5682 réponses à ce sujet

[Han Shot First]

You are not wrong. 
 
This is all so depressing. I have decided I'm not buying anymore Bioware games moving forward and it's really a bummer. I'm probably not even going to talk about games online anymore.

You don't have to like the artist to appreciate the art.

If you're interested in one of Bioware's games it would be better to buy used, if the closing of the BSN is an unforgivable bridge burner for you. You don't miss out on the game you otherwise might enjoy, but your money goes entirely to the retailer.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

There was then a long apology thread from the fans

 

I remember a few days later when every thread on ME multiplayer's front page had a BioWare tag on it.

 

[Wolven_Soul]

I keep seeing posts condemning all the negativity at DA2 when it was released, saying they liked the game. At least half a dozen of those posts through the thread.

If you liked that game, fine. Good for you. But don't pretend the complaints weren't justified. They absolutely were. The game had many huge flaws that were not simply a matter of opinion. The recycled dungeons, the way the game offers you choices and then rolls its eyes and slaps your hand away if you reach for the wrong one, the sheer nonsensicality of the story, the absurd battles with wave after wave jumping down from rooftops like it's a crappy early 90's beat 'em up game... these things aren't "My favorite color is red and yours is blue", these are objectively bad things. The game was miles below Bioware's standard and with its hilarious short development cycle that's to be expected.

The fact that BSN didn't like DA2 doesn't prove it was "toxic", it proves it had some standards.
 

 

Agreed whole heartedly.  Love the game all that you want, it and DA:I.  I would never hold that against a person.  In fact, I envy their ability to love those games.  Just don't try and pretend like they don't have huge flaws. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

The problem I am talking about is, we would likely get our volunteer mods called BioDrones because you know we had a hand in picking them, 

Thanks.

 

Mwah. Not sure about that, though. Of course you have to handpick them. There has to be a proper selection. I've seen a volunteer mod capable of constructive criticism on a forum of a game, which name must not be uttered here. He seems to be able to manage both sides of an argument. A proper discussion technique, like many of us don't possess, is a requirement. The whole idea falls or stands with trust. Backup the idea and tell exactly why you do it. Make that public. Educate these mods in the way I've proposed. I'll bet that, if BW was supporting such an open plan, that they'll praise you guys in heaven, because the alternative is continue with the plan to close the forums down.

 

There seems to be little trust on both sides. One of those sides needs to take the initiative, otherwise nothing ever happens, except the fragmentation of this community. Closing is the easy way out, especially because other companies seem to be successful. It's proof that it can be done.

[Wolven_Soul]

*Raises hand*

I'm not sure how many people posting here today have been hanging around since 2012, but at the time ME3's endings were overwhelmingly disliked by the majority of forumites and the main forum was flooded for weeks, if not months, with criticism. Of course there were also some who liked the endings.

While that was probably the craziest time in the lifespan of Bioware's official forums, I'd disagree with the "toxic" label. Emotions were running high and there was plenty of trolls, shitposts, and ratcheting up of the hyperbole ( welcome to the Internet), a great deal of the criticism was also well thought out and constructive. The majority of posters were not violating the ToS or flinging around personal insults at the devs.

Some of the wackier fan reactions to the ending controversy also weren't necessarily toxic. The indoctrination theorists may have been a bit too eager in trying to convert others to their interpretation of the endings, but they were harmless, and they were coming from a good place...enthusiasm and investment in the stories and characters Bioware created. There was also the whole Retake thing, but what was the worst thing they did? Sending red, green, and blue cupcakes to Bioware or raising money for a charity as publicity stunts? The horror!

That Bioware considered closing this place then, and is now carrying it out, just seems a bit like some higher ups at Bioware were unhappy that the great unwashed of the BSN had the temerity to give negative feedback on the official forums, instead of being an unpaid hype machine, all the time.

