24 réponses à ce sujet

[Eshiaya]

Hi all,

Hope everyone is well.

I'm interested in getting the World of Thedas books, but I wanted to ask if it is worth buying both editions or does the second volume contain everything in the first? Thanks.

[Andraste_Reborn]

The contents are completely different - the first book is more focused on general setting information (about different nations, religion, magic, etc.) while the second is more focused on the characters. With bonus stories and recipes! If you can get both, I would recommend that. I thought the second book was more fun than the first, but the first is still well worth reading.

[vertigomez]

The contents are completely different - the first book is more focused on general setting information (about different nations, religion, magic, etc.) while the second is more focused on the characters. With bonus stories and recipes! If you can get both, I would recommend that. I thought the second book was more fun than the first, but the first is still well worth reading.

Ditto. The second edition has revisions to the timeline (the first was a little wonky in that regard). But generally they're very different books and worth the price if you're really into the setting and can afford it.

[thats1evildude]

The second book has a lot more character-specific information. There are anecdotes and personal histories of virtually every major character to appear in Dragon Age thus far.

[nightscrawl]

Just FYI, if you don't want physical books for whatever reason, you can buy digital versions from Darkhorse as well. They also have a digital version of The Art of Dragon Age: Inquisition, which is gorgeous and highly recommended.

[NRO TYN]

Yeah I would also agree with the above statements, the 2nd Vol has way more meat on the bone in terms of content. Tho I own both ( I just consume EVERYTHING DA ) I tend to reread the 2nd Vol more then the 1st.

[Dai Grepher]

Don't buy them. Both are full of incorrect information that contradicts the canon of the games.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Don't buy them. Both are full of incorrect information that contradicts the canon of the games.

Aka they contain information that contradicts my headcanon

[Gervaise]

To be fair to Dai, there are contradictory passages in the lore books.   For example, the history of Marethari given in WoT2 doesn't match with the history of the clan given in DAO for a Dalish Warden.  Mahariel's father was meant to have been the Keeper of the clan before Marethari but on the basis of the dates given in WoT2, that would mean the Warden had to be around 48 at the start of the game.   That is not the impression you are given in game, when you seem pretty much of an age with Alistair or a little bit older.  

 

There are even contradictory passages within the same lore book.   Try looking at the history of Dorian compared with the history of Alexius.  

 

Still I found a lot of interest in the lore books.   I just think it is a pity that the editors weren't a bit more careful in checking the accuracy between lore books and in comparison with the games.  

 

Another source of information you might find interesting is the Core Rule Book for the table top game, which is now available to download for free on-line.   Again, there is some information which seems to contradict the other lore books but in all cases the idea was that where discrepancies appear, this is down to different scholars' research.    So much information in World of Thedas 1 is from a Chantry historian's point of view, whereas the Core Rule Book is a bit more impartial.    Looking head, the differences can be helpful in trying to anticipate what the truth will ultimately be revealed to be.

[Dai Grepher]

Aka they contain information that contradicts my headcanon

I have almost zero knowledge of the Dalish origin story, and others have pointed out how WoT2 contradicts it. So it has nothing to do with my headcanon.

Another example is Eleanor Cousland. WoT2 makes it seem like she took command of her own ship at 15 years of age, which is hogwash on its face, but the story then goes on to make it seem like Bryce and Eleanor are in their 40s in Origins, which is not possible based on their aged appearance as well as Highever Castle's backstory.

In this case I have a concept of what life was like for my Cousland, but this "headcanon" was all based on the facts I learned WHILE PLAYING ORIGINS. I didn't just make it up, it's in the game, and my character's backstory was formed on the basis of those facts. WoT2 contradicts the facts, and WoT1 was even amended online to correct numerous mistakes that the writers discovered after it was published.

[Squinterific]

 

There are even contradictory passages within the same lore book.   Try looking at the history of Dorian compared with the history of Alexius.  

