84 réponses à ce sujet

[SofaJockey]

You're not a hardcore fan if you get salty over losing these terrible forums.

 

i was quite upset the evening of the 29th when that closure news arrived without warning.

 

I had a good rant at Conal (politely, because even ranting should be done in moderation).

 

Paticularly for MEMP and DAIMP, the forums are a real part of the game experience

 

A week on and I feel much better about it.

Feels like having a divorce but then being expected to stay friends... A bit uncomfortable to start with...  but let's see...

[Filament]

The rights and principles of free speech don't mean that you have to be given a soapbox, and that if someone does give you one they are entirely free to take it away from you. Removing a soapbox is not gagging or censorship or anything like that. You're still entirely free to say whatever you want about BioWare and their games (within whatever libel laws are appropriate wherever you are), even if the BioWare-provided soapbox is gone.

Unless it's considered a public utility, in which case a company like Twitter would be constitutionally required to give you a soapbox. BioWare, probably not.

[JPVNG]

Avoid criticism, it is a simple conclusion. Imagine what star trek official forums would be ,after what they did with the so called "reboot" 

Actually i thought Bioware was different.

[Seraphim24]

Well wait a sec, hang on, first of all, there is no real first amendment speech protection in the US. In practice, people are fired (and without a safety net, this is akin to a death sentence of a sort) for all kinds of things, like, commenting on the color of your bosses shirt or something. Not to mention, even constitutionally you can still be prosecuted under Alien and Sedition acts etc (which the US has made liberal use of throughout it's history)

 

Just think of it as hipster free speech rights, and you'll understand it perfectly. 

 

Basically it's like USSR Russia, roughly the same level of first amendment free speech rights. 

 

This "heavily censored" environment of BSN is in practice leagues beyond the US. 

[Steelcan]

Well wait a sec, hang on, first of all, there is no real first amendment speech protection in the US. In practice, people are fired (and without a safety net, this is akin to a death sentence of a sort) for all kinds of things, like, commenting on the color of your bosses shirt or something. Not to mention, even constitutionally you can still be prosecuted under Alien and Sedition acts etc (which the US has made liberal use of throughout it's history)

 

Just think of it as hipster free speech rights, and you'll understand it perfectly. 

 

Basically it's like USSR Russia, roughly the same level of first amendment free speech rights. 

 

This "heavily censored" environment of BSN is in practice leagues beyond the US. 

A. someone doesn't understand what the First Amendment means and protects

B. someone doesn't have a proper understanding of history

C. someone is 3edgy5me

[Steelcan]

Going to have to do better than that. 

nah I've said my piece

[Jaron Oberyn]

OP isn't wrong. I saw this with the criticism of DAI on Reddit, there were lots of closed threads on there and some people were banned. Leaving third party staff to handle this allows Bioware to have deniability of censorship. If they do that on here, it'll become a big story about how they're silencing feedback. Sad, crazy, but true.

[rossler]

Avoid criticism, it is a simple conclusion.

If people repeat the same argument over and over again until Bioware gives them what they want, it's not criticism, it's harassment.

Nothing wrong with presenting a well thought out argument once though.

[Seraphim24]

nah I've said my piece

 

Well, so as not to be OT any further, let me help you by giving you some reading material. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...d_Sedition_Acts

 

Forget free speech, at certain points, you simply weren't free to be a certain ethnicity. 

 

But yes I've said my piece, and I don't want to derail or offend the posting guidelines here. 

[Steelcan]

Well, so as not to be OT any further, let me help you by giving you some reading material. 

 

https://en.wikipedia...d_Sedition_Acts

 

Forget free speech, at certain points, you simply weren't free to be a certain ethnicity. 

 

But yes I've said my piece, and I don't want to derail or offend the posting guidelines here. 

Except the worst parts of those acts expired in 1800 and 1801.

 

The bit still in effect hasn't been utilized since 1948

[RIPRemusTheTurian]

On the topic of the first amendment...

