54 réponses à ce sujet

[The Dovahk]

They're going to reference some characters.

[SPACE_GREASER]

There definitely needs to be some kind of data you can you can carry over into the game -it would be minor things but still, I have my doubts that bioware will even bother...

 

 

Would be kind of funny tho if everyone was green in all the ME's from here on out lmao

[slimgrin]

Let it go son, just let it go. 

[Gothfather]

I posted a couple of weeks back why there must always be a Zero state of imports of bioware games ASSUMING they want to continue the save game imports and I showed how the maths get out of hand with just 3 choices over 3 games and they explode at the fourth. Yet my maths were WAY off it is far WORSE than I showed. Take three choices in a game and only these three choices get imported from a game. Well three choices isn't three possible states it is 6 possible states or more and that assumes the three choices are binary but some could be three of more like the geth/quarian crisis, Quarians live, geth live or  both geth and quarians live. But let us assume binary choices.

 

6 states over two games creates 36 possible combinations that makes it hard to write codex entries for just these choice combinations as there are so many variations. Add in a third game and you are seeing 216 possible combinations extend this to a fourth game and 1296 possible combinations. look We all know that there are more than just three choices that get imported with save game transfers but we can see just how insane the maths get with artificially limiting things to just 3 binary choices per game. At some point you have to accept that this process MUST return to a zero state and it has to do so relatively quickly because the maths clearly show just how divergent things get quickly.

 

Each new story arc (assuming multiple game story arcs) should be the point where they say reset to zero. Andromeda is the perfect point upon which to do this.

 

 

Why do I assume that providing maths that prove this cant go on indefinitely wont matter a single bit? People will still expect and demand or be disappointed in bioware for not doing so.

[Sanunes]

I posted a couple of weeks back why there must always be a Zero state of imports of bioware games ASSUMING they want to continue the save game imports and I showed how the maths get out of hand with just 3 choices over 3 games and they explode at the fourth. Yet my maths were WAY off it is far WORSE than I showed. Take three choices in a game and only these three choices get imported from a game. Well three choices isn't three possible states it is 6 possible states or more and that assumes the three choices are binary but some could be three of more like the geth/quarian crisis, Quarians live, geth live or  both geth and quarians live. But let us assume binary choices.

 

6 states over two games creates 36 possible combinations that makes it hard to write codex entries for just these choice combinations as there are so many variations. Add in a third game and you are seeing 216 possible combinations extend this to a fourth game and 1296 possible combinations. look We all know that there are more than just three choices that get imported with save game transfers but we can see just how insane the maths get with artificially limiting things to just 3 binary choices per game. At some point you have to accept that this process MUST return to a zero state and it has to do so relatively quickly because the maths clearly show just how divergent things get quickly.

 

Each new story arc (assuming multiple game story arcs) should be the point where they say reset to zero. Andromeda is the perfect point upon which to do this.

 

 

Why do I assume that providing maths that prove this cant go on indefinitely wont matter a single bit? People will still expect and demand or be disappointed in bioware for not doing so.

 

I agree and in fact the import choices I like the most aren't states, but influence a completely different quest you are one.  The three examples I can think of are the side quest with Conrad Vernor for it references back to the original material, but it is there or it isn't you don't need to write a complete alternative to it because there is a major alteration of course there is the final decision with the Geth/Quarian conflict and also the female Krogan/Mordin Souls with the same principle by using past choices to influence the outcome or how hard it is to achieve the final goal.

 

Another issue I can see with having too many open branches is that expectations of players can get higher because there wasn't a solution in prior games as well with events like the Rachni or the Reaper Baby for they were just regulated to minor elements when people had expectations of it being much more important because it was a major plot element of the game they were part of.

[Innocent Bystander]

Importing choices or world state is a big NO. What they could do however, as a nod to people who played ME3, is simple mentioning thar Reaper War has ended. Something like:

- "We have news from Milky Way, they defeated the Reapers!"
- Ryder: "Yeah, I've heard that they managed to R/G/B."

