79 réponses à ce sujet

[Domakir]

I mean i can accept some GW being controlled by Cauliflower but that their commander agreed to such contrived plan is a little bit far fetched.

Just a little bit?

[thats1evildude]

I don't have a problem with the Wardens agreeing to a foolish plan. As a wise man once said:

 

It just goes to show, people will up and go mad when they think their life is over...

[Sifr]

Only if the writers said so,if they say they have to act insane they will behave insanely.Larius spent many years in that prison and was even more influenced by the calling than Janeka yet he still did not wanted to use Corypheus like Janeka.

 

Larius wasn't a mage though, which is why he was able to resist his influence far more.

 

There's a codex entry in the prison that states that it was discovered that Warden Mages are far more susceptible to being influenced by Corypheus than the non-Mage Wardens. This is the reason they needed an untainted mage to bind Corpyheus, because any Warden mage who tried or got too close, would fall under his spell and instead try to free him from his prison instead.

 

World of Thedas Vol 2 confirms that Janeka has been slowly been enthralled ever since she first set foot in the prison, having served there for years under both Larius' command and later as his successor to oversee the prison.

 

Corypheus having more sway over Warden mages is also the reason why Anders briefly hulks out into Justice if you bring him along, which happens when he gets close to the base of the tower that Corypheus is being held in.

 

It's also no coincidence that the Wardens in Corypheus' retinue during the flashback with Justinia are all mages, while his plan in Inquisition involves binding demons to the mages and using the rest (who he cannot use) as blood sacrifices to fuel the ritual.

[TEWR]

Biowares writing of it was shite

[KaiserShep]

Thinking about it, the Grey Wardens' plan is fairly understandable. Where it actually went wrong in the end was being duped and ultimately controlled when they attempted the binding. If the Grey Wardens had attempted this on their own, without the subterfuge by Corypheus and his minions, the worst outcome would be dead Wardens, and a tunnel full of demons, which isn't really worse than the darkspawn, which are a cataclysmic threat that still plagues Thedas. If I was really looking for a way to smite the Old Gods preemptively, a demon army would definitely be an option. Solas might ****** and moan about the idea of destroying the old gods in their sleep, but not even he's offering any alternatives to combating the Blight.

[Aren]

Larius wasn't a mage though, which is why he was able to resist his influence far more.

There's a codex entry in the prison that states that it was discovered that Warden Mages are far more susceptible to being influenced by Corypheus than the non-Mage Wardens. This is the reason they needed an untainted mage to bind Corpyheus, because any Warden mage who tried or got too close, would fall under his spell and instead try to free him from his prison instead.

World of Thedas Vol 2 confirms that Janeka has been slowly been enthralled ever since she first set foot in the prison, having served there for years under both Larius' command and later as his successor to oversee the prison.

Corypheus having more sway over Warden mages is also the reason why Anders briefly hulks out into Justice if you bring him along, which happens when he gets close to the base of the tower that Corypheus is being held in.

It's also no coincidence that the Wardens in Corypheus' retinue during the flashback with Justinia are all mages, while his plan in Inquisition involves binding demons to the mages and using the rest (who he cannot use) as blood sacrifices to fuel the ritual.

Bethany is a mage warden which was unaffected by Corypheus.

[Akiza]

Thinking about it, the Grey Wardens' plan is fairly understandable. Where it actually went wrong in the end was being duped and ultimately controlled when they attempted the binding. If the Grey Wardens had attempted this on their own, without the subterfuge by Corypheus and his minions, the worst outcome would be dead Wardens, and a tunnel full of demons, which isn't really worse than the darkspawn, which are a cataclysmic threat that still plagues Thedas. If I was really looking for a way to smite the Old Gods preemptively, a demon army would definitely be an option. Solas might ****** and moan about the idea of destroying the old gods in their sleep, but not even he's offering any alternatives to combating the Blight.

The plan was stupid and not fairly uderstandable.They had no way to know how
to control alla those demons this is the same mistake Avernus did(and he only summoned few demons).Demons can be a greater threat than darkspawns especially if they possess those foolish mages who summoned them and become abominations.The GW had no way to drill the underground so their plan made no sense.
The only way to reach old gods is via disciples like The Architect did with very little effort not via demons.