 

Oh, could you please be more specific?  What do they mess up? Unfortunately I don't have the books

[Iakus]

Oh, could you please be more specific?  What do they mess up? Unfortunately I don't have the books

World of Thedas Vol 1 errata:

 

http://blog.bioware....me-1-an-errata/

[Gervaise]

Regarding the history of Dorian:

 

In game the codex says that Alexius was still addressing the Magisterium regarding the lack of funding for education in 9:39.   This suggests that he is still operating normally then and Felix has not yet been infected with the Blight since Dorian says once that happened he lost interest in anything else.  From what Dorian says, Alexius felt guilty at not being with his wife and son when they were attacked.  The conversations with Dorian suggest that he was simply disenchanted with the fact that Alexius was no longer interested in his career because of depression, left Alexius and then later was contacted by him, causing him to follow him south.   So it implies everything occurring within a maximum of 18 month to 2 year time frame before you encounter them in DAI.

 

The history for Alexius says that he recruited Dorian from the Minrathous Circle where he was a gifted student.    Then in 9:38 Alexius and his wife travelled to Val Royeaux, where Felix was attending university, in order to travel back with him to Minrathous.   Whilst crossing southern Tevinter they were attacked by darkspawn, Livia was killed and Felix infected.   Note that in this version Alexius was with them when it happened.    Thereafter it seems to confirm Dorian's version in game.   Dorian was attempting to continue their research but Alexius was increasingly "distant and strange."

 

The history for Dorian is quite different.  At the time Alexius took Dorian under his wing he had dropped out of a school run by the Order of Argent and gone missing in the slums of Minrathous for 3 months.   Alexius came upon him by accident in a brothel (it is not clear if Dorian was a client or worker).   He dragged him back to his home in the Gilded Quarter and during the journey Dorian opened up about why he was behaving as he was.   Alexius recognised the potential in Dorian and took him on as his apprentice, tutoring him personally  at his estate in Asariel.   Only later did Dorian join the Minrathous Circle, although it is possible that he was always considered part of it while receiving schooling from Alexius.   Dorian went from strength to strength under Alexius' care, being sponsored to full Enchanter status at the Circle by Alexius and not apparently having any problems in his private life, due to his work with Alexius keeping his parents at bay.   Then in 9:35 the attack occurred that killed Livia and infected Felix.   Rather than simply becoming apathetic about everything, Alexius in fact became obsessed with finding a cure for his son (confirmed by the game).  Indeed apparently he and Dorian came up with something that put the disease into remission by 6 years given we do not encounter Alexius and  Felix the first time until around Harvestmere 9:41.   This is quite an achievement in itself and totally unprecedented from anything we have previously been told.   However, this was not enough for Alexius and he refocused his efforts on time magic to try and cure his son.  Dorian puts up with the constant pressure to make this work until 9:37 when he storms out.   He goes on a drinking spree, then thinks better of it, returns to the estate to find Alexius and Felix already gone.   He sinks back into his former ways, is kidnapped by his father, held prisoner on his estate for months, before finally fleeing sometime in 9:38.   Then for 2 years Dorian dosses around the Imperium, living off the funds from distant relatives and whoever will take him in, before finally receiving a letter from Alexius certainly expressing Venatori sentiments, if not actually inviting him to join.   So in late 9:40 to early 9:41 he follows Alexius and Felix south.

 

Now whilst you can understand why Dorian would not wish to reveal all the details of his sordid past and so might skirt over the precise details of events when recounting his history, you'd think editors could at least ensure some consistency within their own book concerning the history of these two characters.    In Dorian's history Felix had been ill for 2 years when Dorian leaves Alexius and yet this is still one year before Felix is even harmed in Alexius' history of events.    It cannot simply be a case of mistyping dates because of all the events given in Dorian's history to back up the sequence.     Also Dorian quite clearly tells the Inquisitor that Alexius felt guilty because he wasn't there to protect his wife and son, yet both the versions in WoT2 say he was, making Dorian seem a liar.   Who wrote these biographies?   Why didn't they check they matched what was in game for these characters?    They didn't need to play it, just check the relevant scripts and codices.   That is what I find so disappointing.