Then discarding it and never, ever mentioning it again. Just few sentences that have no impact on anything.
But I have no idea if it's possible to check for this on consoles, so it would be probably best to get right to never, ever mentioning anything Miky Way related.

[Big Bad]

There won't be a save transfer.  And there shouldn't. 

[Laughing_Man]

Meh.

 

Most things will be irrelevant anyway, and after the "glorious" ending of ME3 I can't bring myself to care enough about the little details, the magic is gone.

 

If ME:A manages to reignite the passion of original ME theme, great.

 

If not, well, it's not like I have great expectations from Bioware at this point.

[RSX Titan]

I love the idea of carrying over saves game to game but I think the ME trilogy shows just how hard it is to execute even with a 100M budget per game. For that reason I'm okay with ditching it for the next set of games.

[MichaelN7]

I'm of the persuasion that any "true" save-import simply would not be feasible, both due to magnitude and the fact that it's LITERALLY another galaxy.

What I would like to see is a small conversation in the beginning between Ryder and whoever they first meet, and they ask Ryder what they know about Shepard.

It's a Schrodinger's Question (whatever you answer becomes correct)

"Do you think he pulled it off?"
- Of course he did.
- You mean "she", and yes, I do.

- After all, he/she was... (radial menu with 6 options)
- a strong warrior and a powerful biotic
- a skilled technician and a strong biotic
- etc...

- and he/she...
- always tried to do the right thing. (Paragon)
- always tried to be even-handed. (Mixed)
- always did what needed to be done. (Renegade)


It doesn't need to be exactly like that, but a quick little conversation such as this would be all I'd need for a cameo of Shepard.

[UpUpAway]

I'm of the persuasion that any "true" save-import simply would not be feasible, both due to magnitude and the fact that it's LITERALLY another galaxy.

What I would like to see is a small conversation in the beginning between Ryder and whoever they first meet, and they ask Ryder what they know about Shepard.

It's a Schrodinger's Question (whatever you answer becomes correct)

"Do you think he pulled it off?"
- Of course he did.
- You mean "she", and yes, I do.

- After all, he/she was... (radial menu with 6 options)
- a strong warrior and a powerful biotic
- a skilled technician and a strong biotic
- etc...

- and he/she...
- always tried to do the right thing. (Paragon)
- always tried to be even-handed. (Mixed)
- always did what needed to be done. (Renegade)


It doesn't need to be exactly like that, but a quick little conversation such as this would be all I'd need for a cameo of Shepard.

 

Why bother going to all of that for a "cameo" of Shepard?  Many of us have played multiple different Shepards, so are you suggesting that Iwe each play ME:A through multiple times just to give different answers to change out the "cameo" we get?  Since it is highly unlikely that anything I answer in such a conversation would have any material bearing on the actual Andromeda story, I really wouldn't want Bioware to use any computing resources just to "reconstruct" a nostalgic vision of Shepard in Ryder's mind.  If Bioware does put computing resources into a Q&A about Shepard, then whatever "characterization" of Shepard I make up in that conversation better have a serious impact on the sort of character my Ryder becomes... and then I'm not sure most people would want that sort of thing (i.e. where Shepard was some sort of mental mentor for Ryder). 

 

I still feel the best chance Bioware has of giving us a great story in ME:A is if people would just allow them to leave the old story behind completely and start us fresh with a new story and new characters that are no in any way connected to the old ones.  I'm sorry, I really just don't get the insistence that Bioware bring forward a separate old story for nostalgia's sake... especially when doing so will likely detract from the quality of the new story.

[The Dovahk]

Importing choices or world state is a big NO. What they could do however, as a nod to people who played ME3, is simple mentioning thar Reaper War has ended. Something like:

- "We have news from Milky Way, they defeated the Reapers!"
- Ryder: "Yeah, I've heard that they managed to R/G/B."