[thats1evildude]

Bethany is a mage warden which was unaffected by Corypheus.

 

Malcolm Hawke's blood was used to imprison Corypheus, so Bethany and Carver may be protected from his influence as a result.

[Sifr]

Bethany is a mage warden which was unaffected by Corypheus.

 

Depending on when you play Legacy, she's either not a Warden yet (or at all), or has only been joined for 3 - 6 years, which might not be long enough for the corruption to advance in her system to make her as easily enthralled.

 

It did take years for it slowly influencing her before it managed to affect Janeka's mind, compared to Bethany who's exposure was limited to the time she was in the prison. The reason it affects Anders more strongly is because he's been a Warden for far longer, as well as his mental focus already being dedicated to keep Justice in check, so he has a harder time shutting Corypheus out.

 

Corypheus' ability to influence Wardens is probably far stronger in Inquisition than it was in Legacy, because during that time he was either asleep or in a weakened state after his millennia long power nap, which seems to limit his ability to directly control people.

 

If he'd been at full strength as he was during Inquisition, he probably could have controlled Anders and Bethany to turn against us. As it was, he later admits to the Inquisitor at Haven that he was "dazed and confused" when he first woke up.

[Asha'bellanar]

Did they even try?

Nope. Like everyone else in the game, they just went, "Oh, noes, something must be done! THIS is something! We must do it!" without giving it any deeper thought or even making the slightest effort to find a more sane alternative.

 

All I can figure is that when there's a big hole torn in the Veil, demons of stupidity get through and possess all the leaders of the continent, unless said leader has ancient elven magic embedded in their palm.   (Though a lot of the stupidity was going on before the Breach, so I'm guessing the demons of stupidity were unleashed in some other way years prior.)

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Then again, there's a lot of "How can you be so freaking STUPID?!" going on in DA:I. Templars were being led by a demon (uh, wut?) as were the Seekers, the rebel mages had zero plan apart from "we rebel! yay, now we're free!", the Wardens, the Chantry with their "let's ignore the edicts of the previous Divine and denounce the one person who has any chance of saving the world", pretty much all of them. I don't know that I'd say Gaspard/Briala/Celene are necessarily stupid, but they are pig-headed, arrogant, and all in need of having their heads cracked together.

Well, a lot of that stupidity was on purpose, to make a point. Take the Templars for example. Being led and fooled by a demon, of all things, is supposed to make them look stupid. Specifically, it highlights one of their weaknesses as an order (a weakness shared by many paramilitary organizations): Their inability/refusal to question. They're trained to follow orders, not to question, so that's exactly what they do, and it nearly wipes them out.

 

As for the Chantry, I find it totally believable that they'd be more concerned about their own petty problems and personal advancement, and that they would denounce the Inquisition as heretics, since they technically are even if the Divine reinstated the order (because of the Herald of Andraste thing).

[Asha'bellanar]

Well, a lot of that stupidity was on purpose, to make a point.

Yes. I'm aware. I actually have some understanding of how storytelling works. That doesn't mean I have to get on board with it when characters do stupid things, no matter what point the writers were making. I can both understand the point and simultaneously be so interested in the story that I am frustrated by their actions.

[ShadowLordXII]

Grey Wardens have been established and shown to be willing to use Blood Magic when necessary. This goes with their coda of doing whatever is needed to fight Darkspawn and protect the would from the Blight. That's not bad in itself as this same mindset has managed to protect Thedas from no less than five massive darkspawn invasions.

 

As others have pointed out, it's the stupidity of the plan that's the major point of contention as well as the idiot ball that the writers gave the Wardens.

 

Common sense and reason are part of decision making along with emotion and belief. So it's perfectly justified to criticize the Wardens of Orlais (and apparently Ferelden though we never see any true indications of such) for not double-checking with Wardens in the Free Marches or anywhere else. Has there ever been a mass Calling experienced by hundreds of Wardens at the same time? I highly doubt it and this alone should have ticked off warning lights in more than just a handful of wardens.