The best solution to avoid fan criticism isn't trying to muzzle your fans. It is creating quality products that don't have much to criticize, and not treating your fans like an embarrassing annoyance except for when you have a product you're trying to sell. See CD Projekt Red.

 

Me as well.  I think I spent more time railing against ME3's endings than I did actually playing the game.  I was only able to do one playthrough and I only watched the EC through YouTube videos, found them dissatisfying, and refused to do another one.  I spent more time in the game's MP than I did with the actual game, and I thought the addition of MP was a horrible idea in the beginning.  Changed my mind about that though.

[mrs_anomaly]

I keep seeing posts condemning all the negativity at DA2 when it was released, saying they liked the game. At least half a dozen of those posts through the thread.

If you liked that game, fine. Good for you. But don't pretend the complaints weren't justified. They absolutely were. The game had many huge flaws that were not simply a matter of opinion. The recycled dungeons, the way the game offers you choices and then rolls its eyes and slaps your hand away if you reach for the wrong one, the sheer nonsensicality of the story, the absurd battles with wave after wave jumping down from rooftops like it's a crappy early 90's beat 'em up game... these things aren't "My favorite color is red and yours is blue", these are objectively bad things. The game was miles below Bioware's standard and with its hilarious short development cycle that's to be expected.

The fact that BSN didn't like DA2 doesn't prove it was "toxic", it proves it had some standards.


Actually there are secessionists in every state and Texas has barely more than most other states. The difference is that secessionists in other states realize it's a pipe dream and Texas has more people who don't understand how anything in the world works. Texas doesn't have more secessionists, Texas has more secessionists that are under the absurd notion it's realistic. If they actually thought about the consequences of it: the fact that everything coming from the US would now be more expensive because it's imported goods and customs is a thing that exists, the fact they'd need their own military, the fact that Texan soldiers stationed in the US would be forced to leave Texas to protect the country they swore to protect or face court marshal, the fact that the US government wouldn't let them go without a fight and they'd get raped in a second Civil War, or even the simple fact that they're a loud minority and the great majority of Texans do not want to secede... then they'd realize they're living in a fantasy world where 2+2=banana.

Instead, all they see is that the state gives more than it takes. Which, BTW, it wouldn't continue to make once all the big companies down there pack up and head to the US the second Texas leaves. It's extra funny because all the extra money they give to the feds, the feds give back to the rest of the south. Texas is about the only southern red state that pulls its weight. The rest of the bible belt takes FAR more than it gives. So Texas isn't helping "them damn New England liberals" (who, like Texas, give more than they take), they're helping their own idealogical and physical neighbors.

But whatever. Texit.

Just saying, I'm a Texan and my entire family is (although I'm an import) and I know zero persons that want to secede. Zero. I mean ONCE I saw another mother with her BMW x5 in front of me dropping our kids off at the Montessori and she had a secede Texas bumper sticker but she's the only person I've ever seen with that. 

 

Also, *looks at watch* this decision still sucks. 

[mrs_anomaly]

You don't have to like the artist to appreciate the art.

If you're interested in one of Bioware's games it would be better to buy used, if the closing of the BSN is an unforgivable bridge burner for you. You don't miss out on the game you otherwise might enjoy, but your money goes entirely to the retailer.

You're completely right. 

 

I'm a huge reader (I read hundreds of books a year) and I have quit mid series in books if something really makes me irate about an author. I don't post reviews about it on Goodreads or Amazon or tweet vitriol- I just stop buying their books.

 

I do not go looking or witch hunting the artists of the media I enjoy but if something comes to my attention that I strongly disagree with morally or ethically I'm out. 

 

Also not saying Bioware is unethical or morally dubious I just cannot overlook this terrible decision. 

[Vigilant111]

Thanks.