I think what I'm trying to say as a Canadian isn't that BioWare legally owes us anything, but that I take the availability of venues - like this forum - to blabber on for granted.

This closure just reminds me of how precious the opportunity to share your mind really is.

[CrutchCricket]

The "Ding Dong Bannu: A TORtanic Tragedy" video was pretty toxic in my opinion. And now it's entered gamer culture so that people post "Ding Dong Bannu" without knowing anything about its origins.

On the contrary, it was clever and biting satire, precisely when and where it was needed.

 

It does need a Know Your Meme entry though. Good point.

 

People are going to act out wherever they have an outlet. Shutting down this place will just drive the disgruntled to other places newbies might go for information like Metacritic, Amazon reviews, etc.

 

But I'm sure Bioware has considered these things and finds the risk acceptable.

 

The question of how the forum affects the devs' mental health is a real consideration. I remember after DA2 how negative everyone was about Alistair's appearance ("beaten with the ugly stick" was one of the kinder comments) and Gaider got on the forum to say that the young dev who had worked very hard on Alistair was in tears all day, so could we please cut it out. (Of course, we didn't.) Alistair had a tiny part in the game, so I'm sure they thought it was a nice little project for the new kid that wouldn't matter too much in the grand scheme of things. But with the amount of passion people have for Alistair around here and the echo chamber effect the real disappointment fans felt got magnified ten thousand fold and then entered the culture, so it's still brought up in posts about Alistair.

 

This was a relatively small thing. Multiply that by a billion for the ME3 ending. Even though the ending was the work of a few people the entire team has been tarred and feathered by association.

 

One problem I see is that we don't let things go. It's like we're the person who will never stop bringing up that our significant other cheated on us that one time. Even people who have gotten over the ending of ME3 or never had a problem with it to begin with keep mentioning the controversy and it probably feels to the devs that we're rubbing salt in the old wound. Like the cheater who has supposedly been forgiven, they want us to drop it or stop dating them. And since they can't tell us to drop it without everyone flying off the handle, they are breaking up with us.

 

There is blame to go around. "We are listening" was not a good response, nor was threatening devs. We needed something like the "Truth and Reconciliation" of post-Apartheid South Africa where everyone could speak honestly about how the situation affected them and then hopefully let it go and start over. But it's way too late for that now.

 

So, Bioware, as weird and pretentious as it sounds, I'm sorry and I forgive you. I'm going to play Andomeda and I will try to enjoy or dislike it on its own merits.

And when was the last time anyone changed anything with an Amazon or Metacritic review? The developers have done some really rotten things in the past that they refuse to acknowledge and in so doing give zero indication that we should expect anything different going forward. So no, these things don't persist because we love rubbing salt in the wound they persist because there's no indication of change. The cheater hasn't been forgiven because they've yet to admit they cheated in the first place. As for why we don't simply leave aka "stop dating them", isn't it obvious? Because we still want to make it work, sick fucks that we are. Instead of just leaving now that the forums are being nuked we keep creating new ones. Why? Because we still care.

 

But caring doesn't mean we just take crap indefinitely. And as a company and as creative individuals making a publicly available product, Bioware does not get immunity from criticism. No matter how much they plug their fingers in their ears. The devs make a game that people on the internet will talk about and likely pick apart. This is reality, they need to deal with it. Attacking them personally is another matter of course, but apart from some extreme cases that is not the rule.

[Seraphim24]

Except the worst parts of those acts expired in 1800 and 1801.

 

The bit still in effect hasn't been utilized since 1948

 

Yeah America got over all it's issues with due process and all that a long time ago... Guantanamo never is currently happening or whatever. 

[Steelcan]

Yeah America got over all it's issues with due process and all that a long time ago... Guantanamo never is currently happening or whatever. 

I'd really like to know where you thought I implied the US has no issues with due process.

