25 réponses à ce sujet

[Nezhaa]

This is my first play through with a rouge archer. I used Howe and leliana before but all i did was put willpower and dex. And when i did the same for my character it keeps missing and i do no damage even with far song. What am i missing

[capn233]

What level are you?

 

What do your attributes look like?

 

What specialization have you taken?

 

What gear are you using?

 

What is your typical party, and how are they spec'd?

 

Are you in Origins?  Origins archery is a lot different than in Awakening because you don't have the "Accuracy" talent like Howe has.  In general the simplest way to do an archer for origins is to build it for auto-attack with sustains up.  People will argue over what they like best, but it is probably best to spend all your attribute points on dexterity or cunning, with whatever proportion between the two you want as long as you get Lethality.

 

Your attack vs enemy target defense determines the hit chance.  There are a lot of ways to increase attack, but as far as your attributes go strength and dexterity do this directly.  Indirectly cunning can, but that is via Song of Courage.  Alternatively, there is various gear that adds dexterity or attack.

 

Early game when crit chance is low, consider running Rapid Shot.  Later when you have gear with "Rapid Aim" attribute, use Aim instead.  Aim gives +15 attack if you have Master Archer.

 

Best specialization for archers is Bard (w/ Song of Courage to buff damage, crit chance, and attack), the next best depends on how you want to play the character, where you invest your points, etc.  Duelist is good for +"11" attack (via Dueling active and +2 dex), or Ranger is ok if you like pets / summons.

 

The wiki has a strategy section for archery that might be helpful to you.

[Snowdog65]

This is my first play through with a rouge archer. I used Howe and leliana before but all i did was put willpower and dex. And when i did the same for my character it keeps missing and i do no damage even with far song. What am i missing

 

Maybe too many points in willpower. 

 

If you are having trouble hitting, switching to a cunning build will only make that worse.

 

Maximize Dex, and go Duelist to maximizing your hit rate.

[Elhanan]

These are my general recommendations:

For my archers, I like to utilize Heavy armor and take advantage of the Master Archer perk. But this is not to everyone's taste. So plan your STR accordingly. For Light armor, STR 20 DAO/ 24 DAA; Medium - STR 34 DAO/ 44 DAA; and Heavy STR 38 DAO/ 48 DAA.

CON can be up to 20.

CUN for Warriors at 16; Rogues between 22 - 30.

MGC at base.

WILL between 20-30

Then I max DEX as much as possible.

As for abilities, I prefer Aim, Defensive Stance, and Accuracy as modes; Shattering Shot, Scattershot, Critical Shot, and Arrow of Death as activated talents. For gear, Rapid Aim items are helpful.

[Snowdog65]

These are my general recommendations:

For my archers, I like to utilize Heavy armor and take advantage of the Master Archer perk. But this is not to everyone's taste. So plan your STR accordingly. For Light armor, STR 20 DAO/ 24 DAA; Medium - STR 34 DAO/ 44 DAA; and Heavy STR 38 DAO/ 48 DAA.
 

 

That is a excellent trade-off in DAO.  Some don't realize that Strength is just as good as Dex, for both attack/damage with bows in DAO, so you lose no bow attack/damage by boosting strength to meet heavy armor requirements. You just lose a bit of defense to the lost Dex, but maxing dex after that point you end up with very good Armor and very good defense.

 

But I must say, I find archery is second class in DAO:

 

Many of the talents of Warriors/Rogues are aimed at melee weapons. 

Bows don't get rune slots, lose a lot of attack/defense buffs.

Bow rate of fire is slow (compared to dual wielding).

If you turn on rapid shot bow talent, you can't get crits (if you turn on Momentum with dual wield you still get crits).

Frost weapon, Fire Weapon, and Telekenetic weapon buffs only work on Melee weapons.

Haste makes bows slower.

 

What I usually do is make all my Warriors/Rogues a minor Archer. Give them a Good bow and maybe a couple of talents.  That way you can start a fight at range, take out mages, or play keep away with tough bosses with everyone in the party, when you need too and switch back to more effective melee weapons when needed.

[capn233]

But I must say, I find archery is second class in DAO:

Yeah it is underwhelming in Origins. Maybe overbuffed in Awakenings.
 

Haste makes bows slower.

For people on pc it is worth getting bug fix mods, and this is one of the things they fix.

http://www.nexusmods...age/mods/4384/?

http://www.nexusmods...age/mods/1601/?

[Snowdog65]

Yeah it is underwhelming in Origins. Maybe overbuffed in Awakenings.
 