 

Nope! The Orlesian wardens have no qualms with completely trusting a Tevinter supremist with plans for summoning an army of demons to enter the Deeps and kill the remaining Old gods. They also have no qualms with summoning all of the other southern wardens into this mess and killing anyone else with enough brain cells left to point out that this plan is bonkers. Also, I thought every Warden branch was under its own command structure; how do the Orlesian wardens have the authority to command everyone else to abandon their posts in Ferelden and the Free Marches? Why weren't any letters sent to the First Warden telling him that Warden-Commander Clarel is acting very strangely?

 

Also, I'd point out that demons and spirits typically avoid darkspawn or the taint in general to avoid being corrupted themselves. And considering that innumerable numbers of darkspawn are said to surround the places where the Old gods are imprisoned per "The Calling", I doubt that this demon plan would work anyway. The Wardens themselves are aware of this fact which makes the plan all the more stupid.

 

Let's break it down: In 9:30 Dragon, there were several hundred wardens in Orlais and since nothing major has happened there, we can assume that this number is largely the same in 9:41 Dragon. We don't know how many are in the Free Marches or how many would be Ferelden, but we can infer that they're less in number than in Orlais, especially since the Ferelden wardens had to rebuild from scratch after the Fifth Blight.

 

For numbers, I'll be generous and say that there's at least 500 warden warriors/rogues/rangers/templars/etc. and 100 warden mages in total. I'll also say that 1 warden sacrifice equals ten demons under warden control.

 

Even if you sacrificed all 500 warden muggles for 5000 decently strong demons, that won't be nearly enough to break through the darkspawn and kill the Old gods. Especially when you consider that the darkspawn magisters are previously shown to be capable of summoning and binding demons to their will as well and that the darkspawn are strongest in their home turf unless you happen to be the "demi-god" known as The Warden. On this logical basis alone, this is a stupid plan.

 

And a supposedly smart and capable commander like Clarel should be able to deduce this. Especially since she's a former enchanter of the Circle and would therefore, know more about demons and what they can and can't do. She should also be willing to investigate Erimond's ritual more closely than not at all to determine if his ritual has any potential drawbacks or double-edged swords like binding her mages to the control of a Demon or an ancient Darkspawn magister.

 

But no, she just blindly accepts that this is the best plan and goes with it.

 

That's what people find hard to buy. Which is sad because otherwise this would be an interesting story arc with how a formerly heroic organization is being tricked into becoming pawns of that which they swore to fight against. Take out the idiot ball and put something more believeable and this would work.

[Qun00]

Grey Wardens have been established and shown to be willing to use Blood Magic when necessary. This goes with their coda of doing whatever is needed to fight Darkspawn and protect the would from the Blight. That's not bad in itself as this same mindset has managed to protect Thedas from no less than five massive darkspawn invasions.

As others have pointed out, it's the stupidity of the plan that's the major point of contention as well as the idiot ball that the writers gave the Wardens.

Common sense and reason are part of decision making along with emotion and belief. So it's perfectly justified to criticize the Wardens of Orlais (and apparently Ferelden though we never see any true indications of such) for not double-checking with Wardens in the Free Marches or anywhere else. Has there ever been a mass Calling experienced by hundreds of Wardens at the same time? I highly doubt it and this alone should have ticked off warning lights in more than just a handful of wardens.

Nope! The Orlesian wardens have no qualms with completely trusting a Tevinter supremist with plans for summoning an army of demons to enter the Deeps and kill the remaining Old gods. They also have no qualms with summoning all of the other southern wardens into this mess and killing anyone else with enough brain cells left to point out that this plan is bonkers. Also, I thought every Warden branch was under its own command structure; how do the Orlesian wardens have the authority to command everyone else to abandon their posts in Ferelden and the Free Marches? Why weren't any letters sent to the First Warden telling him that Warden-Commander Clarel is acting very strangely?

Also, I'd point out that demons and spirits typically avoid darkspawn or the taint in general to avoid being corrupted themselves. And considering that innumerable numbers of darkspawn are said to surround the places where the Old gods are imprisoned per "The Calling", I doubt that this demon plan would work anyway. The Wardens themselves are aware of this fact which makes the plan all the more stupid.