Then discarding it and never, ever mentioning it again. Just few sentences that have no impact on anything.
But I have no idea if it's possible to check for this on consoles, so it would be probably best to get right to never, ever mentioning anything Miky Way related.

The Milky Way will most likely be mentioned. Some characters will be getting references to.

[Reorte]

No save transfer please. The only reason for going to Andromeda will be to avoid having to do just that. Other people have already said it, it becomes far too much to handle if nothing else. Every new story (of which ME1 - 3 were one story) needs a clean slate. Within the story choices should carry over, but need to be planned carefully from the start. And because of that choices that affect the setting in general shouldn't be possible (or at the very least shouldn't have any long-term consequences, so it's just as meaningful to have a fixed startup for the next story). Anything else simply isn't even remotely practical, and the more detail you want in your setting the worse that gets.

[The Dank Warden]

Don't they have quantum entanglement stuff in the ark connected to one back on Earth or the Citadel?

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

A keep type questionnaire would be perfect. They had the chance to do that in ME2 but limited it to only the council question. A decision they retconned anyway so Anderson and Udina could play their defined roles in ME3.

[Gothfather]

I agree and in fact the import choices I like the most aren't states, but influence a completely different quest you are one.  The three examples I can think of are the side quest with Conrad Vernor for it references back to the original material, but it is there or it isn't you don't need to write a complete alternative to it because there is a major alteration of course there is the final decision with the Geth/Quarian conflict and also the female Krogan/Mordin Souls with the same principle by using past choices to influence the outcome or how hard it is to achieve the final goal.

 

Another issue I can see with having too many open branches is that expectations of players can get higher because there wasn't a solution in prior games as well with events like the Rachni or the Reaper Baby for they were just regulated to minor elements when people had expectations of it being much more important because it was a major plot element of the game they were part of.

 

You are missing the point entirely "states" isn't based on scope here it is simply a possible choice made .Every binary choice creates 2 to power of the number of total choices imported. It doesn't take long for 2 times 2 times 2 times 2 et. to reach insane numbers. And Again this is artificially truncated to demonstration purposes as many choices are not limited to binary results.

 

Choice 1 You can have A result or B result. This creates two states even if one state is nothing that still has to be factored into things.

 

Choice 2 You have either C result or D result. Again two more "states" are created by this magnifies things to the following

 

 

Possible choice combos or "states"

 

AC, BC, AD, BD

 

What happens at 3 binary choices?

 

Choice 3 You pick either E result or F result.

 

So what are the possible combos?

 

ACE, ACF, ADE, ADF, BCE, BCF, BDE, BDF

 

Already we have 8 bloody combos or information that the next game HAS to include or address or whatever and that is only ONE game with 3 binary choices. The maths get out of had for people like yourself to hold on to the fantasy that biowre could just do it with minor changes or what not.

 

After two games if we really want to do the maths right and not do the short hand I did we would have 2^6 different possible combinations which is 64 different combos after just 2 games with only 3 binary choices imported. Extend this to 3 games and it is 2^9 different combos a player could make in all those choices and that many divergent choices,  512 is getting insane with just 3 binary choices. Hell just mentioning Shepard's Sex, background and class creates 36 possible combos and that isn't even getting past Shepard's base starting point actual game play choices.

 

The MATHS period mean you MUST stop the cycle at some point, you can not continue to create flags and toggles that include or exclude various codex mentions cameos or what not. These are using maths with artificially SMALL imports. Most games import dozen of aspects and that makes the maths worse. I am trying to show gamers just how unreasonable this desire is, not because the idea of imports are unreasonable but because the MATHS, a neutral unemotional arbitrator, just makes any kind of imports into a fourth game unrealistic. It doesn't matter how trivial or small or insignificant the choices is, the amount of work creating toggles and code to manage these imports gets out of hand quickly.

