79 réponses à ce sujet

[Fardreamer]

So everyone seems so appalled by the Warden's decision to use Blood Magic to summon an army of demons to sweep the deep roads and wipe out the Archdemons.  But I didn't get why that was.

 

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil.  As Dorian explains, it's just a source to make you magic stronger.  It allows you to be strong enough to bind demons.  It can be twisted for evil purposes, but it's not by itself evil. 

 

The Wardens thought they were all dying.  Their plan was to to sacrifice themselves before they died in an effort to wipe out the Blight.  So why is everyone so appalled that the non-magic users willingly sacrificed themselves to fuel the mage's Blood Magic.  It's a better plan than just launching an assault on the deep roads alone. 

 

I get that they were being manipulated into being bound by Corypheus, but if that weren't the case, the plan would have been a decent last ditch effort.

[German Soldier]

They were morons and i think the writers exaggerated to portray them at this level of lunacy.Demons are inherently malign creatures so i'm not sure why they thought it was possible to control an army of them let alone twist so many spirits in the process to convert them in demons.Basically they had no idea of what they were doing which is sadly the big flaw of this order.

[Asha'bellanar]

My complaint is not "ooh, blood magic" it was that the plan was so ludicrously STUPID. Sure they were afraid, but they didn't even bother to find out if Wardens all over Thedas were hearing the Calling. They just assumed that if the ones in the South all died THE WORLD WOULD END IN A BLIGHT. The entire plan was ridiculously stupid, and Clarel should have known better. Who thinks, "I know, let's kill most of our members and bind demons and go hunt down archdemons because some random Tevinter magister thinks it's a good idea"? Clarel, obviously. While I am loathe to agree with an arsehole like Livius Erimond, he was right when he called her a stupid ******.

 

I can get spur of the moment stupid decisions because you're afraid, but this was a plan that had been thought out and executed for months. It's not like the momentary panic that seizes you and makes you do dumb stuff (that happens to everyone). Those moments when you just have to say after, "Crap, I don't know why I did that, I wasn't able to think clearly." That makes sense. "I was scared, so I took the advice of a complete arsehole to murder half of my order and raise a demon army, and, oh, yeah, it took months of planning" doesn't make as much sense. It's stupidity, born of hubris, though started in fear.

 

Then again, there's a lot of "How can you be so freaking STUPID?!" going on in DA:I. Templars were being led by a demon (uh, wut?) as were the Seekers, the rebel mages had zero plan apart from "we rebel! yay, now we're free!", the Wardens, the Chantry with their "let's ignore the edicts of the previous Divine and denounce the one person who has any chance of saving the world", pretty much all of them. I don't know that I'd say Gaspard/Briala/Celene are necessarily stupid, but they are pig-headed, arrogant, and all in need of having their heads cracked together.

[Catilina]

If you're playing a sufficiently self-confident (non Andrastian, or moderate Andrastian) character, the blood magic is absolutely correct tool in the role play viewpoint, I think. Though in connection with the demons need to reduce to a minimum because they are not benign; This is a compromise solution. Not necessarily good, nor evil. (Magic is magic, not good or bad, only a tool, a weapon)  (I missed the different dialogue option, and a bigger weakness to the blood mage characters.)

 

But: In the Inquisition the Wardens completely lost control over themselves and have completely lost their sense of morality. The blood magic and the nice argument: "I will do it for a greater good" is a dangerous combination. The most dangerous part of this combination not the blood magic itself, rather the blind belief that any device can be used to a greater good. My opinion. And: donot forget: Clarel did not recognize the danger, because her mind's warning suppressed by Corypheus' false calling, and Erimond false advices, and Clare's excessive pride.

[PhroXenGold]

Wait, wait, blood magic is not evil because a Tevinter - you know the guys that nearly destroyed the world and now "only" rule over a slavocracy - says so? Yeah, I'd take that one with a pinch of salt.

[Catilina]

Wait, wait, blood magic is not evil because a Tevinter - you now the guys that nearly destroyed the world and now "only" rule over a slavocracy - says so? Yeah, I'd take that one with a pinch of salt.

The blood magic are dangerous, yes, and the blood mages aslo. No the blood magic create slavery, people did it. And also the people destroy the world, is not a magic school, I think.

[German Soldier]

My complaint is not "ooh, blood magic" it was that the plan was so ludicrously STUPID. Sure they were afraid, but they didn't even bother to find out if Wardens all over Thedas were hearing the Calling. They just assumed that if the ones in the South all died THE WORLD WOULD END IN A BLIGHT. The entire plan was ridiculously stupid, and Clarel should have known better. Who thinks, "I know, let's kill most of our members and bind demons and go hunt down archdemons because some random Tevinter magister thinks it's a good idea"? Clarel, obviously. While I am loathe to agree with an arsehole like Livius Erimond, he was right when he called her a stupid ******.
 
