38 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Elves? No, these guy were crushed by humans.

 

Solas probably one of most powerful beings in Thedas.Still doesn't mean much, this ain't dragon ball or even naruto level of power.Darkspawn horde still would stomp him.

 

Flemeth was defeated by the warden so while she is powerful i doubt she was match for archdemon, not to mention she said that even she wouldn't stood a chance against darkspawn horde.

 

 

Mind you, the elves were already taken down a few notches by Solas himself, not the humans. 

 

As for the darkspawn, Solas can turn groups of people to stone, seemingly with little effort. He could no doubt do the same to a horde of darkspawn. 

[Dai Grepher]

Mind you, the elves were already taken down a few notches by Solas himself, not the humans.

As for the darkspawn, Solas can turn groups of people to stone, seemingly with little effort. He could no doubt do the same to a horde of darkspawn.

That's an assumption. So far we've only seen him use this on Qunari. For all we know it's a vulnerability within the Qunari race. We also don't know how rapidly he can call on the ability. Some Qunari were burned, some were petrified, some were electrocuted. The Qunari at the end of the game attacked at different times judging by their positioning. Which means he had to petrify them one at a time. The Qunari had limited numbers, and Solas had a home-field advantage. Would Solas be able to take on endless waves of Darkspawn, some of which have unique magical abilities of their own?

[reignman215]

Flemeth was but a shadow of Mythal at the height of her power.    It would appear that she led the elves in a conquest of at least one Titan.   That was some seriously awesome power.   Corypheus was simply a powered up (by red lyrium) ancient Magister who had discovered the secret of effective immortality.  At the time he assaulted the Golden/Black City Tevinter was already on the decline and the priesthood were losing their grip; that is why they went searching for more power.

 

However, it took ancient Tevinter at the height of their power a full 6 years of fighting against the settlement in Arlathan Forest and they were still at stale mate, which is why someone (either them or the elves in the city) decided to resolve matters by sinking it into the ground.    That settlement was but a shadow of an elven city at the height of their power, probably simply a more inhabited version of the Temple of Mythal, with a few more magic users.    I doubt it was the true Arlathan although it may have been a remnant of it.   Nevertheless it is clear that even at the height of its power Tevinter didn't come anywhere near approaching the magic of the Evanuris.       This is why if Solas succeeds in releasing them; even in a weakened state they are likely to be very bad news (assuming of course everyone hasn't simply been fried in the process).

 

Mind you I don't think the Evanuris were really what you would call elves.   In fact Flemeth called Mythal the wisp of an ancient being not the wisp of an ancient elf.    Despite what Solas told his supporters, I don't feel they were no different to the ordinary elves pre-Veil.  They were not simply very powerful mages.   They had developed far beyond that definition, which is why the elves held them in such reverence.     

 

My own theory is that they began as immensely powerful nature spirits (light, water, earth, fire, airx2 and the creative impulse itself, June), that were called into form and consciousness by a force or forces unknown, whose nature was to create, guide and teach (which is what the Dalish lore recalls) but owing to a war (possibly with the Titans), their nature was warped so that they now felt compelled to rule, command and destroy, drawing on the violent side of nature.   They powered up with lyrium and became the god tyrants of Trespasser.    Think of the Lady of the Forest in DAO but immensely more powerful, as even she might have been pre-Veil.    

 

 

I like your theory but I prefer a more cynical view of things:

Solas is not all powerful or all knowing. In fact, he's barely any better than a common mage when he wakes up from his slumber. He's very vulnerable and in the dark future, he can even become corrupted and enslaved by Corypheus along with everyone else. Cory could have obliterated him in a heartbeat.

 

At the height of his power, Solas may have become revered as a god, but he still was just an elf. A very powerful elf, but an elf nonetheless. He wasn't a different species or a different kind of creature. So were Mythal, Elgar'Nan and all the other Evanuris. They were elves who became extremely adept at magic and manipulating reality, hence their ascent to godhood.  You could argue they became something more than elves, but they definitely started off as elves.

 

Before the fall of Arlathan, all elves had magic and all elves were immortal, so everyone got a fair shot at "godhood". At least until the Evanuris climbed to the top of the food-chain and started holding everyone else down.

 

The Evanuris were the ones who created this creepy cult of personality and power hierarchy to begin with, where a small clique became the elite and eventually, gods, while everyone else was being kept down. They wanted to be worshiped so they created a social order where this was possible. That doesn't make them not-elves though.

 Great points! I agree and believe you both are correct.

 

Solas does mention something about spirit beings in the fade who would often communicate with elves as the start of it all, most likely due to their natural affinity for magic.

 

Yet Solas also mentions that he was indeed "Solas" before he became Fen'Harel.

 

So It's hard to say who came first, the elves or the spirits? Or if Solas and Flemmeth think of themselves more as spirits or as elves or elven gods.

 

Maybe the elves are the physical embodiment of the spirits?

 

One thing is clear, is that they consider the Elven part a very important part of their identity, even Flemmeth.