For people on pc it is worth getting bug fix mods, and this is one of the things they fix.

 

 

Yep, overpowered in Awakenings. Accuracy and Spirit Warrior both make Archers crazy powerful. I went the other way in Awakenings, everyone was primarily an Archer. It was silly fun, but so OP it felt like cheating.

 

I am torn on the fixes. I tried the rules fixpack but it felt like cheating.  It allows Momentum and Haste to stack making DW rogues crazy powerful. They attack  devastatingly fast, to the point of absurdity.  I went back to the vanilla game warts and all.

 

My only mods:

Auto loot.

Skip the Fade (not on first play).

Camp Chest

[capn233]

I am torn on the fixes. I tried the rules fixpack but it felt like cheating.  It allows Momentum and Haste to stack making DW rogues crazy powerful. They attack  devastatingly fast, to the point of absurdity.  I went back to the vanilla game warts and all.

 

My only mods:

Auto loot.

Skip the Fade (not on first play).

Camp Chest

 

I think if you go with all the available fixes it probably works out to about neutral.

 

Some of the fixes help the player, and some help the enemy.  As far as weapon speed goes, IIRC the total speed is just capped so it never goes negative, and a few of the things are individually fixed, but speed buff is never faster than -0.5.

 

Curse of Mortality fix really helps the enemy a lot more than the player since you can't regen through it at all.  Shield Wall fix helps the enemy with the 20% damage nerf actually applied.  Howl defense penalty.  Dual Weapon Expert dot is a noticeable buff for enemies as well.  Then you have gear and item checks that actually work right, and the no-poison stack is actually pretty significant nerf.

[Elhanan]

That is a excellent trade-off in DAO.  Some don't realize that Strength is just as good as Dex, for both attack/damage with bows in DAO, so you lose no bow attack/damage by boosting strength to meet heavy armor requirements. You just lose a bit of defense to the lost Dex, but maxing dex after that point you end up with very good Armor and very good defense.
 
But I must say, I find archery is second class in DAO:
 
Many of the talents of Warriors/Rogues are aimed at melee weapons. 
Bows don't get rune slots, lose a lot of attack/defense buffs.
Bow rate of fire is slow (compared to dual wielding).
If you turn on rapid shot bow talent, you can't get crits (if you turn on Momentum with dual wield you still get crits).
Frost weapon, Fire Weapon, and Telekenetic weapon buffs only work on Melee weapons.
Haste makes bows slower.
 
What I usually do is make all my Warriors/Rogues a minor Archer. Give them a Good bow and maybe a couple of talents.  That way you can start a fight at range, take out mages, or play keep away with tough bosses with everyone in the party, when you need too and switch back to more effective melee weapons when needed.

If one sticks with a pure archer perhaps, but I prefer a hybrid design with the focus on archer (set Ranged in Tactics).

Bows may not have runes, but I find they are not required at a distance (see Staves). And a hybrid archer can carry DW or Weapon & Shield, and is effective in both DAO & DAA.

DW may appear faster, but one has to get to the encounter first. The archer can kill and CC at range before that can occur. In DAA, Accuracy with a high DEX can get the kills even more swiftly, as I have used three archers and a Mage for the expansion several times; no active archer Talents required.

The bonus Magic is not needed; even sell my magical arrows instead of using them. And have only used Haste for a single game out of more than 20+ campaigns; many more now.

I recommend skipping the Arrow of Death line initially, using the CC line instead if talents are desired. Master Archer is a priority, then Accuracy, and then Shatter & Scatter Shot. Whether one likes the talents higher than Accuracy is a coin flip, as the Friendly Fire can be deadly.

[Snowdog65]

If one sticks with a pure archer perhaps, but I prefer a hybrid design with the focus on archer (set Ranged in Tactics).

DW may appear faster, but one has to get to the encounter first. The archer can kill and CC at range before that can occur. In DAA, Accuracy with a high DEX can get the kills even more swiftly, as I have used three archers and a Mage for the expansion several times; no active archer Talents required.

 

As I noted. I do some archery on all my Rogue/Warriors. So I don't have to get to the enemy. I start shooting at them at range with everyone, and when they close I switch to melee talents.

 

By the end of Origins my DW Rogue, had Master Archer and Scattershot in the archery tree filled in. Though I only gave rapid shot to Allistair, as he completely filled all shield talents most warrior talents and a lot of Templar/Champion talents.

 

Yes Archery is super powered in Awakenings. It is a total reversal of the situation in that expansion.

[Snowdog65]

I think if you go with all the available fixes it probably works out to about neutral.