 

Mwah. Not sure about that, though. Of course you have to handpick them. There has to be a proper selection. I've seen a volunteer mod capable of constructive criticism on a forum of a game, which name must not be uttered here. He seems to be able to manage both sides of an argument. A proper discussion technique, like many of us don't possess, is a requirement. The whole idea falls or stands with trust. Backup the idea and tell exactly why you do it. Make that public. Educate these mods in the way I've proposed. I'll bet that, if BW was supporting such an open plan, that they'll praise you guys in heaven, because the alternative is continue with the plan to close the forums down.

 

There seems to be little trust on both sides. One of those sides needs to take the initiative, otherwise nothing ever happens, except the fragmentation of this community. Closing is the easy way out, especially because other companies seem to be successful.

 

Yes, the moderation must be upgraded from the traditional "Stop fighting or you will all get banned." approach. Mods must possess good interpersonal communication skills as this will greatly help promote a more respectful environment

 

EDIT: I would also add that, mods should uphold the interests of the forum community ONLY and not anything else

[Jesse Reid]

Brojo can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the system works (and in the past more or less worked) like this:

 

The developers have moderation privileges activated on their accounts, and certain administrative privileges over forums associated directly with their purview (In Brojo's case, as QA for ME 3 MP at the time, that would be the ME 3 Multiplayer forum.)

 

Their role as moderators is functionally similar to that of the volunteers, but they are not required to act as moderators as part of their duties. For some, doing so would be an inevitable byproduct of their involvement in the forum. For the majority, though, it was their preference not to.

 

I believe that has been true for the 4 or 5 years that I've been around.

 

There are only a few employees who have mod privileges. Outside of the web/community team some of the ME3 multiplayer team, like Bryan, who had requested mod privileges since they were active in the MP boards. The admin privileges are limited to the web team and whoever the community manager is at the time. I believe it might have been slightly different on the BSN forums, I'm not 100% sure since it has been a while. The moderation tools on BSN were pretty basic, and we had to write most of them, which was part of the reason why we switched to IP.Board.

 

The volunteer mods haven't been as active since ModSquad came onboard but there are a few that are still around. Fozee, Craig, Kevin, and Selene come to mind.

[SmilesJA]

They were huge flaws because the game was highly disliked by fans. Deal with it.

 

Deal with what? They were big flaws to you and others, but not other people.

[Elhanan]

I keep seeing posts condemning all the negativity at DA2 when it was released, saying they liked the game. At least half a dozen of those posts through the thread.

If you liked that game, fine. Good for you. But don't pretend the complaints weren't justified. They absolutely were. The game had many huge flaws that were not simply a matter of opinion. The recycled dungeons, the way the game offers you choices and then rolls its eyes and slaps your hand away if you reach for the wrong one, the sheer nonsensicality of the story, the absurd battles with wave after wave jumping down from rooftops like it's a crappy early 90's beat 'em up game... these things aren't "My favorite color is red and yours is blue", these are objectively bad things. The game was miles below Bioware's standard and with its hilarious short development cycle that's to be expected.

The fact that BSN didn't like DA2 doesn't prove it was "toxic", it proves it had some standards....

There is a vast difference between constructive crit, and the extreme negative reactionary postings that were seen then, and again now. Informing Bioware about the repeated caverns, Sky Ninjas, alien Elves and cartoon Darkspawn helped improve the content for DAI. However, threats against devs, name calling, and other forms of tantrum tossing remains absurd, and understandably, harder to shrug away.

FWIW - I still prefer the changes made to Flemeth, the Qunari, Talents, and full VO. Not the most polished title, but one I still enjoy.

[Eryri]

I sure as hell didn't. I was with the IT group. We had 6000 pages of praise for BW and speculative analysis of the game. What did they do? They banned the topic, and permabanned anyone who questioned the decision or dared to mention IT anyway. While they didn't technically ban everyone that "fell in line", they might as well have. The few that tried to stay around were harassed, ridiculed, and treated like lepers. They couldn't even talk about other topics because they were a known "crazy person." Unlike the way they permabanned us for the slightest thing, these attacks were ignored by the mod team.Bioware deserves to be hammered with nothing but "toxicity" when they treat their fans like they do.

