84 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryuzetsu]

I'm not typically the kind that starts these kind of posts, but I have nothing to lose now. First let me start off by saying that yes, closing the forums is about communication, about stifling it. Bioware makes the argument that the forum is obsolete and yet keeps the TOR forum open? The reason they believe they can have "better dialogue" with the fan base through outlets like Facebook, is because the goal is to have no dialogue.
Let me explain what I mean. In shuttering the forum, you get to silence the core fan base by taking hard core fans and blending them with the rest of the unnamed masses on Twitter or Facebook, which immediately loses any weight in the eye of the broader public. To tell you the truth, it really is ingenious to go about it this way if you are going the zero given route. The reasons are two fold. First it is really difficult to give a cogent argument in 140 to 160 characters on something as broad as.. let's say.. plot development or shooting mechanics.
Secondly, and this is more important, Bioware gets to create they're own little "safe space" by retreating to social media, especially Facebook, and let their moderators deal with any "toxic posts". The fact that these entities have special councils which thought police speech headed by the likes of snowflakes like Anita Sarkeesian and others of her ilk, truly informs upon the real motive here.
Basically with the forum gone and any schmuck able to chime in on things they may know nothing about if a thread goes south and one of these other outlets decides to shut it down, Bioware can blame the media outlet for the censorship, wash their hands of it and stay silent. It's insidious.
And yes they will point to the low number of posts on the forum recently as a metric indicator that the forum has been overshadowed by things like Reddit, but in reality the reasons the traffic volume is low, is that we have nothing new to talk about!
Look this is a [***] move and we all know it, my only hope is that someone, ...anyone, may someday create an independent forum board for us, and God willing we'll all be reunited for Mass Effect Andromeda 2/ The Search For More Money....

[RoboArigatou]

Sure.

[Shinobu]

Closing the BSN does seem to be a calculated risk for EA/Bioware. On the one hand they won't have to listen to negativity on their own dime and give fans a place to foment revolution, but on the other hand they will no longer be able to close threads that they find objectionable. They may hope that any competing fora will be too small to create waves, or that they will die off eventually, like Hold the Line.

 

And I'm a little surprised that they're embracing Facebook when the last big Facebook interaction they had with fans was the Retake movement. I suppose at this point they feel they have no choice but to get on the social media bandwagon.

[ZipZap2000]

Ok, Frank.

(Sips Ryncol)

[Element Zero]

...my only hope is that someone, ...anyone, may someday create an independent forum board for us...

So, you really aren't aware of http://bsn.boards.net?

Where did you think everyone went, dude?

[slimgrin]

Forum shutdown is about regulating commentary on the game. I also think their devs have had a hard time dealing with negative feedback, some of which has been relentless. EA, as we all know is SJW in culture, so the solution is to control the kind of reception they get, and they can only do that on sites like Facebook and Twitter where the admins openly censor.

[BSpud]

LOL. The best thing about this development has been the fan narcissism and paranoia. Oh, BSN... staying true to yourself even in the face of death.

[rossler]

Last forum shutdown I've witnessed was mainly due to the forum being way too toxic, negative, and general nonsense bring posted.

There was some good stuff, but it was buried underneath a huge pile of steaming toxic waste.

[Sanunes]

Closing the BSN does seem to be a calculated risk for EA/Bioware. On the one hand they won't have to listen to negativity on their own dime and give fans a place to foment revolution, but on the other hand they will no longer be able to close threads that they find objectionable. They may hope that any competing fora will be too small to create waves, or that they will die off eventually, like Hold the Line.

 

And I'm a little surprised that they're embracing Facebook when the last big Facebook interaction they had with fans was the Retake movement. I suppose at this point they feel they have no choice but to get on the social media bandwagon.

 

I think the problem is here they don't know where to start really regulating the content people are putting forth.  Anytime you had a thread deleted or someone got banned it became a controversy by itself because "BioWare is censoring my valid concerns" or other similar ideas.  The other problem I see with BioWare having their boards is it seems that several "news" websites seem to lurk here waiting for something to drive clicks on their websites or YouTube videos.  With the removal of these forums it become less official looking when it isn't on a forum hosted by BioWare.

 

I personally don't think we would have had the interaction with BioWare the way it was in the past either for any post made with a BioWare tag become a hard truth and with people starting to threaten BioWare with class action lawsuits and the one FTC filing I think they want to protect themselves from making anything look like official comments too.

[AtreiyaN7]

To the OP: Please take your conspiracy theories and your apparent need to pointlessly drag Anita Sarkeesian into a "discussion" (I use that term loosely for your post) of the shutdown of a forum that has nothing to do with Anita Sarkeesian (or feminist issues in general), etc., and go flush them down the nearest toilet ASAP.

 

For the umpteenth time, it really is due to the toxicity of the forums that these forums are being shut down - your post being yet another a case in point. It's all the threads like this one that keep providing more and more evidence as to why the forums are being shut down in the first place. Also, OP, please learn to insert some freaking blank lines between your paragraphs.

[LinksOcarina]

Well, the first part I agree with.