Let's break it down: In 9:30 Dragon, there were several hundred wardens in Orlais and since nothing major has happened there, we can assume that this number is largely the same in 9:41 Dragon. We don't know how many are in the Free Marches or how many would be Ferelden, but we can infer that they're less in number than in Orlais, especially since the Ferelden wardens had to rebuild from scratch after the Fifth Blight.

For numbers, I'll be generous and say that there's at least 500 warden warriors/rogues/rangers/templars/etc. and 100 warden mages in total. I'll also say that 1 warden sacrifice equals ten demons under warden control.

Even if you sacrificed all 500 warden muggles for 5000 decently strong demons, that won't be nearly enough to break through the darkspawn and kill the Old gods. Especially when you consider that the darkspawn magisters are previously shown to be capable of summoning and binding demons to their will as well and that the darkspawn are strongest in their home turf unless you happen to be the "demi-god" known as The Warden. On this logical basis alone, this is a stupid plan.

And a supposedly smart and capable commander like Clarel should be able to deduce this. Especially since she's a former enchanter of the Circle and would therefore, know more about demons and what they can and can't do. She should also be willing to investigate Erimond's ritual more closely than not at all to determine if his ritual has any potential drawbacks or double-edged swords like binding her mages to the control of a Demon or an ancient Darkspawn magister.

But no, she just blindly accepts that this is the best plan and goes with it.

That's what people find hard to buy. Which is sad because otherwise this would be an interesting story arc with how a formerly heroic organization is being tricked into becoming pawns of that which they swore to fight against. Take out the idiot ball and put something more believeable and this would work.

And conveniently, our beloved Warden-Commander of Ferelden is out on a quest.

Of course, there must be a Warden-Constable filling in, but s/he clearly was poorly chosen.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I approve of using blood magic. I disapprove of using demons. Demons always want something.

[thats1evildude]

I wouldn't dismiss the strength of an army of demons. One of the biggest challenges with moving through the Deep Roads is the logistics issue: darkspawn don't need food or sleep, but human troops definitely do, and it would be very difficult to supply an army underground.

However, demons don't need food or sleep either, and they don't get injured the same way we mortals can. A rage demon can't break its leg stepping in a hole, for instance.

Also, while darkspawn are very numerous, they're also very disorganized. Marching through the Deep Roads, you might encounter groups of a few dozen or even a few hundred darkspawn, but that's about it. The darkspawn need an Archdemon leading them to muster into any kind of substantial fighting force.

That's not really a problem with an army of demons, who are all bound by blood magic. (To obey Corypheus, though obviously the Wardens didn't know that.)

[Pasquale1234]

Has there ever been a mass Calling experienced by hundreds of Wardens at the same time? I highly doubt it and this alone should have ticked off warning lights in more than just a handful of wardens.

Maybe they interpreted it to mean that a new archdemon was about to rise, or that the horde had reached quantum mass or somesuch.

We know precious little about how GW "know" that a true blight is underway, and how that is different from knowing that your Calling has arrived.
 

For numbers, I'll be generous and say that there's at least 500 warden warriors/rogues/rangers/templars/etc. and 100 warden mages in total. I'll also say that 1 warden sacrifice equals ten demons under warden control.
 
Even if you sacrificed all 500 warden muggles for 5000 decently strong demons, that won't be nearly enough to break through the darkspawn and kill the Old gods. Especially when you consider that the darkspawn magisters are previously shown to be capable of summoning and binding demons to their will as well and that the darkspawn are strongest in their home turf unless you happen to be the "demi-god" known as The Warden. On this logical basis alone, this is a stupid plan.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that 5000 decently strong demons plus 100 warden mages probably have a much better chance than 500 muggle wardens plus 100 warden mages.
 

But no, she just blindly accepts that this is the best plan and goes with it.

At least it's a plan. Otherwise, all of the wardens go off on their Calling.

[ShadowLordXII]

Also, while darkspawn are very numerous, they're also very disorganized. Marching through the Deep Roads, you might encounter groups of a few dozen or even a few hundred darkspawn, but that's about it. The darkspawn need an Archdemon leading them to muster into any kind of substantial fighting force.

