130 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

It's awful that individual employees no longer felt like they could come here. But that doesn't waive Bioware' responsibility of these forums, and they should have been able to better manage before it got to this point of no return.

It's been quite awhile since they've had a Community Manager. IIRC, Chris Priestly (?) left quite some time ago and was replaced by Jessica Merizan (?), who actually didn't stay in that position for very long. We don't really have much insight wrt how either of those individuals felt about the role, or why they left.

The thing about open forums like this is there is, I think, a certain amount of legal responsibility the sponsor owns. You can't, for example, have terrorists or drug dealers using your PM system to communicate about their nefarious plans. You can be subpoenaed for user registration data, PM text, etc., and have to deal with a lot of legal stuff behind the scenes. Different countries also have different standards for what is acceptable, and... well, there just more to a major company sponsoring a forum than I think most of us would realize.

I also think that in the era of Anita and Gamergate, PR for game developers has become a whole new nightmare (as if it were ever easy). Not that BioWare has ever shied away from controversy - they have historically been quite progressive in terms of social issues.

I do think the general tone here is different from what we see in other forums discussing these games - and it's because people expect that this is *the* place to make their complaints. Other forums can have a much more upbeat, positive tone, because people approach them with the idea they are communicating with other fans rather than the producer.

But - you're right. The impending forum closure along with their outright neglect of it for so long certainly isn't going to endear them to existing long-term fans.

[BansheeOwnage]

Hopefully it's not a reflection of the financial state of any upcoming games or Bioware as a company. But my tinfoil theory is that Bio is well aware how much of their vocal and/or loyal fanbase is going to feel alienated by this decision; this could be a subtle method of trying to reduce the amount of vocal customers who would complain about the direction new games are headed. Based on the Twitter poll some weeks back asking if people would be into a strategy DA game, the increasing focus on multiplayer and open world single player, I wouldn't be surprised if all new Bioware games will be drastically different from the ones we know. So closing the forums is an effort to lose the fanbase who primarily want to play single player RPGs and focus on the fabled wider audience of average gamers.

This thought crossed my mind, too, that they want to basically shut their veteran players up. I don't think I have to explain why that's bad.

 

Although BioWare has historically been really good about accepting feedback, there's a limit to how much of that kind of manure a human being can wade through and still get up and go to work every day. I wasn't at all surprised about the recent comments about employees needing therapy after ME3's reception - I frankly expected that would be the case.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Bioware historically accepting feedback well. Ha, I think I needed therapy after ME3... Not that I got any    /CrazyBanshee

 

One theory is that Bioware knows that a vocal contingent of fans on these boards are the perpetual "Bioware is dead to me because they changed things in their new game" folks that never seem to go away.

Thus, they want to wipe the slate clean as they launch the next wave of products, maybe quietly creating new forums for new fans to discover after the release of MEA.

I've also wondered if they would recreate forums for ME:A, but then what was really the point of this? The DA forums are really inconsequential during this between-release lull, vitriol-wise. Wouldn't it have been easier to split the DA/ME forums into two websites, or something? And surely they know that the ME forums are worse than the DA forums in more ways than one, unfortunately.

 

 

Perhaps leaving the forums up as read only would still serve to immortalize all previous negativity toward Bioware and they want to start over. But it does seem to be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and intentionally trying to drop older fans for a new customer base.

Not like they've ever done that before, right?

[BansheeOwnage]

I do think the general tone here is different from what we see in other forums discussing these games - and it's because people expect that this is *the* place to make their complaints. Other forums can have a much more upbeat, positive tone, because people approach them with the idea they are communicating with other fans rather than the producer.

I'm still flabbergasted that we can have the exact opposite experience from seeing the same things.

[Pasquale1234]

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Bioware historically accepting feedback well. Ha, I think I needed therapy after ME3... Not that I got any    /CrazyBanshee

That's fine. I've often heard it suggested that they overcompensate for things that are universally (or mostly) panned - like going from the heavily re-used levels of DA2 to multiple huge areas in DAI.