 

however, I'm inclined to think you are just intent on setting up strawmen and other fallacious arguments and continuing to move the goal posts when called out on it

[LinksOcarina]

As for my "pointless need" to bring Anita Sarkeesian into this discussion, the reason she was brought in is because she sits on the Twitter Trust and Safety Coucil as its head. I used her as a point of reference to represent people who wish deny people their either God given or Constitutionally given right to freedom speech and expression. The fact that she is part of that body is not a "conspiracy theory", it's a damn fact. Now I know people who have delicate eggshell like psyches have a hard time taking facts but that is something they are going to have to get over, and pretty soon might I add.
It's easy to label something "toxic" because it doesn't fit the narrative, but truth is often neither kind nor cuddly soft. And I will continue to drag anyone as example into an open forum for debate,(which is what this is and neither Twitter or Facebook are not) as much as I damn well please. I will "drag" anyone who attempts to circumvent my constitutionally protected right to free speech into any discussion, because Its legal, because if they were attempt it in real life, unfortunately it's still illegal "drag" them into oncoming traffic. Have a great day!

 

That's not how the world works my friend. 

 

First off, you don't have freedom of speech in the way you think you do. Historically and philosophically, there is limits to what you can say or face legal action- the old social contract theory which is the willing allowance of a government to take away some freedoms in exchange for security and safety of the country. It is literally what the United States is founded on.

 

Proof of this, well, I am sure you have heard of the "fire in a crowded building" example, but let's do another in that same vein, can you openly call someone a racial slur in public without repercussions? Realistically you can maybe get away with it, but legally you can be arrested for that in the United States. That is how the social contract works, the founding fathers have set that up as part of the mandate for the Articles of Confederation and later, the Constitution. They also have a caveat; if the government abuses their power you have the right to rebel against them.

 

Remember that point for a second. 

 

So now, to address what you said, Sarkeesian is on the Twitter counsel thing, that is a fact. But that's the only fact you presented. See, what power does Sarkesian really have and how has she used it?  Has there been a mass censuring of speech on twitter, or outright bans of people for what they say? Or is it still full of folks who shout from the rooftops or troll people in 120 characters on all sides?

 

I would argue the latter, along with people posting porn and **** talking in general, but that's what I see from time to time for some reason. I have weird friends. 

 

The issue that is a conspiracy theory is the belief that she is trying to censor anyone on twitter. Even if she did, then all you need to do is not only leave twitter, but go for different forms of social media where she is not in charge and her ideology has no power. If we follow the social contract, if she abuses her position people have that right to rebel against it.

 

You don't rebel in anticipation however. Sarkessian may be a terrible educator and an opportunistic video maker, but she is also not stupid, she can't control everything and the minute she does, she is gone one way or another.

 

So truthfully, you really have no reason to bring her up except your own fear of her, unless you truly believe her to be someone who restricts free speech, which she doesn't. She just calls for censuring speech, not censorship. You dragging her into this is a poor example, because not only is she irrelevant, it doesn't help your case which is not only baseless, but also filled with fear over fact, id say.

 

And one more thing, before you try to drag me into something, just know that you can say whatever you want if you really like. I will just choose to not listen, because frankly you are likely wrong in your assertions regardless of what I say and I don't feel like schooling the irrational on here anymore.

 

As an aside, the way people are trying to use history here is kind of nice, it makes me happy since I am actually a trained historian in that regard, so carry on folks. 

[AlanC9]

I swear, it's worth having this place go down just to never see another rant about Sarkeesian.

[mickymax69]

There are ways for people to learn how to moderate a forum well. It just takes desire and effort - without those the attempt(s) go to waste (toxic waste). Neither of them have been in evidence here for a long time.

 

What some people never understood is that internet fora are not democracies and their "First Amendment" rights do not apply.  It's a lesson that could have been taught to them. I've been a moderator many times and it can be done.

 

There will always be trolls, but you can convince many people to listen and either realize they're wrong, or actually think about what you're saying and slow down and talk.  You can turn volatility and anger into an actual discussion.. but only if you try. Just like with anything else, if you don't try then you have a 100% chance of failure.