 

Some of the fixes help the player, and some help the enemy.  As far as weapon speed goes, IIRC the total speed is just capped so it never goes negative, and a few of the things are individually fixed, but speed buff is never faster than -0.5.

 

Are you sure "never faster than -0.5 applies to both fix packs? 

 

Which one do you use?

 

I only tried the DARF and not Dains.

[Elhanan]

As I noted. I do some archery on all my Rogue/Warriors. So I don't have to get to the enemy. I start shooting at them at range with everyone, and when they close I switch to melee talents.
 
By the end of Origins my DW Rogue, had Master Archer and Scattershot in the archery tree filled in. Though I only gave rapid shot to Allistair, as he completely filled all shield talents most warrior talents and a lot of Templar/Champion talents.
 
Yes Archery is super powered in Awakenings. It is a total reversal of the situation in that expansion.

But even in DAO, an archer Hybrid can be devastating; not to mention so versatile for the game. I have tried both DW and Archer as priorities, and prefer the archer. This may be due to the frustration seen from Overwhelm and other special attacks, as the archer can remain further back, and not even three Hale runes are seemingly good enough to prevent them when in melee. But the Heavy armor does protect for both, so there is that.

[Snowdog65]

But even in DAO, an archer Hybrid can be devastating; not to mention so versatile for the game. I have tried both DW and Archer as priorities, and prefer the archer. This may be due to the frustration seen from Overwhelm and other special attacks, as the archer can remain further back, and not even three Hale runes are seemingly good enough to prevent them when in melee. But the Heavy armor does protect for both, so there is that.

 

I suppose if your goal is to have a tank take the brunt of attacks, you can stay out of the fray more.

 

But  from my experience, Overwhelm is more a problem when beset by a pack of werewolves and shadow versions, which get everyone, not just the tank.  Or spiders that drop on everyone. It isn't like enemies always start at a convenient distance, only in front of you. Very often you are swarmed from all directions, and then there is no real distance benefit.

 

Other than that, I don't see how your Archer Priority Hybrid, makes your Arrows that much more devastating that my DW Hybrid with  pretty much the same archery talents? I only skipped the AoS line, which is questionable.  I have same attack/damage bonus from Str/Dex.

 

You may get your talents a bit earlier, but how many of them are really that great? Archery is mostly just auto-attack.  As long as you have the Str/Dex for good attack/damage and the dex to equip the best bows, any rogue/warrior is going to do decent Bow damage.

 

In DAO it seems more like a secondary, than primary role. Everyone can do it, half decently anyway.

[Elhanan]

I suppose if your goal is to have a tank take the brunt of attacks, you can stay out of the fray more.
 
But  from my experience, Overwhelm is more a problem when beset by a pack of werewolves and shadow versions, which get everyone, not just the tank.  Or spiders that drop on everyone. It isn't like enemies always start at a convenient distance, only in front of you. Very often you are swarmed from all directions, and then there is no real distance benefit.
 
Other than that, I don't see how your Archer Priority Hybrid, makes your Arrows that much more devastating that my DW Hybrid with  pretty much the same archery talents? I only skipped the AoS line, which is questionable.  I have same attack/damage bonus from Str/Dex.
 
You may get your talents a bit earlier, but how many of them are really that great? Archery is mostly just auto-attack.  As long as you have the Str/Dex for good attack/damage and the dex to equip the best bows, any rogue/warrior is going to do decent Bow damage.
 
In DAO it seems more like a secondary, than primary role. Everyone can do it, half decently anyway.

We play the same game, so I already am aware of the opponents that can close quickly. Glyphs of Repulsion are effective at keeping some back if utilizing Companions, as are some other spells, grenades, etc. But staying at range and getting the occasional shot is better than being close and Overwhelmed, Grabbed, etc., especially if they are chained.

I have read somewhere that very high Defense may be helpful to avoid some of these Special Attacks, but I do know that high Dodge is spotty. And AFAIK, Evasion still has the animation glitch, so I use this for NPC's; not the Main.

And I personally avoid the MMO tactics of Tank, Aggro, etc; rarely use them unless a character needs to draw away a Boss from a distance.

[capn233]

Are you sure "never faster than -0.5 applies to both fix packs? 

 

Which one do you use?

 

I only tried the DARF and not Dains.

 

I thought it applied to rules and dain (current versions anyway).  Where rules says "Fixes the bug where if you drop below 0.5s weapon speed, it will reset to 1.0s" IIRC that was how they fixed it.  If lower than -.5 it just is set to -.5.