I'm still flabbergasted that we can have the exact opposite experience from seeing the same things.

Or maybe we've looked at different parts / different forums.

[Heimdall]

I've also wondered if they would recreate forums for MEA, but then what was really the point of this? The DA forums are really inconsequential during this between-release lull. Wouldn't it have been easier to split the DA/ME forums into two websites, or something? And surely they know that the ME forums are worse than the DA forums in more ways than one, unfortunately.

I think the point would be to emphasize what MEA seems to be about, a fresh start rather than a real continuation. I think they hope the forum would be found by new fans hoping to discuss MEA for itself rather than constantly comparing it to the trilogy. They want people talking about Bioware now rather than Bioware in "ye olden days".

And I think they hope the forum less gap will lead some of the more "toxic" personalities to drop off rather than simply transfer to the new forum.

All assuming they would even want a new forum.

EDIT: And the more I think about it, the more I sympathize with this desire for a less backward looking audience, I can't count the number of times I've groaned at the sight of yet another thread clamoring to bring the Warden back...

[Tidus]

Heimdall,You missed the point-that company listen to their customers about that crappy motor..BW should learn from that lesson and listen to their customer's concerns and improve their games--unless the wanted improvements is to far fetch..

[Heimdall]

Heimdall,You missed the point-that company listen to their customers about that crappy motor..BW should learn from that lesson and listen to their customer's concerns and improve their games--unless wanted improvements is to far fetch..

They should listen, but customer concerns in this case are far more subjective than the case of the motor and Bioware has many often contradictory voices telling them things all at once. Not every concern will be addressed, not every concern can be addressed.

[TheAtomicSurvivor]

They should listen, but customer concerns in this case are far more subjective than the case of the motor and Bioware has many often contradictory voices telling them things all at once. Not every concern will be addressed, not every concern can be addressed.

 

Which is true, but then the fans need to come to compromise. I have always been a firm believer that compromise is always better than arguments. Not one side is better than the other and not one side is more validated than the other. TBH, I do not like Action RPGs, I like narrative, slow paced combat. But the people who liked Mass Effect and Dragon Age 2 like Action RPGs.

 

Dragon Age Inquisition I think, all my opinion, was the perfect balance between giving Dragon Age Origins fans what they wanted, and what Dragon Age 2 fans wanted.

 

As a fan of their games, I am well aware and understand limits of technology and also that they have to cater to different taste, but there's always some compromise in the matter.

 

It's what Bioware and what Bioware fans are willing to accept, and what they aren't.

 

You can still disagree with someone, but still respect them as an individual. Just as you can agree with someone and disrespect them. But you also can not agree with an idea, but be willing to put aside what you want and compromise.

 

Really it comes down in the middle.

 

I'd like a more narrative focus, but I think Dragon Age Inquisition balances that out a bit. If DAI came out right after Origins I would have been happy with it. But it's because Bioware came out with the Sequel That Shall not be named, Bioware has part to blame in this division.

 

However, as fans, we need to come to compromise and not bicker.

 

And Bioware does need to be able to listen and take criticism, no matter the outcome.

 

But then when it comes to making the game and figuring whose concerns are more than other, I always find the solution lies somewhere in the middle. 

[vbibbi]

It's been quite awhile since they've had a Community Manager. IIRC, Chris Priestly (?) left quite some time ago and was replaced by Jessica Merizan (?), who actually didn't stay in that position for very long. We don't really have much insight wrt how either of those individuals felt about the role, or why they left.

The thing about open forums like this is there is, I think, a certain amount of legal responsibility the sponsor owns. You can't, for example, have terrorists or drug dealers using your PM system to communicate about their nefarious plans. You can be subpoenaed for user registration data, PM text, etc., and have to deal with a lot of legal stuff behind the scenes. Different countries also have different standards for what is acceptable, and... well, there just more to a major company sponsoring a forum than I think most of us would realize.