Ah happy days. /s

I especially remember how Priestly decided to throw shade on Banshee individually in his banishment notice (*) for being slightly more prolific than Banshee should have been with his largely positive and good natured posts. He was apparently too social for the Bioware Social Network. Then we were consigned to that dreadful, backwater part of the old BSN that you couldn't search or easily navigate to the latest post. What an absolute ray of sunshine Mr Priestly was.

@mrs_anomaly - I confess I did my share of venting in the first few days after beating the game. But when I first heard about the Indoctrination Theory I found it such an attractive idea that I mellowed considerably. Even if Bioware hadn't thought of it themselves I thought it improved the last game immeasurably. Until we were forbidden to talk about it, that is.

* Edit - by which I mean the public thread-locking notice that Priestly posted in which he forbade us to start any other threads about I.T.

[LPPrince]

You're completely right. 

 

I'm a huge reader (I read hundreds of books a year) and I have quit mid series in books if something really makes me irate about an author. I don't post reviews about it on Goodreads or Amazon or tweet vitriol- I just stop buying their books.

 

I do not go looking or witch hunting the artists of the media I enjoy but if something comes to my attention that I strongly disagree with morally or ethically I'm out. 

 

Also not saying Bioware is unethical or morally dubious I just cannot overlook this terrible decision. 

 

 

Problem with gamers is that oftentimes they'll say "I hate this" "I hate that" "I won't support this" "I won't support that" but STILL GET THE GAMES ANYWAY.

 

Its irritating. For example, remember Bungie's game Destiny? I played it for a couple of months and then it felt like more of a chore. It got old. I put it down and told my raid group and friends, "I won't ever be playing this again". They didn't believe me.

 

That was late 2014. And I have still not touched it since.

 

But you can bet that many who would say the same things would be jumping right back in.

 

The sad thing is, gamers let people manipulate them. It happens all the time. Gamers want to play games and no matter what makes them annoyed/mad/sad, they're still most likely going to go out and play those games made by people they disagree with or don't support. Its odd.

 

Lets look at Bioware for example. Mr. Manveer Heir and his White Tears mug. That pissed A LOT of people off, myself included. A lot of people saying they won't support anything he has a hand in. Technically that includes Andromeda. But guess what? Most are still going to get the game.

[Rifneno]

Deal with what? They were big flaws to you and others, but not other people.

They were objectively big flaws. You can keep going "well that's like, just your opinion man" but it doesn't change the fact that the gaming community as a whole thought DA2 was a turd.

Let's go check Metacritic. You know, the place that BW employees were caught trying to rig the score in their favor.

The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings, the closest thing DA2 had to direct competition
Positive: 1,137
Mixed: 118
Negative: 110
User Score: 8.5

Mass Effect 3, the most complained about thing in the history of human language
Positive: 699
Mixed: 315
Negative: 1,125
User Score: 5.5

Dragon Age 2, a singularity of huge flaws
Positive: 391
Mixed: 280
Negative: 1,047
User Score: 4.4

It did worse than ME3!

They aren't huge flaws because I say they're huge flaws. They're huge flaws because the great majority of players agree that they're huge flaws and the only defense you or anyone else has against them is "well that's just like, your opinion man."

[LPPrince]

Dragon Age 2 also had competition with Skyrim. Naturally Skyrim slaughtered it. Hell I bought Skyrim as a result of being disappointed in DA2.

 

Mentioned that a lot on the forums. Was probably one of the reasons people in Bioware wanted the place shuttered back then.

[Rifneno]

Ah happy days. /s

I especially remember how Priestly decided to throw shade on Banshee individually in his banishment notice for being slightly more prolific than Banshee should have been with his largely positive and good natured posts. He was apparently too social for the Bioware Social Network. Then we were consigned to that dreadful, backwater part of the old BSN that you couldn't search or easily navigate to the latest post. What an absolute ray of sunshine Mr Priestly was.