I can get spur of the moment stupid decisions because you're afraid, but this was a plan that had been thought out and executed for months. It's not like the momentary panic that seizes you and makes you do dumb stuff (that happens to everyone). Those moments when you just have to say after, "Crap, I don't know why I did that, I wasn't able to think clearly." That makes sense. "I was scared, so I took the advice of a complete arsehole to murder half of my order and raise a demon army, and, oh, yeah, it took months of planning" doesn't make as much sense. It's stupidity, bourne of hubris, though started in fear.
 
Then again, there's a lot of "How can you be so freaking STUPID?!" going on in DA:I. Templars were being led by a demon (uh, wut?) as were the Seekers, the rebel mages had zero plan apart from "we rebel! yay, now we're free!", the Wardens, the Chantry with their "let's ignore the edicts of the previous Divine and denounce the one person who has any chance of saving the world", pretty much all of them. I don't know that I'd say Gaspard/Briala/Celene are necessarily stupid, but they are pig-headed, arrogant, and all in need of having their heads cracked together.

Pretty much this they did not attempted to contact the others GW to properly understand the situation.
This is for me a form of bad writing but of course BioWare rule is to make every organization that is not in the player's hand to look stupid,in DAI the GW are not the only ones.

[Captain Wiseass]

You mean apart from all the murder?

[SgtSteel91]

You can sort of make this point during Ser Ruth's judgement, if you choose to send her back to the Wardens.

[thats1evildude]

The problem here is the Wardens' policy of "whatever means necessary to defeat the Blight." When you're willing to resort to using any weapon against the darkspawn, it also means you're less willing to look for alternatives.

Warden 1: This plan involves us murdering our comrades to summon demons. There has to be another way!
Warden 2: The Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn.
Warden 1: Well, OK then. Pass me a knife, will you?

This attitude is also what led Janeka to try and release Corypheus in the first place. Granted, she was being influenced by Corypheus, but it was still insane to think she could control an ancient darkspawn for whom an entire prison was crafted. But hey, Wardens do what they must, right?

[lynroy]

I was more appalled about the freakin' DEMON ARMY they were trying to summon. That was what was wrong to me.

[SgtSteel91]

The problem here is the Wardens' policy of "whatever means necessary to defeat the Blight." When you're willing to resort to using any weapon against the darkspawn, it also means you're also less willing to look for alternatives.

Warden 1: This plan involves us murdering our comrades to summon demons. There has to be another way!
Warden 2: The Wardens do whatever it takes to defeat the darkspawn.
Warden 1: Well, OK then. Pass me a knife, will you?

This attitude is also what led Janeka to try and release Corypheus in the first place. Granted, she was being influenced by Corypheus, but it was still insane to think she could control an ancient darkspawn for whom an entire prison was crafted. But hey, Wardens do what they must, right?

Could they really afford to look for alternatives when they though they were going to turn into Ghouls, leaveing the world to contend with the threat of two more Blights and no way to stop them?

[Inkvisiittori]

I wasn't concerned with their use of blood magic. It was their insane plan to march into the Deep Roads to find & kill the remaining archdemons. Despite being the Grey Wardens they don't really know anything about the Old Gods - what they really are, what they could do and what consequences there would be to deliberately seeking them out. Grey Wardens only know how to kill archdemons. That's all they're good for. If they went to seek the sleeping old gods they would be just doing what the darkspawn already are doing - and probably would unleash something more terrible than a Blight upon the world. That's why they needed to be stopped and that's why I exiled them. Blood magic is nothing compared to that.

[Aren]

But hey, Wardens do what they must, right?

Only if the writers said so,if they say they have to act insane they will behave insanely.Larius spent many years in that prison and was even more influenced by the calling than Janeka yet he still did not wanted to use Corypheus like Janeka.

[Aren]

 Despite being the Grey Wardens they don't really know anything about the Old Gods - what they really are, what they could do and what consequences there would be to deliberately seeking them out. Grey Wardens only know how to kill archdemons. That's all they're good for. If they went to seek the sleeping old gods they would be just doing what the darkspawn already are doing - and probably would unleash something more terrible than a Blight upon the world. 

All baseless speculations i would gladly use disciples of darkspawn to reach the old gods like the Architect did,but to kill them not to try to awaken them.

[thats1evildude]

Could they really afford to look for alternatives when they though they were going to turn into Ghouls, leaveing the world to contend with the threat of two more Blights and no way to stop them?

Did they even try?

[SgtSteel91]

Did they even try?

With so much on the line, I don't believe they couldn't afford to do anything but end the threat of the Blight here and now.

[Pasquale1234]

I think some of us are forgetting what The Calling means to a Grey Warden. In short, it marks the time when they are "called" to take a long walk into the Deep Roads and kill as many darkspawn as they can before they themselves are killed.

The Calling begins with nightmares and bad omens, and then the Warden begin the hear music and whispers from the Old Gods, the same "call" the darkspawn hear to search for the Old Gods.