[Dai Grepher]

Cash cow mentality. BioWare turned it over to fanfiction writers to make a quick buck.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Cash cow mentality. BioWare turned it over to fanfiction writers to make a quick buck.

 

Erm, no. The chief writer on both books was Ben Gelinas, who was one of the editors on the games and is actually their internal lore master as well, last I heard. The rest of the writing was done by the DA writing team, plus Joanna Berry and Ann Lemay. (Joanna is one of the SWTOR writers. Lemay worked on ME3 and I'm not sure what project she's on now.)

 

I think the continuity errors are largely down to none of the BioWare writers being able to count to save themselves. It's not like the problem is isolated to these two lore books. I mean, nothing in either volume is worse than Anders being in two places at once during Awakening and DA2, or the inconsistency about when The Calling is set and the confusion that caused about Alistair's backstory. Never mind minor stuff like Arl Eamon having two dads.

[Gervaise]

The thing is I thought originally there was meant to be some sort of "bible" of lore and basic story they were meant to be following, so anyone working on the game or associated material could refer back to it to ensure they were being consistent with what went on before.    That is what should happen anyway.    Sadly it would seem that this is not the case and the nearest you get to a check is running something past the writing team and if they think it is cool, that is sufficient.   I know the World of Thedas is meant to be evolving as it goes along but there comes a point where historical viewpoint of a certain group or incomplete records  to explain discrepancies just stops being credible.  

 

Sadly the writers aren't even aware of these things unless someone thinks to tell them on Twitter, since we now understand they don't come here any more.  Still it will be interesting to see how they mess with the lore again in the next game.   It will also make a change to have people in Tevinter, rather than elves, sounding ignorant about their own history.   Mind you, that has already been set up partially by some of Dorian's dialogue in game.    How on earth could he claim that the Tevinter Altus thought their countrymen weren't responsible for the Blights when it was Hessarian who actually pointed the finger?  

[Dai Grepher]

Erm, no. The chief writer on both books was Ben Gelinas, who was one of the editors on the games and is actually their internal lore master as well, last I heard. The rest of the writing was done by the DA writing team, plus Joanna Berry and Ann Lemay. (Joanna is one of the SWTOR writers. Lemay worked on ME3 and I'm not sure what project she's on now.)

Ghost writers are commonplace.
 

I think the continuity errors are largely down to none of the BioWare writers being able to count to save themselves. It's not like the problem is isolated to these two lore books. I mean, nothing in either volume is worse than Anders being in two places at once during Awakening and DA2, or the inconsistency about when The Calling is set and the confusion that caused about Alistair's backstory. Never mind minor stuff like Arl Eamon having two dads.

Right, they are ignorant of their own lore outside WoT as well.

Alistair's backstory was messed up by Gaider himself, so that's an example against the writers in general rather than WoT specifically.

And of course now we have Weekes' attempt to rewrite the Qunari.

I think BioWare should sell Dragon Age to a competent video game company.

[Sifr]

And of course now we have Weekes' attempt to rewrite the Qunari.

 

You mean, "Dai Grepher's attempt to rewrite Patrick Weekes and the Qunari".

 

Just because you don't understand the Qunari, does not mean they're inconsistent. They've always been portrayed from the start as saying one thing and doing another, in addition to exploiting loopholes in the Qun as means to justify their behaviour and actions.

 

As Bull states in DAI, even the Qunari can't always figure out the Qun, that's what the priesthood is for.

[Dai Grepher]

I'm not referring to anything in Trespasser. I'm referring to the Qunari's stance on gender, gender roles, and purpose. I don't "rewrite" anything. I posted what Sten said word for word when those discussions were being had.

[Sifr]

I'm not referring to anything in Trespasser. I'm referring to the Qunari's stance on gender, gender roles, and purpose. I don't "rewrite" anything. I posted what Sten said word for word when those discussions were being had.

 

Ever think that Sten might be merely a ultra-conservative Qunari who does not understand or accept concepts of gender identity or fluidity? Throughout Origins we saw that he's got a very rigid view of how people are, how they should act and how the Qun works?