I also think that in the era of Anita and Gamergate, PR for game developers has become a whole new nightmare (as if it were ever easy). Not that BioWare has ever shied away from controversy - they have historically been quite progressive in terms of social issues.

I do think the general tone here is different from what we see in other forums discussing these games - and it's because people expect that this is *the* place to make their complaints. Other forums can have a much more upbeat, positive tone, because people approach them with the idea they are communicating with other fans rather than the producer.

But - you're right. The impending forum closure along with their outright neglect of it for so long certainly isn't going to endear them to existing long-term fans.

 

All right, I'm actually more bummed because my main narcotics contacts were here

 

I do see what you're saying about liability and such. And it's a strong argument for not keeping the forums open. But it still doesn't sufficiently address for me why not just keep the forums locked but legible? It might be spitting into the ocean, but they could possibly recoup some goodwill if they spent effort archiving all of the helpful threads about character builds, codex location lists, easter eggs, bug fixes, etc. that couldn't possibly contain negative references to Bioware. The attitude I see from Bioware now is purely business with no consideration for the fan community. If they no longer want to come to these boards and interact with customers, that's their right. But in my opinion, if they want to distance themselves from their positive fans as well as the negative ones, why are they still working in game development, let alone Bioware? I thought the employees who worked for this company were passionate about the products they made and the shared excitement for their work with their customers. Take that away and they're just another entertainment corporation producing content to get microtransactions.

 

Bioware as a studio might stay alive for years, but my doomsaying follows that YouTube vid going around: the heart and soul of the original Bioware will be gone and it will be the same company in name only.

 

This thought crossed my mind, too, that they want to basically shut their veteran players up. I don't think I have to explain why that's bad.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you about Bioware historically accepting feedback well. Ha, I think I needed therapy after ME3... Not that I got any    /CrazyBanshee

 

I've also wondered if they would recreate forums for MEA, but then what was really the point of this? The DA forums are really inconsequential during this between-release lull. Wouldn't it have been easier to split the DA/ME forums into two websites, or something? And surely they know that the ME forums are worse than the DA forums in more ways than one, unfortunately.

 

Not like they've ever done that before, right?

 

 

I think the point would be to emphasize what MEA seems to be about, a fresh start rather than a real continuation. I think they hope the forum would be found by new fans hoping to discuss MEA for itself rather than constantly comparing it to the trilogy. They want people talking about Bioware now rather than Bioware in "ye olden days".

And I think they hope the forum less gap will lead some of the more "toxic" personalities to drop off rather than simply transfer to the new forum.

All assuming they would even want a new forum.

EDIT: And the more I think about it, the more I sympathize with this desire for a less backward looking audience, I can't count the number of times I've groaned at the sight of yet another thread clamoring to bring the Warden back...

 

This all makes sense from a business perspective, at least in the short term. I'm sure Bio is expecting that the majority of fans here will moan for a while but still suck it up and preorder or buy on day one. Could be, no way of knowing until that day. But they're steadily losing goodwill and that could hurt in the long run. I really don't think that the new audiences they're going after will be dedicated fans. At best they'll play MP a lot and rack up some microtransactions that way.

 

If I were one of the creative types working at Bioware, I would be pretty heartbroken at the direction the company is headed. I spend way too much time and stress creating this game, and now the only feedback or discussion I can expect is a 140 character Twitter response? Even the asinine "bring back the Warden" threads showed that a stubborn group of fans really connected with that PC and enjoyed DAO.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

DAI must have sold a little well because the game of the year edition was made.

 

DA2 didn't get an ultimate edition because retailers weren't willing to have one (probably because sales were so low). At least retails took DAI GOTY edition openly.

[Pasquale1234]

All right, I'm actually more bummed because my main narcotics contacts were here
 
I do see what you're saying about liability and such. And it's a strong argument for not keeping the forums open. But it still doesn't sufficiently address for me why not just keep the forums locked but legible?