 

Second part I think there is a bit more to it than just people [***] on the forums. I have a feeling it's business in some form as well that is another impetus on here.

[serenai]

There are ways for people to learn how to moderate a forum well. It just takes desire and effort - without those the attempt(s) go to waste (toxic waste). Neither of them have been in evidence here for a long time.

 

What some people never understood is that internet fora are not democracies and their "First Amendment" rights do not apply.  It's a lesson that could have been taught to them. I've been a moderator many times and it can be done.

 

There will always be trolls, but you can convince many people to listen and either realize they're wrong, or actually think about what you're saying and slow down and talk.  You can turn volatility and anger into an actual discussion.. but only if you try. Just like with anything else, if you don't try then you have a 100% chance of failure.

 

There are many good, intelligent, and caring folk here and they've always outweighed the number of trolls or angry/rude ones. Simply put, a non-toxic environment takes time to grow - the last thing this place needed was more and more of the old hands-off approach. The further back BioWare retreated, the worse it looked to them. Until now, here we are.

 

In any case.. there are a few places people are going. FIrst, the new BSN at bsn.boards.net. They have new Twitter threads set up already and many refugees have swum over.  Then there is fextralife.com, where Fexelea is archiving posts so we don't lose post history. There is also reddit - /r/dragonage and /r/masseffect, with many subreddits. I've been a member there for a while but I don't post much - don't really like the way the posting goes, and things get auto-archived after 6 months, etc. There's also https://realdragonagefans.forums.net which looks like the smallest, so far. So you have choices where you would like to land if you don't want to go to social media. I'll be at the first two if anyone needs me.

 

I do think there is another reason they are not telling us. I really wish if there were that they'd be honest with us.. but who knows what's really going on? I'm not privy to their counsel. All I can do is dive when the Captain tells me to abandon ship.

[slimgrin]

LOL. The best thing about this development has been the fan narcissism and paranoia. Oh, BSN... staying true to yourself even in the face of death.

 

Perhaps you could explain your case better on Twitter? I don't quite get your feedback here. 

[Lady Artifice]

That Bioware might be interesting in filtering fan feedback is one of the most common theories around in the wake of the closure announcement. I'm not sure why you think this is a revelation that you alone have considered. 

[Sifr]

In my head, this is pretty much the current conversation between Bioware and the fandom;

 

Fandom: When you say the forums are "obsolete"... you really mean "toxic", don't you?

Bioware: We didn't say that...

Fandom: But you've certainly implied  it enough times. That's why the BSN is being shut down and not the TOR forums.

Bioware: Even if that was  true... you have to agree, when was the last time you heard anything  toxic from TOR?

Fandom: When was the last time you heard anyone playing  TOR?

 

(Okay, if I have to be honest, I do actually play and enjoy TOR immensely... but the overall point still stands, why are their forums still open?)

[Kinom001]

Holy crap...that is one big arse paragraph.

[Ruadh]

"Everyone likes me, and thinks I'm great, in my safe space.

 

People don't judge me, and haters don't hate, in my safe space.

 

Bully proof windows, troll safe doors, nothing but kindness in here.

 

You might call me a *****, but I won't hear you, in my safe space.

 

If you do not like me, you are not allowed, in my safe space.

 

Look and you will see, there's a very select crowd, in your safe space.

 

People that support me, mixed in with, more people that support me, and say nice things, rainbows all around me, there is no shame in my safe space."

[RIPRemusTheTurian]

As pathetic as it sounds, this forum shutdown is the first time I've ever thought of freedom of speech.

 

Every time a friend went on about Germany's censoring or Facebook removing posts I just rolled my eyes, but now I kind of see what they're getting at.

[9TailsFox]

In my head, this is pretty much the current conversation between Bioware and the fandom;

 

Fandom: When you say the forums are "obsolete"... you really mean "toxic", don't you?

Bioware: We didn't say that...

Fandom: But you've certainly implied  it enough times. That's why the BSN is being shut down and not the TOR forums.

Bioware: Even if that was  true... you have to agree, when was the last time you heard anything  toxic from TOR?

Fandom: When was the last time you heard anyone playing  TOR?

 

(Okay, if I have to be honest, I do actually play and enjoy TOR immensely... but the overall point still stands, why are their forums still open?)

when was the last time you heard anything  toxic from TOR?

 

New dark and light event.

[mrjack]

As pathetic as it sounds, this forum shutdown is the first time I've ever thought of freedom of speech.

 

Every time a friend went on about Germany's censoring or Facebook removing posts I just rolled my eyes, but now I kind of see what they're getting at.

 

One last time for anyone who still doesn't get it:

 

The right to free speech in a free society (The First Amendment in the U.S.) gives you the right to freely speak out against the government without the fear of recrimination by said government. It does not give you the legal right to say whatever you want, about whoever you want, in any space (physical or virtual) that you want with impunity (even in some cases by the government, see: hate speech legislation).

 

Private citizens and organizations that maintain private spaces for discussion (even if the discussion is open to all) are under no obligation to allow you to speak your mind free of restrictions. If you someone wants to shut you up and it's within their power to do so, then they have every right to. It's up to the individual in charge of that forum who decides if, when and how to censor you and I'm glad for that.