 

As much as I like Sten, honestly, it's not out-of-character for him to be the kind of guy who'd refuse to accept Mae as a woman and Krem as a man. Especially not when compared to someone like Bull, who's shown to be far more liberal and understands that not everything or everyone can be categorised or filed into neat little boxes.

 

Sten probably would even frown on Bull having sex with non-Qunari, even if he's technically not breaking any rules since he's not trying to procreate with someone of a different species. Bull seems to suggest that casual sex even under the Qun is only with the same species, so accidental pregnancies are at least manageable and hybrids never occur.

 

Tallis, Bull and Gatt all seem to understand the necessity for nuance in the Qun, whereas Sten, Raasan, Viddasala and the Arishok are far rigid in their thinking and interpretation of it. Basically, we've seen evidence that some Qunari are more conservative - or at least more orthodox - than others.

[Andraste_Reborn]

Ghost writers are commonplace.

 

I don't think it's necessary to invoke ghost fanfiction writers to explain why a bunch of people who have never shown much ability to keep track of dates can't keep track of dates. Occam's razor seems to suggest that they just can't count.

[Dai Grepher]

Ever think that Sten might be merely a ultra-conservative Qunari who does not understand or accept concepts of gender identity or fluidity? Throughout Origins we saw that he's got a very rigid view of how people are, how they should act and how the Qun works?

That's exactly what I think. And since Sten is ultra-conservative it means he is ultra-correct in what the Qun actually dictates. He was taught what to believe by the tamassrans and he accepts it all as fact. There is no bending or breaking of the rules as is the case with Hissrad, Gatt, and Tallis. Gatt even says that he sticks with the Qun because if he leaves then the parts he doesn't like about it will never change. He thinks that the Qun can change given enough time and persuasion of the Ariqun. Hissrad is not a true believer in the Qun. He dislikes some parts of it and wants it to change to suit his preferences. So he isn't above lying to the Inquisitor about what the Qun actually dictates.

As much as I like Sten, honestly, it's not out-of-character for him to be the kind of guy who'd refuse to accept Mae as a woman and Krem as a man. Especially not when compared to someone like Bull, who's shown to be far more liberal and understands that not everything or everyone can be categorised or filed into neat little boxes.

Yeah, he isn't, and the reason is because the Qun does not accept Tilani or Krem as the genders they perceive themselves to be.

Hissrad being liberal-minded means he is not in alignment with the Qun. Weekes and even Gaider to an extent would have us believe that Hissrad's beliefs indicate that the Qun is open to various interpretations. It is not.

Sten probably would even frown on Bull having sex with non-Qunari, even if he's technically not breaking any rules since he's not trying to procreate with someone of a different species. Bull seems to suggest that casual sex even under the Qun is only with the same species, so accidental pregnancies are at least manageable and hybrids never occur.

My take is that sex is only for procreation, and only at the order of the tamassrans. Hissrad's attitude toward sex is likely a violation of the Qun, but he is permitted to engage in the behavior provided it serves the purpose of advancing his mission to spy and infiltrate. His claims about the tamassrans popping corks is also most likely a lie.

Tallis, Bull and Gatt all seem to understand the necessity for nuance in the Qun, whereas Sten, Raasan, Viddasala and the Arishok are far rigid in their thinking and interpretation of it. Basically, we've seen evidence that some Qunari are more conservative - or at least more orthodox - than others.

Hissrad, Gatt, and Tallis see the necessity for nuance in the bas lands. There is no evidence that their liberal concepts have any basis in the Qun.

Gatt even tells Hissrad that he isn't going to give him a hard time about how he's showing the Inquisition classified information from the Ben-Hassrath. He tells him that he understands how it works out there in the field. But the implication is that those back home are not pleased about Hissrad's methods.