 

Look 5 binary choices per game and 5 choices isn't even twice the as many a 3 I showed before creates 32 different possible results these 5 choices can create that need to be imported into the next game after 2 this balloons to 1024, can you see the progression yet? Three games and it is an unwieldy 32,768 possible combinations a player could have made with just 5 choices per game being imported. That is a lot to have to manage under the hood just so player can get a cameo or a minor mention. Yet 4 games makes this completely insane at over a million different combos. Exponential maths just can't be sustain which is what players are asking Bioware to do doesn't matter how big or small the choice is the different possible "states" balloon so quickly that it HAS to reset at zero at some point.

 

Again these are examples where the imports are ARTIFICIALLY  lower than the actual real games would be so show you CAN'T keep doing this. I don't understand why gamers just refuse to accept facts. Facts are not the 'talking points' of the opposing opinion. Facts are neutral, they are what they are, they don't pick a side.

 

I get the desire of the imported safe. I LIKE the idea but it MUST reset after relatively short intervals because the MATHS do not allow you to continue regardless of desire or opinion or any other bullsh!t.

 

And  I said it wouldn't matter that I quickly showed the maths (with rounded numbers for fast calculations in my head without using a calculator,) in the previous posts that showed how fast things balloon I KNEW gamers, because they are so fraking unreasonable, would refuse to accept it. Well done showing why these forums need to DIE. When gamers refuse even maths you know there is no hope any more. Just a bunch of toddlers stomping their feet acting like MATHS don't count because their desire for a thing supersedes all.

[Gothfather]

Don't they have quantum entanglement stuff in the ark connected to one back on Earth or the Citadel?

 

Assuming the arks left before the reapers war reaches its climax there is every reason NOT to include them. If your plan to survive the reaper threat is to escape you have to assume the worse case scenario and that would be the capture of the citadel and defeat of the milky way. Your protection in this scenario is if the reapers don't know you exist at all. Quantum entanglement systems come in pairs which means if you capturer one you know the other exists. This makes the arks vulnerable to reaper discovery at best or at worse vulnerable to reapers efforts to find the arks and destroying them. Also indoctrination makes the Milky way side of things vulnerable. You indoctrinate the MW operator and you can spy on the arks and may very well be able to find them should someone slip up. Indoctrination was known about anytime after me1 so a project protecting against such a threat isn't unreasonable.

 

The best defence of the arks is to have them created under the cover of evacuation ships and actually have some of the 'arks' built for said purpose while the 'real' arks leave in secret and all records of their construction is purged but you have actual ships built that you can point to to deflect people away from the real purpose. This is what the British did with the tank. They build the tank under the guise of a water tank and actually had water tanks made for the outside of the factory to hide the real purpose of the tank. That is why we call tanks, tanks because of that fiction.

[Sanunes]

Spoiler

You are missing the point entirely "states" isn't based on scope here it is simply a possible choice made .Every binary choice creates 2 to power of the number of total choices imported. It doesn't take long for 2 times 2 times 2 times 2 et. to reach insane numbers. And Again this is artificially truncated to demonstration purposes as many choices are not limited to binary results.

 

Choice 1 You can have A result or B result. This creates two states even if one state is nothing that still has to be factored into things.

 

Choice 2 You have either C result or D result. Again two more "states" are created by this magnifies things to the following

 

 

Possible choice combos or "states"

 

AC, BC, AD, BD

 

What happens at 3 binary choices?

 

Choice 3 You pick either E result or F result.

 

So what are the possible combos?

 

ACE, ACF, ADE, ADF, BCE, BCF, BDE, BDF

 

Already we have 8 bloody combos or information that the next game HAS to include or address or whatever and that is only ONE game with 3 binary choices. The maths get out of had for people like yourself to hold on to the fantasy that biowre could just do it with minor changes or what not.

 

After two games if we really want to do the maths right and not do the short hand I did we would have 2^6 different possible combinations which is 64 different combos after just 2 games with only 3 binary choices imported. Extend this to 3 games and it is 2^9 different combos a player could make in all those choices and that many divergent choices,  512 is getting insane with just 3 binary choices. Hell just mentioning Shepard's Sex, background and class creates 36 possible combos and that isn't even getting past Shepard's base starting point actual game play choices.