Oh God, I'd forgotten how he called out Banshee like that. WTF was the point in that besides mocking someone? Would Priestly like it if someone posted his weight?

[AngryFrozenWater]

There are only a few employees who have mod privileges. Outside of the web/community team some of the ME3 multiplayer team, like Bryan, who had requested mod privileges since they were active in the MP boards. The admin privileges are limited to the web team and whoever the community manager is at the time. I believe it might have been slightly different on the BSN forums, I'm not 100% sure since it has been a while. The moderation tools on BSN were pretty basic, and we had to write most of them, which was part of the reason why we switched to IP.Board.

 

The volunteer mods haven't been as active since ModSquad came onboard but there are a few that are still around. Fozee, Craig, Kevin, and Selene come to mind.

Thanks for taking the time to interact, Jesse.

 

I'm not sure if you are allowed to answer, but how are these volunteer mods currently supported? Have they backup in any way? Are there meetings?

 

BTW: I have respect for these guys. Don't forget Ilidan_DA (the Polish guy). I talked to him in the past. He's cool.

[mrs_anomaly]

Problem with gamers is that oftentimes they'll say "I hate this" "I hate that" "I won't support this" "I won't support that" but STILL GET THE GAMES ANYWAY.

 

Its irritating. For example, remember Bungie's game Destiny? I played it for a couple of months and then it felt like more of a chore. It got old. I put it down and told my raid group and friends, "I won't ever be playing this again". They didn't believe me.

 

That was late 2014. And I have still not touched it since.

 

But you can bet that many who would say the same things would be jumping right back in.

 

The sad thing is, gamers let people manipulate them. It happens all the time. Gamers want to play games and no matter what makes them annoyed/mad/sad, they're still most likely going to go out and play those games made by people they disagree with or don't support. Its odd.

 

Lets look at Bioware for example. Mr. Manveer Heir and his White Tears mug. That pissed A LOT of people off, myself included. A lot of people saying they won't support anything he has a hand in. Technically that includes Andromeda. But guess what? Most are still going to get the game.

 

I have every single Halo game except Halo Wars (because I didn't like that style of game play) and I also read a lot of the books. 

Destiny had a lot of hype and promise- I preordered it and also bought another copy for my teenaged son as a gift. Serious disapoint for me. I hated it eventually and yep, I quit playing it. Didn't buy any new DLC and didn't order additional copies for my other consoles (I have xbox 360, Xbox One and PS4). 

 

I buy the DLC's for my son if he asks for them but I'm never putting more money into that. 

 

And yes gamers too often just keep on buying and complaining. It's like telling your spouse over and over again that you're "not going to take it anymore" or telling your children "or else" and or else never happens. 

 

You give others power over yourself, I'll choose dignity and not continue to pay for something that bothers me so much. 

 

I am not advocating others to just dump Bioware like I am. I realize that I'm a precious flower, I'm really an emotional person and this gets me in the feels so much, so that's why I'm doing what I have to. 

[Vigilant111]

They were objectively big flaws. You can keep going "well that's like, just your opinion man" but it doesn't change the fact that the gaming community as a whole thought DA2 was a turd.

Let's go check Metacritic. You know, the place that BW employees were caught trying to rig the score in their favor.

The Witcher 2: Assassins of Kings, the closest thing DA2 had to direct competition
Positive: 1,137
Mixed: 118
Negative: 110
User Score: 8.5

Mass Effect 3, the most complained about thing in the history of human language
Positive: 699
Mixed: 315
Negative: 1,125
User Score: 5.5

Dragon Age 2, a singularity of huge flaws
Positive: 391
Mixed: 280
Negative: 1,047
User Score: 4.4

It did worse than ME3!

They aren't huge flaws because I say they're huge flaws. They're huge flaws because the great majority of players agree that they're huge flaws and the only defense you or anyone else has against them is "well that's just like, your opinion man."

 

Ah, so these are the numbers that they choose to ignore...

