting here today have been hanging around since 2012, but at the time ME3's endings were overwhelmingly disliked by the majority of forumites and the main forum was flooded for weeks, if not months, with criticism. Of course there were also some who liked the endings.

While that was probably the craziest time in the lifespan of Bioware's official forums, I'd disagree with the "toxic" label. Emotions were running high and there was plenty of trolls, shitposts, and ratcheting up of the hyperbole ( welcome to the Internet), a great deal of the criticism was also well thought out and constructive. The majority of posters were not violating the ToS or flinging around personal insults at the devs.

Some of the wackier fan reactions to the ending controversy also weren't necessarily toxic. The indoctrination theorists may have been a bit too eager in trying to convert others to their interpretation of the endings, but they were harmless, and they were coming from a good place...enthusiasm and investment in the stories and characters Bioware created. There was also the whole Retake thing, but what was the worst thing they did? Sending red, green, and blue cupcakes to Bioware or raising money for a charity as publicity stunts? The horror!

That Bioware considered closing this place then, and is now carrying it out, just seems a bit like some higher ups at Bioware were unhappy that the great unwashed of the BSN had the temerity to give negative feedback on the official forums, instead of being an unpaid hype machine, all the time.

The best solution to avoid fan criticism isn't trying to muzzle your fans. It is creating quality products that don't have much to criticize, and not treating your fans like an embarrassing annoyance except for when you have a product you're trying to sell. See CD Projekt Red.

[Vigilant111]

Agreed, but how do you convince the corporate higher ups who see numbers as being worth more than time and value?

 

That is a very good question, IMO it is all about short term effects and long term effects. Most people are impatient, while others persevere, the latter usually survives

 

First game is bad, devs follow up? If yes, possibility for purchasing second game will look good, if no, then it is farewell, people don't need business degrees to understand that. Business needs to grow and adapt if it wants to survive

 

Keeping this forum alive is a form of adaptation, if the business manages this place well and be proactive. Closing this place, counter-productive because everyone else already use other mediums

 

You might say: But other studios also have their own forums, so maybe closing this place down may be a better alternative... No because this forum is only unique to this business while Facebook is not unique because it caters to everyone, only BW gamers are privy to this forum's user interface and features, BW culture and values

 

EDIT: to add, it is about brand loyalty, this forum promotes that because of its ability to create emotional attachment, as evident by the many passionate, angry posts, even lurkers come out and voiced their opinions. Facebook, on the other hand, feels like an impersonal tool, in comparison, it sends you lots of ads and reminders but not much information, I highly doubt a rational being will simply just fall in love without knowing anything and do exactly what some Facebook page tells them to do, in short, Facebook simply does not have that personal bond this forum has with many gamers

[LPPrince]

Even with loose affiliation for volunteer mods the company can still be blamed it's fun. The prime example I can think of is the Moderator of Payday 2 steam community.

 

But anyways this is based on my opinion.

 

 

Damn. Reminds me of back in the day when Bioware was still looking for new community mods. The fielding process was crazy;no suspensions whatsoever for any reason, had to have a notable known presence on the forum(so no newbie scrubs), had to have a solid awareness of the site rules(naturally), be mature(naturally), etc etc

 

I remember suggesting a few as community mods but those folks never got the position. A friend did but he messed up and had his privileges revoked(then again I could've told him sticking his own thread about a problem he had was ridiculous).

 

Still, community mods make the place feel more comfortable. Its weird when its just developers. It goes from weird to militant when its a third party that no one here knows or can identify with.

 

Here I am again missing the olden days and wishing we could go back to that relationship between fans, devs, and the forum.

[FieryDove]

With the amount of times I get accused of censorship, being in a place where that isnt even in the realm of possibility has an appeal. But that is just me personally.

 

Sorry you had to put up with that.

 

I don't think Dev's should ever be moderators unless they really like it. It's frustrating at the best of times. Devs have their own deadline, milestones and crunch time to deal with. I've seen Allan blow his top on more than one occasion but there was nothing I could do about it to help. There really needs to be a dedicated community manager and a large rotating stable of both paid and volunteer mods for a format this size.

But I do appreciate the fact that some tried to mod and engage us fans. And yes I may rant about "PC" version of DAI but I am still a fan of most in BW including those that left BW and their games.

I do think there are deeper issues here. I've just seen EA's financial results. Dragon Age gets a mention but no Mass Effect at all that I can see. Maybe a typo that it was left out. I had thought ME was the flagship according to EA for so long.

(snip)
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(end snip)