 

The Dwarves beg to differ. The darkspawn wage persistent and organized war against the Dwarves in-between blights and the Dwarves (for all of their strengths) are badly losing that war. Alphas, Emissaries, Omegas and Ancient Darkspawn evidently serve well enough as leaders when they're not fighting each other and they'd drop their in-fighting as soon as a common enemy came knocking loudly on their doorstep.

 

I don't remember the exact quote, but Frodo explained a similar concept to Sam in the Return of the King book. The pair of them saw two orcs argue and fight until one killed the other and then ran. In fact, Sam had earlier seen the orcs fight and kill each other in Cirith Ungol which made it easier for him to rescue Frodo. Sam is delighted and says that their quest would be easier if more orcs fought each other. Frodo points out that orcs are inherently vicious and cruel to the point of fighting each other. But they're still bound by the power of Sauron and under his control to do his bidding. Therefore, if those orcs had seen the hobbits, they'd drop their quarrel and immediately work together to kill our heroes.

 

A similar situation would happen with the admittingly powerful demon army. As soon as 5,000 demons led by a few hundred of the darkspawn's greatest enemies started attacking them, every single orc band and clan would join forces to kill them. And while the demons would be formidable opponents, the darkspawn emissaries can summon demons of their own. Not to mention that as soon as even one mage dies, the warden control over the demons will wane and the demons will either disappear, join the darkspawn or turn on the wardens. And considering that darkspawn are great at ambushing targets via shrieks and even shape-shifting emissaries with stealth of their own, you're going to see a lot of mages die off before the darkspawn are dealt any major damage.

 

Furthermore, we have references to most spirits/demons avoiding the Black City to avoid being tainted by the Blight as other dumber/more reckless spirits have. If Spirits are at risk of being tainted in the Fade, then demons are most definitely at risk in the Mortal Plane. And once tainted, you'll effectively fall under Darkspawn control through the "Song" that flows through the Taint and influences everyone whose tainted with the temporary exception of Grey Wardens.

 

"Blood magic comes from demons; they could counter every bit of lore I possess. But the darkspawn taint, that is alien to them. And it has power."

[Eelectrica]

The Wardens wanted to level up faster and fighting demons gives more XP than fighting Darkspawn.

Wiping out their kill stealing 'buddies' also helps in this.

[ShadowLordXII]

The Wardens wanted to level up faster and fighting demons gives more XP than fighting Darkspawn.

Wiping out their kill stealing 'buddies' also helps in this.

 

^ I like this guy. His plan's way better.

[thats1evildude]

The Dwarves beg to differ. The darkspawn wage persistent and organized war against the Dwarves in-between blights and the Dwarves (for all of their strengths) are badly losing that war.

Because the darkspawn can afford to fight a war of attrition. Individual losses mean nothing to the darkspawn; if you pitted every dwarf against every darkspawn and every dwarf killed a dozen enemies before dying, the darkspawn would still overrun the Deep Roads in months. Because even if you decimated their ranks, the darkspawn only need one successful raid and one female captive to transform into a broodmother to produce hundreds if not thousands of troops.

In Last Flight, the darkspawn never adapt to the Wardens' tactics despite losing hundreds of troops to their raids. Why? Because they don't need to. There will always be more darkspawn, and they will keep fighting until the Archdemon is dead.

Alphas, Emissaries, Omegas and Ancient Darkspawn evidently serve well enough as leaders when they're not fighting each other and they'd drop their in-fighting as soon as a common enemy came knocking loudly on their doorstep.

They can gather up a few hundred troops, but any larger group will inevitably fall to infighting. Only the Old Gods are capable of mustering the darkspawn into a real fighting force, and even then they tend to be disorganized as hell.

Not sure where you get that demons avoid darkspawn. However, in Last Flight, it's said that some mages - trapped by the darkspawn and facing death - will become abominations just to take down as many darkspawn as possible.