 

I think right now I have a mixture of dain and rules.  I had another one mixed in before, but I think dain's supplanted it.  Basically I run dain's for the things he fixed and rules for the other things.  I think I left out a few though, and don't run the tweaks.

[Snowdog65]

We play the same game, so I already am aware of the opponents that can close quickly. Glyphs of Repulsion are effective at keeping some back if utilizing Companions, as are some other spells, grenades, etc. But staying at range and getting the occasional shot is better than being close and Overwhelmed, Grabbed, etc., especially if they are chained.

I have read somewhere that very high Defense may be helpful to avoid some of these Special Attacks, but I do know that high Dodge is spotty. And AFAIK, Evasion still has the animation glitch, so I use this for NPC's; not the Main.

And I personally avoid the MMO tactics of Tank, Aggro, etc; rarely use them unless a character needs to draw away a Boss from a distance.

 

 

Possible dodge might work to avoid overwhelm, but AFAIK, overwhelm/grab are auto-hit, auto-effect: Unstoppable, overpowered.

 

IMO Dragon Age mechanics are largely a broken mess, even without all the day one bugs.

 

I detest MMO style aggro management. It makes no sense. Any creature intelligent enough to understand what a mage/rogue/warrior are, should attack them in that order of priority. Its what the player always does. Having aggro management, just makes dumb computer AI dumber on purpose.

 

Flashing a red cape and taunting can work on a bull, but shouldn't work on intelligent enemies.

[capn233]

Possible dodge might work to avoid overwhelm, but AFAIK, overwhelm/grab are auto-hit, auto-effect: Unstoppable, overpowered.

 

 

One trick for most critter level overwhelms is to just try to keep health >50% since that is their trigger.  Not the case for some things like Shadow Wolves of course.  When you can't prevent them, have to use a friendly spell.  I like Cone of Cold, Glyph of Repulsion (little better than Paralysis since that can trigger on the wrong enemy), Shield Bash, etc.

[Snowdog65]

I thought it applied to rules and dain (current versions anyway).  Where rules says "Fixes the bug where if you drop below 0.5s weapon speed, it will reset to 1.0s" IIRC that was how they fixed it.  If lower than -.5 it just is set to -.5.

 

I think right now I have a mixture of dain and rules.  I had another one mixed in before, but I think dain's supplanted it.  Basically I run dain's for the things he fixed and rules for the other things.  I think I left out a few though, and don't run the tweaks.

 

Looking at them both closely. I would say it still doesn't look balanced, but more favorable to the player. Things that it stops are obvious exploits I would never do anway (stacking weapon coatings).

 

As far as the speed fix. Dains is last updated in 2016, DARF in 2010. Dain says of the speed fix: "Most fixes change core scripts (bad for compatibility) - this caps it in character properties (.gda config file) before it reaches the engine". So it sounds like Dains might be doing the right thing. Questionable if DARF is.

 

I'll give Dains speed fix a shot. Warriors can already scrape in under the cap with Precise striking, momentum, Haste, so Dains shouldn't be so bad sticking to the cap for rogues with Haste/Momentum.  I think there is a high chance that DARF allows breaking through the speed cap.

 

Other things labled as fixes should be tweaks IMO. Like putting runes on weapons because people think they should be there, or swapping in the more powerful items from the console, like Fang.

 

The problem with fan fixes, they want fixes that deliver more damage, so that is mainly what you get.

 

Do you think if there was a console item that was less powerful, there would be a fix to swap in the less powerful item on the PC?

[Elhanan]

Possible dodge might work to avoid overwhelm, but AFAIK, overwhelm/grab are auto-hit, auto-effect: Unstoppable, overpowered.
 
IMO Dragon Age mechanics are largely a broken mess, even without all the day one bugs.
 
I detest MMO style aggro management. It makes no sense. Any creature intelligent enough to understand what a mage/rogue/warrior are, should attack them in that order of priority. Its what the player always does. Having aggro management, just makes dumb computer AI dumber on purpose.
 
Flashing a red cape and taunting can work on a bull, but shouldn't work on intelligent enemies.

Spells that Stun? or Knockdown? may be helpful, like Stone Fist, Shield Bash, etc in removing the Overwhelming foe. However, the problem arises when they travel in groups like Shadow wolves and the Children.

[capn233]

Looking at them both closely. I would say it still doesn't look balanced, but more favorable to the player. Things that it stops are obvious exploits I would never do anway (stacking weapon coatings).