[reignman215]

No, the elvhen just had a head start. Not that it helped them in the end. It's possible that humans can achieve the same heights, given enough time and the opportunity to interact with the Fade. The Baroness comes to mind. She had only one small village under her, and roughly 10 years or so to practice her bloodmagic. And in that time she was able to pull all the villagers' souls into the Fade with her, and then after being in the Fade for about 35 years she was able to leave the Fade as a spirit and manifest in the real world. She also noticed the ancient magical energies that flowed into the Blackmarsh from the Fade. Who knows what humans could learn and accomplish if they had the same opportunities the elvhen had with the Fade?

http://dragonage.wik...roness's_Secret

 

 

That's an assumption. So far we've only seen him use this on Qunari. For all we know it's a vulnerability within the Qunari race. We also don't know how rapidly he can call on the ability. Some Qunari were burned, some were petrified, some were electrocuted. The Qunari at the end of the game attacked at different times judging by their positioning. Which means he had to petrify them one at a time. The Qunari had limited numbers, and Solas had a home-field advantage. Would Solas be able to take on endless waves of Darkspawn, some of which have unique magical abilities of their own?

 

Lol cmon man, it's clearly more than just a "head start" 

 

The ancient elves basically toy with magic and nature, they probably even farted magic.

 

It's implied that they tamed the planet itself, you know with pwning the Titans and everything.

 

Tevinter in it's prime couldn't achieve a fraction of what the Ancient elves could. They even struggled for 6 years against a city that was barely a shell of its former self.

 

Arlathan at that point was already a dead city compared to its former self and had maybe a few elf guardians to fortify it, with maybe a tiny bit of magic contained within its walls from its past. 

 

Yet Tevinter basically had to resort to the big guns and use a shitload of blood magic to nuke them to win.     

[Dai Grepher]

The Elvhen created all their stuff with mere thought, and plenty of help from friendly spirits.

The humans on the other hand had to toil in the real world, either building things the hard way, or drawing on whatever little magic they could to affect the world.

Like trying to grow crops in a field as opposed to a desert. The elvhen benefited because of their location. Of course a race born into a magical region will be more magically advanced than a race born into the real world. That doesn't mean the race of the real world can't learn and one day become better at magic.

It could be argued that the elvhen were weaker in the real world than the humans, which turned out to be the case. So then why aren't humans considered more powerful? The reason why elves are behind in the real world is because humans had the head-start in that case.

[Gervaise]

Actually there seems to have been a lot of hints now that most of what helped Tevinter rise to power came from the elves.   Either stuff they found in ruins or from elven captives.  So without the elves it is unlikely the human nations would have advanced as quickly as they did.    The Core Rule Books suggests that it was elves who taught the Neromenians how to use lyrium and it was this that gave them a head start over their neighbours.     The lore of the Fog Warriors on Seheron suggests that their ancestors "learned at the feet of the elves".   Felassan says that the column glowed with runes "that the fools in Tevinter copied by rote like children tracing letters".  This latter column would seem to suggest that in a lot of cases the human mages simply came by their knowledge by trial and error and probably never fully understood it.  Had Solas not intervened, it is unlikely the humans would ever have been in a position to challenge the Evanuris.   As Imshael said, you "Always have to respect old elven magic."  

 

It wasn't just that the humans had a head start, raising the Veil did something profound to the elves, even the ones born pre-Veil.   Those born post Veil were handicapped by their isolation from the outside world, which I think was largely due to those born pre-Veil still controlling them.   We still don't know precisely what happened in the confrontation in Arlathan Forest but I doubt there were any pre-Veil elves among those captured by Tevinter.   Then the post-Veil elves became slaves to Tevinter who deliberately tried to eradicate all knowledge of their earlier culture.   Could this be because they feared what the elves might be capable of if they recovered it?   Considering that the majority of modern elves have only been free for a short time and even the Dalish have been living on the fringes of society, trying to piece together magical lore, they haven't done that badly.  They are certainly no further behind, say, the Avaar in what they can do with their magic.   

 

I find it interesting to see how magic developed among human communities like the Avaar and the Rivani, compared with the Neromenians.   The Avaar (who are descended from the original tribes in the south) have been around just as long as the Neromenians and yet their magic is far more limited and doesn't seem to have changed much in the succeeding few thousand years.    The Neromenian belief that their heroes were reborn as dragons seems very similar to the Avaar belief concerning Hakkon.   Both Avaar and Rivani have a different relationship with spirits that is in fact much closer to what the ancient elves seemed to have.  The only thing that seems to have made the difference between the humans in terms of magic is that the Neromenians had greater access to elven artefacts and actual elven teachers.   I do wonder if originally the elves that helped their rise to power did so willingly because they saw them as a way of challenging the remnant followers of the Evanuris.   Still, what gave the Neromenians their head start definitely came from the elves and that is what gave them their superiority in magic over their neighbours, that the descendants still benefit from today.

[Asdrubael Vect]

What about the Titans?

 

What about Titans and the dwarves being the practical literal children of the stone? The Titans shape the whole world itself.