[Gervaise]

I think you have your answer just there in saying that Sten (now Arishok), the former Arishok, Raasan and Viddasala are all Orthordox Qunari, who were born and raised under the Qun and not expected to blend in outside it, whereas Bull, Gatt and Tallis are agents and spies out in the field.   The latter two were born and raised outside the Qun, so have not been conditioned in the same way as those always part of it.   They have accepted the Qun but they are still mastering themselves.   The Ben-Hassrath would understand this.   So long as they remain loyal and are not influencing others with their questioning, then they will be allowed a bit of latitude.   This doesn't mean their ideas are acceptable to Orthodox Qunari, just that it is deemed expedient to allow them for the time being.  

 

Bull was a special case and I think it is obvious that the leadership's offer of an alliance with the Inquisition was as much to test his loyalty as the Inquisitor's trustworthiness.   Gatt may not be aware of it but I think the whole thing was a set up.   The Ben-Hassrath were worried about how much Bull was enjoying his lifestyle and how close he was getting to his mercenary band.  

 

I also feel that Bull isn't totally straight forward about how things are in the Qun.   A specific example is what he says about how the mages you know, and the Inquisitor themselves if a mage, would fair under the Qun.   Bull is a former enforcer for the Ben-Hassrath and so there is no way he would be ignorant about using qamek on mages not raised under the Qun.   This is an absolute and there are no exceptions.    Yet he never mentions it.     That doesn't meant the Qunari rules on such things have changed, just that he doesn't wish to reveal it, or possibly even confront it himself.

[Sifr]

 

That's exactly what I think. And since Sten is ultra-conservative it means he is ultra-correct in what the Qun actually dictates.

 

The amount of things that ultra-conservatives believe they are "ultra-correct" about, compared to those that are actually true, could fit into a very small book. On a seemingly unrelated note, the Tome of Koslun happens to be rather large.

 

Just because the Qun has adherents who might have twisted a philosophy of reason, enlightenment and seeking purpose into something excessively dogmatic and rigid, does not actually mean the philosophy itself states these things or lacks any kind of nuance to it.

 

From what we're told of him, Koslun sought to create a new philosophy, not a religious doctrine.

 

Yeah, he isn't, and the reason is because the Qun does not accept Tilani or Krem as the genders they perceive themselves to be.

 

Just because Sten and you don't accept Mae or Krem's gender identity, does not necessarily mean the Qun doesn't.

 

Hissrad being liberal-minded means he is not in alignment with the Qun. Weekes and even Gaider to an extent would have us believe that Hissrad's beliefs indicate that the Qun is open to various interpretations. It is not.

 

Again, the Qun was written as a philosophical text about self-improvement and how society can become greater than the sum of it's parts. We have no idea if the extremely conservative and orthodox Qunari haven't caused the text to be reinterpreted to suit a particular ideology. Our own history is filled with examples of ideas being taken by others and twisted until they were almost unrecognisable from what they started as.

 

If you were to actually read the Tome of Koslun, it might be very different from the interpretation and way the Qunari implement it.

 

My take is that sex is only for procreation, and only at the order of the tamassrans. Hissrad's attitude toward sex is likely a violation of the Qun, but he is permitted to engage in the behavior provided it serves the purpose of advancing his mission to spy and infiltrate. His claims about the tamassrans popping corks is also most likely a lie.

 

What Bull says about the Tamrassans does not violate any rules or go against the idea of a strict breeding program, if steps are taken to ensure that conception does not take place and coupling takes place only with the same species. Wynne mentioned that contraceptives exist in Thedas, so it's like the Qunari have access to something similar in the rare case that an unwanted pregnancy does occur.

 

In the case of unwanted pregnancies, the Qunari could terminate the pregnancy to avoid throwing off their eugenics program. But as we're often told they don't like to throw anything away if they can, they might have those children become labourers and barred from breeding, thus keeping their gene pool as desired.

 

Hissrad, Gatt, and Tallis see the necessity for nuance in the bas lands. There is no evidence that their liberal concepts have any basis in the Qun.

 

There is no evidence that the conservative concepts are actually written in the Qun either, or just opinions that certain Qunari hold to be true.

[NRO TYN]

This is a very interesting debate going on