 

LPPrince: Are you looking at this?

[Fiery Phoenix]

I have a hard time thinking other game companies don't have similar problems to here, yet they somehow manage to keep things running without nuking everything.

Bethesda, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Bungie, and indeed CD Projekt RED all do. They all have their own forums and communities, all of which have their fair share of positives and negatives. Why BioWare feels compelled to do things differently, I have no clue.

[rolson00]

As a veteran of BSN im heartbroken, is this EA breaking up the family? 

[Sifr]

*Raises hand*

I'm not sure how many people posting here today have been hanging around since 2012, but at the time ME3's endings were overwhelmingly disliked by the majority of forumites and the main forum was flooded for weeks, if not months, with criticism. Of course there were also some who liked the endings.

While that was probably the craziest time in the lifespan of Bioware's official forums, I'd disagree with the "toxic" label. Emotions were running high and there was plenty of trolls, shitposts, and ratcheting up of the hyperbole ( welcome to the Internet), a great deal of the criticism was also well thought out and constructive. The majority of posters were not violating the ToS or flinging around personal insults at the devs.

Some of the wackier fan reactions to the ending controversy also weren't necessarily toxic. The indoctrination theorists may have been a bit too eager in trying to convert others to their interpretation of the endings, but they were harmless, and they were coming from a good place...enthusiasm and investment in the stories and characters Bioware created. There was also the whole Retake thing, but what was the worst thing they did? Sending red, green, and blue cupcakes to Bioware or raising money for a charity as publicity stunts? The horror!

That Bioware considered closing this place then, and is now carrying it out, just seems a bit like some higher ups at Bioware were unhappy that the great unwashed of the BSN had the temerity to give negative feedback on the official forums, instead of being an unpaid hype machine, all the time.

The best solution to avoid fan criticism isn't trying to muzzle your fans. It is creating quality products that don't have much to criticize, and not treating your fans like an embarrassing annoyance except for when you have a product you're trying to sell. See CD Projekt Red.

 

I've been here since around 2011, so I had a front row seat to how wacky things got post-ME3.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that the forums were toxic during that time either, but as you said, it was time when emotions were running high and a lot of people were underwhelmed and felt that the original endings being a colour palette swap was substandard work.

 

Yeah, there was a lot of overreaction to the ME3 debacle, but both sides are guilty of that.

 

We may have a few enclaves out there who continue to (half-jokingly) grumble, but the majority of the anger had mostly subsided by the time that the Extended Cut and Citadel came out in 2013. We've had a rather nice community atmosphere in the run up to and post Inquisition.

 

So why do some parties at Bioware (or former members) still feel the need to bash the forums even to this day?

[Rifneno]

Bethesda, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Bungie, and indeed CD Projekt RED all do. They all have their own forums and communities, all of which have their fair share of positives and negatives.

People are positive at SE?

... (confused) Why?

[Elhanan]

They were objectively big flaws. You can keep going "well that's like, just your opinion man" but it doesn't change the fact that the gaming community as a whole thought DA2 was a turd.

Let's go check Metacritic. You know, the place that BW employees were caught trying to rig the score in their favor.
It did worse than ME3!....

They aren't huge flaws because I say they're huge flaws. They're huge flaws because the great majority of players agree that they're huge flaws and the only defense you or anyone else has against them is "well that's just like, your opinion man."

Metacritic is a poor choice to try and prove objectivity. Since the scores are skewed, algorithms are flawed, and non-Players can vote 0 - 10, these examples indicate nothing of importance other than these are opinions, and still =/= fact.

[Vigilant111]

Bethesda, Ubisoft, Square Enix, Bungie, and indeed CD Projekt RED all do. They all have their own forums and communities, all of which have their fair share of positives and negatives.

 

Just a thought: would it be fair to evaluate themes from BW games as more controversial than games from other studios? Is it possible that the debates are more heated here than elsewhere? Hence harder to control? (This is by no means an excuse to close down the forums)