[ShadowLordXII]

Because the darkspawn can afford to fight a war of attrition. Individual losses mean nothing to the darkspawn; if you pitted every dwarf against every darkspawn and every dwarf killed a dozen enemies before dying, the darkspawn would still overrun the Deep Roads in months. Because even if you decimated their ranks, the darkspawn only need one successful raid and one female captive to transform into a broodmother to produce hundreds if not thousands of troops.

In Last Flight, the darkspawn never adapt to the Wardens' tactics despite losing hundreds of troops to their raids. Why? Because they don't need to. There will always be more darkspawn, and they will keep fighting until the Archdemon is dead.

They can gather up a few hundred troops, but any larger group will inevitably fall to infighting. Only the Old Gods are capable of mustering the darkspawn into a real fighting force, and even then they tend to be disorganized as hell.

 

1) All the more reason why the warden-demon army would never work. The lynchpin of the army relies on the warden-mages being able to retain control over the demons and stay alive. With various ways that darkspawn can sense and ambush those mages, the Wardens are screwed. Don't downplay how formidable of a challenge entering the darkspawn depths would be, especially since the surface can barely beat these guys when on the defensive. The Warden demon-army wouldn't even have the element surprise as the darkspawn would sense the wardens themselves and prepare accordingly.

 

2) The Old gods are considered the source of the Calling and those emissaries, alphas, omegas and ancients specifically lead the rest of the horde so that it doesn't falter from the will of said Calling. Against a Grey Warden assault, the darkspawn would unite under the orders of those darkspawn commanders and the Will of the Calling. They only appear to be disorganized due to their chaotic and blood-thirsty nature. We've even seen them re-purpose Dwarven architecture into strongholds and forward command posts, there's a reason why the darkspawn are the greatest threat that Thedas' has ever seen.

 

I'd also point out that specific numbers on how many darkspawn follow a particular alpha or emissary aren't set in stone. For all we know, there could be powerful ancient darkspawn deeper in the Deep Roads who personally command thousands of darkspawn. In any case, your assumption that the darkspawn won't unite against a common enemy (especially their greatest enemy) that's attacking them and trying to kill their gods doesn't hold up in face of what we know about the Calling, the Taint and the Darkspawn hive-mind.

 

3) Darkspawn show strong hints of historical adaptation to Grey Warden tactics through strategic movement: During the Second Blight, they deliberately attack the Anderfels first to try and wipe out the Grey Wardens and came within an inch of succeeding before Orlais came to the Warden's aid. In the Third Blight, they assail the much weaker Free Marches to gain a better stepping off point and failed because the Wardens persuaded Orlais and Tevinter to intervene. The Fourth Blight was brilliantly timed with the darkspawn assaulting Thedas just after an exhausting and ultimately unsuccessful Exalted March against Tevinter and overran Rivain, the Anderfels, Antiva and the Free Marches. There's also the fact that the Fifth Blight started in Ferelden when there were only a few dozen wardens present, that can't be coincidence.

 

Granted, the post-Origins games don't give the Darkspawn the credit and respectful portrayal (as Thedas' greatest threats) that they deserve.

[KaiserShep]

Granted, the post-Origins games don't give the Darkspawn the credit and respectful portrayal (as Thedas' greatest threats) that they deserve.

 

 

The only way to really illustrate the threat of the darkspawn in a game that is not set during a Blight in a game would be to have most of it take place in the Deep Roads, which honestly I wouldn't care all that much for. 

[Asha'bellanar]

At least it's a plan. Otherwise, all of the wardens go off on their Calling.

We must do something. This is something, therefore we must do it.

[KaiserShep]

I think the trouble is that there is no real answer to the darkspawn threat at all. It pretty much appears to be a totally hopeless situation until some miraculous solution presents itself, because they're a seemingly neverending immortal army of sleepless monsters that can't be killed faster than they can replenish their numbers. Not even the Wardens provide a good answer, because they're basically only good for stopping an organized horde on the surface by successfully terminating an archdemon. Once the supply of Old Gods runs out, their order becomes defunct. It's a fair bet that they not only expected to all die in the Deep Roads in this crazy plan, but that they would bring about the end of the Grey Warden order if, by some miracle, they actually succeeded.