Maybe they think it would raise continual questions about the closure from people who aren't around now but would visit in the future?

In any case, as the reality of this forum closure starts to sink in, I'm getting fairly bummed. I'm starting to realize just how much this forum has contributed to not only my enjoyment of the games overall, but also my understanding of some of the nuances contained therein. I was just poking through the old favorite lines thread that recently resurfaced, and am reminded of all of the content I'm not likely to see in a typical playthrough, and would not even know about without these forums.

I guess I can only hope that the other replacement forum(s) do well, and I can continue to get my fix of DA & ME discussion there. The idea of starting a new game (like MEA) without an associated forum just doesn't sound like nearly as much fun as diving into a new game with a forum full of other excited fans.

[Heimdall]

This all makes sense from a business perspective, at least in the short term. I'm sure Bio is expecting that the majority of fans here will moan for a while but still suck it up and preorder or buy on day one. Could be, no way of knowing until that day. But they're steadily losing goodwill and that could hurt in the long run. I really don't think that the new audiences they're going after will be dedicated fans. At best they'll play MP a lot and rack up some microtransactions that way.

If I were one of the creative types working at Bioware, I would be pretty heartbroken at the direction the company is headed. I spend way too much time and stress creating this game, and now the only feedback or discussion I can expect is a 140 character Twitter response? Even the asinine "bring back the Warden" threads showed that a stubborn group of fans really connected with that PC and enjoyed DAO.

I don't think they're losing as much goodwill as you think. This perspective is easily lost here, but we on these forums represent only a fraction of the consumer base. We may represent some of the most passionate and dedicated members of the fanbase, but that isn't always a plus. Sure, those posters might be dedicated to DAO, but that means they're constantly agitating for the recreation of a game over half a decade old and not open to new ideas. Some of those people don't even buy new Bioware games anymore, they just stay around to complain about how the company is supposedly on its last legs even after a successful release. It's people like this that led to the creatives at Bioware not visiting the forums anymore (They haven't been here aside from a handful for some time), because they always encountered those who raged without end that Bioware hasn't been remaking the same game for ten years, and not enough of the more open minded. Besides, it's not like they can't more verbose reviews than 140 characters around the net if they go looking.

[vbibbi]

I don't think they're losing as much goodwill as you think. This perspective is easily lost here, but we on these forums represent only a fraction of the consumer base. We may represent some of the most passionate and dedicated members of the fanbase, but that isn't always a plus. Sure, those posters might be dedicated to DAO, but that means they're constantly agitating for the recreation of a game over half a decade old and not open to new ideas. Some of those people don't even buy new Bioware games anymore, they just stay around to complain about how the company is supposedly on its last legs even after a successful release. It's people like this that led to the creatives at Bioware not visiting the forums anymore (They haven't been here aside from a handful for some time), because they always encountered those who raged without end that Bioware hasn't been remaking the same game for ten years, and not enough of the more open minded. Besides, it's not like they can't more verbose reviews than 140 characters around the net if they go looking.

 

Perhaps. It really is hard to say. IMO the type of consumer who considers "goodwill" as a commodity to provide to companies are the smaller but more vocal types. The casual gamer goes to Gamestop, picks up the latest release every few months when they're bored of their current games, and discard their new games just as easily. They don't really care who the developer is or what kind of history the company has with consumers. They will play the game and either like it or drop it.

 

But I find it highly unlikely that the majority of those types of consumers, no matter how good a game may be, will play the game to completion, let alone more than once, and will not still be playing the game by the time new story DLC comes out. My impression is that it's the DLC and MP microtransactions which bring in a substantial portion of game revenue. MEAMP is a toss up, since ME3MP did extremely well but DAIMP was not very successful. So if MEAMP is amazing, Bioware can rake in money by catering the game to more casual gamers who will play MP mode endlessly, even if few people actually play the SP mode.