 

The MATHS period mean you MUST stop the cycle at some point, you can not continue to create flags and toggles that include or exclude various codex mentions cameos or what not. These are using maths with artificially SMALL imports. Most games import dozen of aspects and that makes the maths worse. I am trying to show gamers just how unreasonable this desire is, not because the idea of imports are unreasonable but because the MATHS, a neutral unemotional arbitrator, just makes any kind of imports into a fourth game unrealistic. It doesn't matter how trivial or small or insignificant the choices is, the amount of work creating toggles and code to manage these imports gets out of hand quickly.

 

Look 5 binary choices per game and 5 choices isn't even twice the as many a 3 I showed before creates 32 different possible results these 5 choices can create that need to be imported into the next game after 2 this balloons to 1024, can you see the progression yet? Three games and it is an unwieldy 32,768 possible combinations a player could have made with just 5 choices per game being imported. That is a lot to have to manage under the hood just so player can get a cameo or a minor mention. Yet 4 games makes this completely insane at over a million different combos. Exponential maths just can't be sustain which is what players are asking Bioware to do doesn't matter how big or small the choice is the different possible "states" balloon so quickly that it HAS to reset at zero at some point.

 

Again these are examples where the imports are ARTIFICIALLY  lower than the actual real games would be so show you CAN'T keep doing this. I don't understand why gamers just refuse to accept facts. Facts are not the 'talking points' of the opposing opinion. Facts are neutral, they are what they are, they don't pick a side.

 

I get the desire of the imported safe. I LIKE the idea but it MUST reset after relatively short intervals because the MATHS do not allow you to continue regardless of desire or opinion or any other bullsh!t.

 

And  I said it wouldn't matter that I quickly showed the maths (with rounded numbers for fast calculations in my head without using a calculator,) in the previous posts that showed how fast things balloon I KNEW gamers, because they are so fraking unreasonable, would refuse to accept it. Well done showing why these forums need to DIE. When gamers refuse even maths you know there is no hope any more. Just a bunch of toddlers stomping their feet acting like MATHS don't count because their desire for a thing supersedes all.

 

I was trying to agree with what you were saying, but I guess I worded it wrong.

 

What I liked about how The Witcher 2 progressed was that it had two major choices in the game itself, now I could be remembering it wrong as well.  From what I remember there were two major choices, choice A and a choice B and each choice leads you on a different path in the game, but by the time choice A reaches choice B it the overall outcome is the same, the same when going from the time choice B is made and you reach the end of the game.  So going on to the next game you really only have a canon outcome from both choices since they wind up in the same spot.

 

Going to Mass Effect 1 a way to have a similar outcome using Noveria as an example would be to have the same two option on the planet, but if you free the Queen instead of her just disappearing she helps at the Battle of the Citadel and perhaps as a benefit removes an optional phase to the Saren fight for she is distracting Soverign and during that distraction she is killed.  So going into Mass Effect 2 the path is the same with the Rachni Queen is dead.

 

My comments about the quest with Conrad Vernor was just that they pulled random data from the game files to give an easter egg that gives the feeling on continuity so if you haven't done that content there is dialogue, but it is a success or failure outcome, but there really isn't an overall impact.

[UpUpAway]

I was trying to agree with what you were saying, but I guess I worded it wrong.

 

What I liked about how The Witcher 2 progressed was that it had two major choices in the game itself, now I could be remembering it wrong as well.  From what I remember there were two major choices, choice A and a choice B and each choice leads you on a different path in the game, but by the time choice A reaches choice B it the overall outcome is the same, the same when going from the time choice B is made and you reach the end of the game.  So going on to the next game you really only have a canon outcome from both choices since they wind up in the same spot.