 

--- The rest of this post is no longer directed at the confused posterI quoted ---

 

I was sad when I found out the forums were closing but I don't blame BW for flushing it. I soured on the whole experience since a lare portion of the "fans" seemed to turn into a bunch of right-wing nutbags overnight (see: OP). if I wanted to know what those people had to say on the representation of women and minorities in the media, I'd go read Breitbart or something equally as dreadful.

 

Even without the politics, the overwhelming negativity towards the games, the devs, other fans and the industry in general has been leaving a bad taste in my mouth for months. I used to stay and read pages and pages of threads and now I pop in, read the twitter thread and generally leave straight after. Every time I would try and engage in a conversation, the discussion would be overrun by people who I would avoid in real life. I can't even count the number of times, I've started a long though-out reply only to ditch it entirely while thinking, "What's the point? Think about who you're talking to here. You're not changing anyone's mind today."

 

And what makes all of this so hard to stomach for me, and the reason I have closed my browser many times in disgust (open tabs be damned), is that the BW devs who actually take the time to engage with fans (here or elsewhere) are some of the coolest, sweetest, smartest, funniest men and women who also make games that I love. Personality-wise, they are like people I know in real life and choose to be friends with except they also share so many of the same geeky, nerdy and artsy interests as me, which most of my real-life friends do not.

 

There are some real scummy people on this Earth and this is how some so-called fans choose to direct their anger. There is so little civil discourse, no fair and frank debate or even just a good laugh to be had here. What little there was is buried underneath the unadulterated hate.

 

Basically it's just not fun anymore so I guess I'm only sad because I'm mourning the loss of something I haven't really had for a long time.

[mrjack]

when was the last time you heard anything  toxic from TOR?

 

New dark and light event.

 

The SWTOR forums are ten times worse but they pay a monthly fee which includes a private forum to spew their hate so I guess they feel even more entitled than the average gamer. This is coming from someone who subscribed for a year. They really are the worst.

[SnakeCode]

Basically, unless you're an out and out fanboy/girl that's going to pay to go to a convention, dress up as their characters and shower them with praise, they don't want to hear from you. Sure they might give you a like on twitter if you make a short statement about how great the game is or praise their "diversity", but it's no coincidence they're herding people towards facebook and twitter where it's easy to block people who leave negative feedback. Or as they're likely to put it, "toxic" feedback.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I've posted my thoughts on this before but here I go again.
I think it's about controlling the narrative. Maybe some marketing/PR wonks looked at the content of the forums and saw posts about how much Andromeda will suck etc and thought this is not how we want new customers to find out about the game.

[Shinobu]

Bioware: Even if that was  true... you have to agree, when was the last time you heard anything  toxic from TOR?

 

The "Ding Dong Bannu: A TORtanic Tragedy" video was pretty toxic in my opinion. And now it's entered gamer culture so that people post "Ding Dong Bannu" without knowing anything about its origins.

[Shinobu]

I've posted my thoughts on this before but here I go again.
I think it's about controlling the narrative. Maybe some marketing/PR wonks looked at the content of the forums and saw posts about how much Andromeda will suck etc and thought this is not how we want new customers to find out about the game.

 

People are going to act out wherever they have an outlet. Shutting down this place will just drive the disgruntled to other places newbies might go for information like Metacritic, Amazon reviews, etc.

 

But I'm sure Bioware has considered these things and finds the risk acceptable.

 

The question of how the forum affects the devs' mental health is a real consideration. I remember after DA2 how negative everyone was about Alistair's appearance ("beaten with the ugly stick" was one of the kinder comments) and Gaider got on the forum to say that the young dev who had worked very hard on Alistair was in tears all day, so could we please cut it out. (Of course, we didn't.) Alistair had a tiny part in the game, so I'm sure they thought it was a nice little project for the new kid that wouldn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things. But with the amount of passion people have for Alistair around here and the echo chamber effect the real disappointment fans felt got magnified ten thousand fold and then entered the culture, so it's still brought up in posts about Alistair.

 

This was a relatively small thing. Multiply that by a billion for the ME3 ending. Even though the ending was the work of a few people the entire team has been tarred and feathered by association.

 

One problem I see is that we don't let things go. It's like we're the person who will never stop bringing up that our significant other cheated on us that one time. Even people who have gotten over the ending of ME3 or never had a problem with it to begin with keep mentioning the controversy and it probably feels to the devs that we're rubbing salt in the old wound. Like the cheater who has supposedly been forgiven, they want us to drop it or stop dating them. And since they can't tell us to drop it without everyone flying off the handle, they are breaking up with us.

 

There is blame to go around. "We are listening" was not a good response, nor was threatening devs. We needed something like the "Truth and Reconciliation" of post-Apartheid South Africa where everyone could speak honestly about how the situation affected them and then hopefully let it go and start over. But it's way too late for that now.

 

So, Bioware, as weird and pretentious as it sounds, I'm sorry and I forgive you. I'm going to play Andomeda and I will try to enjoy or dislike it on its own merits.