Every single Warden in Ferelden and Orlais was under its influence. If they followed normal GW policy, every single one of them would have gone to the Deep Roads to die, effectively wiping out all warden presence in both nations. Would that have been a better plan? Using the fact that they were under The Calling en masse to try to find the last of the Old Gods and destroy them was a pretty darned good idea, imho. Since they're all hearing the whispers of the Old Gods and being called to go into the Deep Roads to die, they may as well try to do something more useful in the process.

OTOH, listening to Erimond's demon binding scheme was probably not such a good idea. They were desperate enough to try it, though, and had it worked, they could have prevented a blight or two. Did Clarel (and the others) make those decisions of their own free will, or did Erimond use blood magic mind control? I guess that's for us to interpret.

[Nocturnalchemy]

The simple answer to your question is, "Inherently? Nothing."

 

If the Grey Wardens came up with a plausible theory for why (as an insane "for instance") gathering up all the children in Val Royeaux and throwing them off a cliff would end a Blight, then - as far as strict Warden doctrine goes - they'd not only not have a problem with it, they'd be required to give it a shot.

[Aren]

Every single Warden in Ferelden and Orlais was under its influence. If they followed normal GW policy, every single one of them would have gone to the Deep Roads to die, effectively wiping out all warden presence in both nations. Would that have been a better plan? Using the fact that they were under The Calling en masse to try to find the last of the Old Gods and destroy them was a pretty darned good idea, imho. Since they're all hearing the whispers of the Old Gods and being called to go into the Deep Roads to die, they may as well try to do something more useful in the process.
 

It was a stupid plan, they had to try to contact the first warden instead to perform a plan without any authorizations,even attempt at unleash thousands of demons without certainty as for how to direct them into the deep roads nor any possible way to drill the underground to reach them.

[Pasquale1234]

It was a stupid plan, they had to try to contact the first warden instead to perform a plan without any authorizations,even attempt at unleash thousands of demons without certainty as for how to direct them into the deep roads nor any possible way to drill the underground to reach them.

While typing my post, I pretty much knew that someone would come along and not read the whole thing and respond just like this.

If you actually read the last paragraph, you might have noticed that I didn't advocate the demon binding part of the plan.

Trying to find and destroy the remaining Old Gods was a great plan. The method: using blood magic to bind demons, not so much.

[Brianman27]

Blood Magic isn't inherently evil.  As Dorian explains, it's just a source to make you magic stronger.  It allows you to be strong enough to bind demons.  It can be twisted for evil purposes, but it's not by itself evil.

 

Are you basing your whole opinion on Blood magic on what the tevinter slaver thinks?

Blood Magic IS evil because you USE demons, how many characters in the game have you seen that used Blood magic and everything went perfect?

Only the Warden and Hawke, because they aren't "real" blood mages.

 

-Jowan caused a lot of pain to himself and other people because of his blood magic

-Uldred almost destroyed the circle because of his blood magic

-Merrill caused the death of Marethari and her clan (determinant)

-Orsino, the guy who killed Hawke's mother, etc are evil

 

Blood Magic is evil because you use demons, same as using a disease to attack other people is evil, because you can also get sick. No one is free from demon temptation. Did you at least played Dragon age Origins? because it showed us what happens when someone tries to use an army of demons.

[Fuyin]

Are you basing your whole opinion on Blood magic on what the tevinter slaver thinks?

Blood Magic IS evil because you USE demons, how many characters in the game have you seen that used Blood magic and everything went perfect?

Only the Warden and Hawke, because they aren't "real" blood mages.

 

-Jowan caused a lot of pain to himself and other people because of his blood magic

-Uldred almost destroyed the circle because of his blood magic

-Merrill caused the death of Marethari and her clan (determinant)

-Orsino, the guy who killed Hawke's mother, etc are evil

 

Blood Magic is evil because you use demons, same as using a disease to attack other people is evil, because you can also get sick. No one is free from demon temptation. Did you at least played Dragon age Origins? because it showed us what happens when someone tries to use an army of demons.

What? Blood magic uses blood not demons. Demons feel attracted to blood magic but you don't need to use them to do that kind of magic

[Aren]

While typing my post, I pretty much knew that someone would come along and not read the whole thing and respond just like this.

If you actually read the last paragraph, you might have noticed that I didn't advocate the demon binding part of the plan.

Trying to find and destroy the remaining Old Gods was a great plan. The method: using blood magic to bind demons, not so much.

I saw each paragraph and there is no mention of any method of drilling to reach the old gods if Clarel didn't even thought about this basilar thing i'm not sure what she was trying to accomplish.Grey wardens are not darkspawns they are not able to dig like them thus they cannot reach the old gods

[German Soldier]

The organizations of Dragon Age Inquisition  behaved  unrealistically because Bioware wanted to put the accent to their own personal karma which is basically force flaws and mistakes  that don't make any sense all for the sake of painting good factions as a bad factions and viceversa,so we had the GW who had obviously an immense reputation after DAO and that needed to be demolished a bit for the sake of "grey morality"which resulted into an unbelievable commedy far from any sense of realism.I mean i can accept some GW being controlled by Cauliflower but that their commander agreed to such contrived plan is a little bit far fetched.