 

There are many good, intelligent, and caring folk here and they've always outweighed the number of trolls or angry/rude ones. Simply put, a non-toxic environment takes time to grow - the last thing this place needed was more and more of the old hands-off approach. The further back BioWare retreated, the worse it looked to them. Until now, here we are.

 

What you say is  so right, imo.

The official message is like playing pipe.

Reaching my conclusion, it  brings me to a question :

Why don't  they have not hardened the rules ? simply?

As a person who has  experience (you) as a moderator, do you think it's possible?

Because if they could do it, it's like they have choosen the worst decision.

For me it's all about control, but they are so awkward.

[Jalepeno Fire]

To the OP: Please take your conspiracy theories and your apparent need to pointlessly drag Anita Sarkeesian into a "discussion" (I use that term loosely for your post) of the shutdown of a forum that has nothing to do with Anita Sarkeesian (or feminist issues in general), etc., and go flush them down the nearest toilet ASAP.

 

For the umpteenth time, it really is due to the toxicity of the forums that these forums are being shut down - your post being yet another a case in point. It's all the threads like this one that keep providing more and more evidence as to why the forums are being shut down in the first place. Also, OP, please learn to insert some freaking blank lines between your paragraphs.

Oh, couldn't you of just skipped over Sarkeesian? 

[LinksOcarina]

I swear, it's worth having this place go down just to never see another rant about Sarkeesian.

Unfortunately the internet doesn't forget...well see those rants wherever we go man.

[AlanC9]

Yeah, but I can dream for a few weeks.

@Jalapeno Fire: Yiannopoulos? Really? It's come to that?

[Jalepeno Fire]

One last time for anyone who still doesn't get it:

 

The right to free speech in a free society (The First Amendment in the U.S.) gives you the right to freely speak out against the government without the fear of recrimination by said government. It does not give you the legal right to say whatever you want, about whoever you want, in any space (physical or virtual) that you want with impunity (even in some cases by the government, see: hate speech legislation).

 

Private citizens and organizations that maintain private spaces for discussion (even if the discussion is open to all) are under no obligation to allow you to speak your mind free of restrictions. If you someone wants to shut you up and it's within their power to do so, then they have every right to. It's up to the individual in charge of that forum who decides if, when and how to censor you and I'm glad for that.

 

--- The rest of this post is no longer directed at the confused posterI quoted ---

 

I was sad when I found out the forums were closing but I don't blame BW for flushing it. I soured on the whole experience since a lare portion of the "fans" seemed to turn into a bunch of right-wing nutbags overnight (see: OP). if I wanted to know what those people had to say on the representation of women and minorities in the media, I'd go read Breitbart or something equally as dreadful.

 

Even without the politics, the overwhelming negativity towards the games, the devs, other fans and the industry in general has been leaving a bad taste in my mouth for months. I used to stay and read pages and pages of threads and now I pop in, read the twitter thread and generally leave straight after. Every time I would try and engage in a conversation, the discussion would be overrun by people who I would avoid in real life. I can't even count the number of times, I've started a long though-out reply only to ditch it entirely while thinking, "What's the point? Think about who you're talking to here. You're not changing anyone's mind today."

 

And what makes all of this so hard to stomach for me, and the reason I have closed my browser many times in disgust (open tabs be damned), is that the BW devs who actually take the time to engage with fans (here or elsewhere) are some of the coolest, sweetest, smartest, funniest men and women who also make games that I love. Personality-wise, they are like people I know in real life and choose to be friends with except they also share so many of the same geeky, nerdy and artsy interests as me, which most of my real-life friends do not.

 

There are some real scummy people on this Earth and this is how some so-called fans choose to direct their anger. There is so little civil discourse, no fair and frank debate or even just a good laugh to be had here. What little there was is buried underneath the unadulterated hate.