Elgarnan machines what was work and after he have no use for them, was shut down by him and they was activated after Solas thing as blight spreads cos of Forgotten ones-Archdeamons

 

Solas use a Titan core-orb what is even showed on ancient pitrures where Mythal destroy one of the Titans and Solas pick his heart-core/orb

[Asdrubael Vect]

 

One can turn into a Dragon at whim and the other can turn anyone to stone!!!! i wonder what the other Elven gods can do!!!

 

It was many ancient elven champions who can turn themselfs into dragons and it is stated that dragon is elven suprime battle form as gift from Elgarnan

 

Archdeamons was inprison ancient elves-forgotten ones 

 

Their souls Mythal in Flemeth body was clean from blight

 

 

Turning into stone is not really a godlile power in DA universe, mages can do it to and you can see many of those peoples turned into stone since DAO(statue in Ferelden Circle, some pirates in Prosper castle in DA2), Solas just do it very quick, easily as without even look on the enemy

[Dai Grepher]

@Gervaise I never contested that the Neromenians claimed and learned from the fallen relics of the elvhen. My point is that location is what made the elvhen more powerful in terms of magic. They were born and raised in a magical realm, whereas the humans were not. The fact that humans learned from elvhen runes proves my point that humans have the potential to match the power of the elvhen given enough time and study. How the humans catch up is of no relevance. What matters is that the elvhen had a head-start, and now the humans are closing the gap. As for the failure of the elvhen to adapt to the real world, much of it was because they were too accustomed to the easy way of life, but it was mainly because they were too far behind in real world survival. The humans had the head-start on them in regard to real world survival. Otherwise, why didn't the elvhen use their own relics to set up kingdoms in the real world? It's possible they continued to war with each other even after the fall, but that just goes to show how infantile they were in the face of reality.

[Iakus]

Mind you, the elves were already taken down a few notches by Solas himself, not the humans. 

 

As for the darkspawn, Solas can turn groups of people to stone, seemingly with little effort. He could no doubt do the same to a horde of darkspawn. 

Yeah, jsut remember that once upon a time, dinosaurs ruled the world.

 

Now they're the pigeons pooping on your car 

[Asdrubael Vect]

@Gervaise I never contested that the Neromenians claimed and learned from the fallen relics of the elvhen. My point is that location is what made the elvhen more powerful in terms of magic. They were born and raised in a magical realm, whereas the humans were not. The fact that humans learned from elvhen runes proves my point that humans have the potential to match the power of the elvhen given enough time and study. How the humans catch up is of no relevance. What matters is that the elvhen had a head-start, and now the humans are closing the gap. As for the failure of the elvhen to adapt to the real world, much of it was because they were too accustomed to the easy way of life, but it was mainly because they were too far behind in real world survival. The humans had the head-start on them in regard to real world survival. Otherwise, why didn't the elvhen use their own relics to set up kingdoms in the real world? It's possible they continued to war with each other even after the fall, but that just goes to show how infantile they were in the face of reality.

human since ancient kingdoms of Tevinter just have inbreed with some ancient elves so they have magic in their blood and learn from them, and after from deamons as dragons and drink dragon blood, do blood magic sacrifices, and use too much lyrium....some was even physically mutated

 

they are steal knoledges, use magic steroids and elven artifacts, and kill elven mages as try as hard as they can erase elven magic knoledges

 

still they are not success

 

And Kossith as we can understand was Ancient Tevinter experiment with dragon blood

[fhs33721]

Yeah, jsut remember that once upon a time, dinosaurs ruled the world.

 

Now they're the pigeons pooping on your car 

Still sounds like the dinosaurs have the upper hand. When was the last time you managed to spoil anything for a pigeon?

[Aren]

 

 

Flemeth was defeated by the warden so while she is powerful i doubt she was match for archdemon, not to mention she said that even she wouldn't stood a chance against darkspawn horde.

Flemeth with her powers could easily avoid the horde and face directly the Archdemon not to mention that vs the warden she decided to not fly.

[Gervaise]

It is hard to see how the humans are closing the gap in magical knowledge since Tevinter is but a shadow of their former glory.   Leaving aside the lore breaking time travel, Tevinter have not really advanced at all since they conquered Arlathan Forest.    If you take the view that it was in fact the elves who sank the city and not Tevinter, that may have been to ensure they did not get their hands on whatever was there.   

 

Dorian had definitely seen pictures of the ancient Dreamers holding foci.   What probably happened is that either they never got them working or if they did, they used up their power in their rise to world dominance but having done so, they had nothing they could use to advance further.   It is said that many of the ancient structures in Tevinter are held together by magic.   Either they re-purposed old elven ruins or they achieved these structures using foci.   This is the whole thrust of the revelation by Abelas.   Tevinter pride themselves on their achievements but in fact they did very little on their own.   The knowledge for the construction of the great Juggernaut golems came from the dwarves.   Most of their magical expertise came from the elves.   Any other knowledge came from Old Gods.    The actual knowledge that came from human studies is actually very limited, which is why once the Old Gods stopped speaking to them, the decline began.    It was because things were already slipping that Corypheus and co made their audacious attempt on reaching the Golden City.

 

Tevinter has been in steady decline for hundreds of years and once they acknowledge that fact and that it wasn't their brilliance that led to their rise in the first place, may be they will be able to stop the rot and start to make actual progress.