 

If MEAMP is more on DAIMP's level, Bio will need the SP experience to be enough to draw people in and play until the DLCs come out. And those consumers willing to discuss their fourth playthrough while anticipating the new DLC release are the ones who are feeling burnt right now. And a lot of them might not even continue following the game news since their primary source of information is being disbanded.

[mmoblitz]

With a new story/characters for MEA, getting rid of these forum, which is about past games, might be one way to keep people from focusing on older games.  If anyone plays the any of the sims games, you will see how different TS 4 if compared to TS 3.  The backlash was and still is bad.  Maxis went for a whole new audience with a totally different game.  Ditching the fan base that made the game popular.

 

It could be Bioware may be planning on doing something similar and removing the forums may be a preemptive move to help alleviate some of the problems that Maxis has now.  Their boards are still up and it's pretty much nothing but a place for forum pvp. Many companies under the EA umbrella are changing their games and moving to newer audiences that tolerate microtransactions in their games and don't mind games being chopped up so they can sell you parts later as DLC.  Once you start doing that, the games go from being designed around a story and being fun to games that are designed to make you want to buy that item or need that DLC because the game feels incomplete without it.

[BansheeOwnage]

I think the point would be to emphasize what MEA seems to be about, a fresh start rather than a real continuation. I think they hope the forum would be found by new fans hoping to discuss MEA for itself rather than constantly comparing it to the trilogy. They want people talking about Bioware now rather than Bioware in "ye olden days".

If that is what they'll do, I'm not sure it'll work the way they want. ME:A is still the fourth entry in a series, no matter how you slice it. That means a large chunk of sales are going to be generated by old fans. I just don't understand why rebooting the forums would suddenly mean:

 

1. Many/most of the old fans wouldn't return.

 

2. They wouldn't talk about or compare ME:A to previous games.

 

I think even newbies will have the ME3 ending in their minds. It was all over the internet back in the day, regardless of if you'd played. Just thinking outloud.

[Heimdall]

If that is what they'll do, I'm not sure it'll work the way they want. ME:A is still the fourth entry in a series, no matter how you slice it. That means a large chunk of sales are going to be generated by old fans. I just don't understand why rebooting the forums would suddenly mean:
 
1. Many/most of The old fans wouldn't return.
 
2. They wouldn't talk about or compare ME:A to previous games.
 
I think even newbies will have the ME3 ending in their minds. It was all over the internet back in the day, regardless of if you'd played. Just thinking outloud.

It may prove a futile effort, but I think Bioware has grown very tired of that subsection of fans here that constantly groans about their new games in favor of the ones they made years ago.

[Al Foley]

It may prove a futile effort, but I think Bioware has grown very tired of that subsection of fans here that constantly groans about their new games in favor of the ones they made years ago.

I know I have.

[Wulfram]

The odd thing is, I think these forums are much more positive about Dragon Age Inquisition than most places people talk about gaming. I mean I can be pretty critical here, but in other places I'm basically forced into fanboy mode whenever DAI is brought up because there'll be a ton of people just talking about how much it sucks.

(There's some variation, though. These forums were probably more hostile towards the first 2 DAI DLC, but much more positive about the last. Which perhaps isn't all that surprising, since Trespasser was heavy on the fanservice)

Mass Effect is more complex, there's quite a lot of goodwill towards the series out there. But the conversation still inevitably ends up being about how much the ending sucked.

[Tidus]

Maybe people (their customers) complain because the games went down hill after DA:O. I paid good money for DA:2 and can't stay interested in it yet,I have enjoyed every Final Fantasy game I own and that's just about the whole series. DA:I started as a sleeper and after stumbling through my first 2-3 play throughs  I really enjoy it and on game 18 now and yes,this will be the last for awhile.I  already put DA:O aside.

 

I will be starting Final Fantasy 1 on my PS1 and Baldur's Gate "Dark Alliance"  on my PS2 after my current game of DA:I.