 

Going to Mass Effect 1 a way to have a similar outcome using Noveria as an example would be to have the same two option on the planet, but if you free the Queen instead of her just disappearing she helps at the Battle of the Citadel and perhaps as a benefit removes an optional phase to the Saren fight for she is distracting Soverign and during that distraction she is killed.  So going into Mass Effect 2 the path is the same with the Rachni Queen is dead.

 

My comments about the quest with Conrad Vernor was just that they pulled random data from the game files to give an easter egg that gives the feeling on continuity so if you haven't done that content there is dialogue, but it is a success or failure outcome, but there really isn't an overall impact.

 

To me, a big difference is that we were still within the same story throughout the ME Trilogy, but now we're starting an entirely different story.  I don't want to see Bioware hamstring that story by trying to make connection after connection with the old one.  IMO, that's just going to make the new story more likely to continue on with the weaknesses of the old one. 

 

I would rather Bioware focus their energies and the available computer resources (which is determined by the smallest system we want this game to be able to run on) on better tracking the decisions we make in Andromeda... on things like making the romances seem more natural and less formulaic... on having NPCs recognize the differences in Ryder's class... or in responding to the differences/changes in Ryder's abilities or characterization over the course of this new story.  If they have 10 or 100 or 1000 tags that they're not using... I'd rather see them go back and add another relevant decision to the new story or make a decision flow through the game in a more consistent way... not add a Q&A session at the front for the sole purpose of having a Shepard "cameo" in the game.  I don't need to re-visit The Shepard in ME:A... I can go back an play the ME Trilogy again if I want to do that.

[SofaJockey]

If, as many assume. MEA kicks off before the Reapers arrive at Earth (shortly or sometime after 'Arrival'),

ME trilogy will reference events or characters guaranteed to be alive at the end of ME2.

 

I would expect some sort of save state mechanic will be used going into ME5(MEA2) tracking the events of MEA.

 

But we don't need one going into MEA.

[Sanunes]

To me, a big difference is that we were still within the same story throughout the ME Trilogy, but now we're starting an entirely different story.  I don't want to see Bioware hamstring that story by trying to make connection after connection with the old one.  IMO, that's just going to make the new story more likely to continue on with the weaknesses of the old one. 

 

I would rather Bioware focus their energies and the available computer resources (which is determined by the smallest system we want this game to be able to run on) on better tracking the decisions we make in Andromeda... on things like making the romances seem more natural and less formulaic... on having NPCs recognize the differences in Ryder's class... or in responding to the differences/changes in Ryder's abilities or characterization over the course of this new story.  If they have 10 or 100 or 1000 tags that they're not using... I'd rather see them go back and add another relevant decision to the new story or make a decision flow through the game in a more consistent way... not add a Q&A session at the front for the sole purpose of having a Shepard "cameo" in the game.  I don't need to re-visit The Shepard in ME:A... I can go back an play the ME Trilogy again if I want to do that.

 

I never intended to apply that I wanted to have choices make it into Andromeda, just how I think they could be handled better in the future.  For I want a clean slate for the imports of the previous games are a mess.

[capn233]

This would be cool, but probably won't happen.

 

Or maybe they will troll everyone and just import whether or not you got the Elkoss Combine license in ME1.

[Innocent Bystander]

@Godfather: There's a lot of choices that are just plain binary. If you save Gianna Parasini i ME1, you'll encounter her in ME2, if you don't, you won't. But I'll agree that a lot of choices worth importing are of the multiplicative kind.

As far as QEC, there are people that know about Arks already, so adding QECs to them present no significant risk added. Or their MW part can be rigged with some sort of a dead man switch. Or <insert whatever plot device to justify it>. But I would again agree that they aren't necessary.

[Oldren Shepard]

No there won't be.

https://forum.biowar...ll-the-e3-info/

 

• There will be some, but not much references to the old games, instead the whole point of Andromeda is creating room 'to look forward'

[rocklikeafool]

I hope there isn't because there's no need for it.