 

As far as the speed fix. Dains is last updated in 2016, DARF in 2010. Dain says of the speed fix: "Most fixes change core scripts (bad for compatibility) - this caps it in character properties (.gda config file) before it reaches the engine". So it sounds like Dains might be doing the right thing. Questionable if DARF is.

 

I'll give Dains speed fix a shot. Warriors can already scrape in under the cap with Precise striking, momentum, Haste, so Dains shouldn't be so bad sticking to the cap for rogues with Haste/Momentum.  I think there is a high chance that DARF allows breaking through the speed cap.

 

Other things labled as fixes should be tweaks IMO. Like putting runes on weapons because people think they should be there, or swapping in the more powerful items from the console, like Fang.

 

The problem with fan fixes, they want fixes that deliver more damage, so that is mainly what you get.

 

Do you think if there was a console item that was less powerful, there would be a fix to swap in the less powerful item on the PC?

 

I had thought there is actually a post from dainbramage somewhere in this forum talking about the speed fix, and how they were actually doing the same thing.  I would need to find the post.

 

The good thing is all of the fix packs are modular for the most part so you can leave out the weapon ones if you want.

 

As far as pure fixes, I don't think there are really more that benefit the player when you consider that the player is only a single class for any run, so not all of the fixes apply, but you will find a mix of enemies that benefit from something in every run.  Emissaries and dual weapon enemies in particular, especially the latter since there is no Mana Clash to just erase them immediately.

[Snowdog65]

The good thing is all of the fix packs are modular for the most part so you can leave out the weapon ones if you want.

 

As far as pure fixes, I don't think there are really more that benefit the player when you consider that the player is only a single class for any run, so not all of the fixes apply, but you will find a mix of enemies that benefit from something in every run.  Emissaries and dual weapon enemies in particular, especially the latter since there is no Mana Clash to just erase them immediately.

 

What? Do the fixes remove Mana Clash?

 

Also the players team includes other classes, so it isn't just affecting one class unless you are playing solo.

 

The big one for me is haste. With the fixes you can turn it on and benefit all party members. Without fixes it is unusable (Slows DW, Bows and Staffs IIRC).  To actually have usable haste spell is a huge change in the combat balance of the game.

 

Also I doubt the enemy uses haste either way, so they don't benefit from the fixes.

 

The haste/weapon speed/aiming bugs are some of the most screwed up in the game, if you leave those out why bother, you may as well run vanilla, which is what I was doing. Most of the other fixes are rather minor in comparison. The whole reason you brought them up was because of the aiming/haste bug with bows.

 

I tried Dains, and it does seem to be about the same. So I am not sure what Dains brings to the table. Almost all the extra fixes and the aim fixes are all in DARF, along with the speed fixes.

[Nezhaa]

thanks everyone on the feedback i am going to try this stuff out.

[capn233]

What? Do the fixes remove Mana Clash?

 

No, I was talking about you can't use Mana Clash on enemy rogues, who benefit a lot from the Dual Weapon Expert fix.

[SherryGold]

One trick for most critter level overwhelms is to just try to keep health >50% since that is their trigger.  Not the case for some things like Shadow Wolves of course.  When you can't prevent them, have to use a friendly spell.  I like Cone of Cold, Glyph of Repulsion (little better than Paralysis since that can trigger on the wrong enemy), Shield Bash, etc.

I have seen Morrigan being overwhelmed by Marbari while trying to change into a bear. I wanted to know whether shapeshifting is any good and well, the trouble is it takes too long apart from the fact that party buff she provides goes as well (one of the reason I favor waking nightmare to mass paralysis, though Wynne will get there eventually). Anyway, maybe the trigger point is also to cast a spell that takes a while as well? The shadow wolves are a pain. I actually value Shale more than a mage when dealing with werewolves. He can taunt as much as he likes without being overwhelmed and the stone heart mode is just perfect for the job.

[SherryGold]

I had thought there is actually a post from dainbramage somewhere in this forum talking about the speed fix, and how they were actually doing the same thing.  I would need to find the post.

 

The good thing is all of the fix packs are modular for the most part so you can leave out the weapon ones if you want.

 

As far as pure fixes, I don't think there are really more that benefit the player when you consider that the player is only a single class for any run, so not all of the fixes apply, but you will find a mix of enemies that benefit from something in every run.  Emissaries and dual weapon enemies in particular, especially the latter since there is no Mana Clash to just erase them immediately.

 

Thanks for bringing the mod to my attention. The speed fix is just great.And I had no idea that the air of insolence from rally was responsible for that annoying sound which interferes with stealth. Two problems solved at once.