[vbibbi]

It may prove a futile effort, but I think Bioware has grown very tired of that subsection of fans here that constantly groans about their new games in favor of the ones they made years ago.

 

Which is fair enough. But their response doesn't make sense. Tired of complaints? Let's silence the complains rather than address them. That won't make the complainers more upset.

 

If Bioware were just up front with us or more honest in their communications, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to close the forums. I still remember the PR announcement for dropping old gen consoles for future DAI DLC. It started out "Good news!" and then poorly explained how not having new DLC for those systems was a good thing.

 

I get that it was a business decision, it made sense for them. But they could have had a genuine human attitude instead of corporate PR bs speech. It wouldn't have felt so harsh if they had said that they were sorry for dropping the older systems or went into some explanation of how if the old consoles had been included, future DLC would have suffered in quality. Still not a nice pill to swallow but at least it would feel like Bioware was engaging the community and not just nailing a formal proclamation on the door and then closing that door behind them.

[Al Foley]

Which is fair enough. But their response doesn't make sense. Tired of complaints? Let's silence the complains rather than address them. That won't make the complainers more upset.

 

If Bioware were just up front with us or more honest in their communications, maybe they wouldn't feel the need to close the forums. I still remember the PR announcement for dropping old gen consoles for future DAI DLC. It started out "Good news!" and then poorly explained how not having new DLC for those systems was a good thing.

 

I get that it was a business decision, it made sense for them. But they could have had a genuine human attitude instead of corporate PR bs speech. It wouldn't have felt so harsh if they had said that they were sorry for dropping the older systems or went into some explanation of how if the old consoles had been included, future DLC would have suffered in quality. Still not a nice pill to swallow but at least it would feel like Bioware was engaging the community and not just nailing a formal proclamation on the door and then closing that door behind them.

It was good news.  And I seem to remember them doing exactly that.  Or the explanation was so simple they did not feel the need to go into it. 

[MissDragon]

Well, if they do shut down the forums I am sure there will be other places we can chat about DA games

 

Or....could this be the end of DA itself. Makes you wonder.

[Pasquale1234]

Which is fair enough. But their response doesn't make sense. Tired of complaints? Let's silence the complains rather than address them. That won't make the complainers more upset.

We've moved on. Now it's your turn.

I suspect that'd go over about as well as a lead zeppelin.

(Great band. Bad dirigible.)

[vbibbi]

It was good news.  And I seem to remember them doing exactly that.  Or the explanation was so simple they did not feel the need to go into it. 

 

I like you as a person from the limited interactions I've had with you, but I cannot in anyway agree with this or pretend not to be a little angry at your attitude. I don't want to go back to the old gen discussion as everything has been said on that topic and nothing new can come of it. But suffice to say when the company tells the people who bought the game on the old gen, told us that other than graphics nothing would be different, and then told us if we want to experience final content for the game we need to buy a new system, buy the game again with no discount, and then buy the DLC, and call it "good news," it's a slap in the face. Nowhere in their announcement was there any sense that it was a tough decision or they acknowledge that it would be frustrating to old gen players.

 

And the attitude of people who support this has generally been "good! old gen has held back my experience!" when in fact the game was originally intended to be for old gen when development started. It's a very selfish attitude and one of victim blaming, where people tell old gen users that it was their fault that they didn't get features in their current gen game.

 

No, it was Bioware tying to get revenue across five systems and capitalize on the market when current gen took off as quickly as it did. They had extra development time, they could have made the decision prior to release to drop the PS3 and Xbox360 and only make the game for current gen. They were the ones who decided to cut features so that they could sell the game to more customers, not the old gen users.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Well, if they do shut down the forums I am sure there will be other places we can chat about DA games

 

Or....could this be the end of DA itself. Makes you wonder.

I am nearly certain they intend to put out a new Dragon Age game. Trespasser makes a clear sequel hook that they know they can get us to bite on.