 

Basically it's just not fun anymore so I guess I'm only sad because I'm mourning the loss of something I haven't really had for a long time.

HuffPost reader I presume? How progressive. 

 

God, I'm really getting sick of this PC crap. If you have a negative opinion on anything nowadays you're a 'right-wing nutjob' a racist, a sexist, a homophobe, a nazi etc, despite the fact that most of the people talking out about this crap are Classical Liberals. 

[Biotic Apostate]

Ultra conservative gay men like Yiannopoulos baffle me. It's like a political/ideological version of the Stockholm syndrome.

[Morty Smith]

Oh man, I don't know OP. That seems kind of out there.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

One last time for anyone who still doesn't get it:

 

The right to free speech in a free society (The First Amendment in the U.S.) gives you the right to freely speak out against the government without the fear of recrimination by said government. It does not give you the legal right to say whatever you want, about whoever you want, in any space (physical or virtual) that you want with impunity (even in some cases by the government, see: hate speech legislation).

 

Private citizens and organizations that maintain private spaces for discussion (even if the discussion is open to all) are under no obligation to allow you to speak your mind free of restrictions. If you someone wants to shut you up and it's within their power to do so, then they have every right to. It's up to the individual in charge of that forum who decides if, when and how to censor you and I'm glad for that.

 

--- The rest of this post is no longer directed at the confused posterI quoted ---

 

I was sad when I found out the forums were closing but I don't blame BW for flushing it. I soured on the whole experience since a lare portion of the "fans" seemed to turn into a bunch of right-wing nutbags overnight (see: OP). if I wanted to know what those people had to say on the representation of women and minorities in the media, I'd go read Breitbart or something equally as dreadful.

 

Even without the politics, the overwhelming negativity towards the games, the devs, other fans and the industry in general has been leaving a bad taste in my mouth for months. I used to stay and read pages and pages of threads and now I pop in, read the twitter thread and generally leave straight after. Every time I would try and engage in a conversation, the discussion would be overrun by people who I would avoid in real life. I can't even count the number of times, I've started a long though-out reply only to ditch it entirely while thinking, "What's the point? Think about who you're talking to here. You're not changing anyone's mind today."

 

And what makes all of this so hard to stomach for me, and the reason I have closed my browser many times in disgust (open tabs be damned), is that the BW devs who actually take the time to engage with fans (here or elsewhere) are some of the coolest, sweetest, smartest, funniest men and women who also make games that I love. Personality-wise, they are like people I know in real life and choose to be friends with except they also share so many of the same geeky, nerdy and artsy interests as me, which most of my real-life friends do not.

 

There are some real scummy people on this Earth and this is how some so-called fans choose to direct their anger. There is so little civil discourse, no fair and frank debate or even just a good laugh to be had here. What little there was is buried underneath the unadulterated hate.

 

Basically it's just not fun anymore so I guess I'm only sad because I'm mourning the loss of something I haven't really had for a long time.

 

I remember a time when someone could come here and say "I enjoyed the social subtext about Mass Effect 3 and here is why" and we could have a smart discussion about it.

 

Now of days it is the same old crap:

"Dragon Age: Inquisition sucks!"

"I'm still butt hurt about the endings to ME3!

"ME:A is going to be crap because of the 3 trailers!"

"I don't like what this writer's political ideology!"

"BioWare is full of SJWs!" (which is hysterical since BioWare has always had SJWs before the term was even coined it was just conservative morons didn't see it until it was became so oblivious that it wasn't worth the effort to hide anymore).

 

So yeah it's getting harder to give a damn about this drama and the various other dramas being played out the new BSN, which I'm going to make a bold prediction the new BSN is going to have some major growing problems before the year is out.   

[Filament]

Ultra conservative gay men like Yiannopoulos baffle me. It's like a political/ideological version of the Stockholm syndrome.

It's the political/ideological embodiment of shitposting.

https://medium.com/w...2932#.briofw2pc