269 réponses à ce sujet

[pacer90]

Alocormin wrote...

Da Mecca wrote...

Indeed.


Liara's case is just sad. She's changed so much she's not the same woman my Shep fell in love with anymore.

Consumed by anger, driven by hate. I walked away from her office truly stunned at what she's become. She said she wouldn't become her mother but she's so close it's not even funny.

Her mother was possessed by indoctrination.  Everything else about her was admirable.

Some people are upset by her apparent change, I love it.  I'm looking forward to seeing what happens with her and the shadow broker.  I suspect that'll be an important part of how ME3 plays out.

Agreed. If Liara was the same people would be complaining that she was a flat boring character. Now there is conflict and problems. IF YOU HEAR HER LITTLE SPEECH ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED it's obvious you still matter and are important. It's a push away 2 steps pull back 1 step thing going on, in ME3 you gotta get back that last step.

Ashley/Kaiden weren't as compelling though... that was unfortunate.

[MICHELLE7]

yoshibb wrote...

Does anyone understand the hell these three have been through? Garrus, Tali, and Wrex moved on just fine for the most part, but Liara and Ash/Kaiden seem to have really suffered. I haven't read Ash's email but Kaiden's seemed to say that he had just recently move on. Two years later, and the only thing he's done is go out to get drinks with someone. Your death ripped a hole in him and he probably blamed himself for leaving you on that ship when you went to get Joker.

Yeah it would have been a lot easier for someone who was just a friend to move on over someone who was a lover. And Kaidan pretty much says that he's been blaming himself for the last two years in the email...blaming himself for surviving. I think that most people because they are playing as Shep...they're seeing it from their own personal perspective but when you take a step back and look at it from the LI's side it looks entirely different.

And Liara couldn't even let you go in death. She went to find your body to bring you back to life. She stopped the Collectors from taking your body and doing who knows what. But she also handed you over to Cerebus because she was so desperate. And I was only close friends with her. She did all that for a friend. How can you possibly be mad at her for being a bit cold after what's she's been through?

I really didn't consider her cold...I just thought her dialog was a bit lacking. She's just too darn cute to be a cold blooded killer in my opinion so her assassin stance seemed out of character. She also seemed to be trying to make some sort of amends for what she thought to be an unpardonable sin for giving Shep's body over to TIM. So yeah, I think all three have been going through hell but how people respond will be based on what side they view it from. 

Maybe if your femshep can so easily cheat after a lovers quarrel then maybe the LI wasn't the love of your femshep's life after all. Kinda funny when you consider Kaidan's character...not one to get physical with someone unless he really cares for the person or is serious about them. In the email he says he has just recently been able to go out again...but it's not serious...he's telling Shep right there he didn't sleep with the woman.

How long has he gone without (sorry had to point it out) because he's been mourning Shep's death. It's obvious that it's love on his part. I just don't think Femshep could cheat on him if she really cared for him and considered his feelings and what he's going through.  As far as I'm concerned if she cheats then it wasn't love...love will always consider the feelings of the other person and not just their own. 

Again, they've been through hell, but they will come around eventually because they still love you. Was there initial anger, yes, but Shepard's been gone for two years. Like what was said above. I believe TIM purposely set up these meetings to go badly, so Shepard would turn to his side.

Sorry bud, it ain't happening.

Sounds like your response to this thing is the same as mine...I hate being manipulated and it only makes me more determined to stick it to the one manipulating me. My Shep isn't siding with Cerberus, and is staying loyal to Kaidan. 

[The Shelf]

I haven't finished the game yet (I'm finishing all the side quests before getting the IFF since I'm not sure if I'll have a chance after that), so I'm dancing around spoilers a little bit here. But I thought Ashley's response was perfect, and I didn't mind it at all. TIM is pissing off my Paragon Shepard a lot right now, so I'm just waiting for the chance to punch him in the face and go back to Ashley.

Liara is another story. I turned her down in ME1 but considered her a good friend. I stopped doing her quests because of the renegade points it was giving me. I'm just dumbfounded by how this could have happened to her. How does she go from a shy researcher to an information dealer? Those are two totally opposite things. I can understand her hardening her attitude, but her new career is a complete 180 from what she was doing before. I'm not hurt by it; it just doesn't make any sense.

Anyway, my Shepard will patiently wait for Ashley to come back around to him while hanging out with his buddies, Thane and Garrus.

I thought I was going to go with Kelley on my second Paragon playthrough because she's so kind and cute, but she apparently falls in love with everything that breathes, so it looks like Tali is next.

Modifié par The Shelf, 31 janvier 2010 - 12:28 .

[cpolisch]

I heard somewhere that if you're renegade enough that the picture is face down, I didn't know if it was after a romance or something but someone said that the picture got turned face down. I was loyal to Kaidan so I was staring all lovingly at the picture right before the final mission, but I'm just curious if the picture actually does get removed/taken down?

[Badpie]

That's a good point about TIM sabotaging things. I think this is true. And my Shepard told him to mind his own damned business when he asked about Ashley after Horizon.



I don't know who said this, but someone brought up an interesting point about how we're not seeing things from Ashley or Kaidan's point of view. We're seeing them from Shepard's point of view, which is exactly why we all feel frustrated and angry and hurt. Because Shepard feels frustrated, angry and hurt when it comes to Ash or Kaidan. Ultimately my Shepard can understand where Ash was coming from, but at first he felt betrayed.



When you stop and actually think about it from Ashley or Kaidan's perspective you realized the many reasons they acted the way they did and said the things they said. And it makes sense.



And I for one love that it's something that Shepard can't just "fix." You can't talk your way back into puppies and butterflies. That's not realistic. And we are left wanting and dissatisfied with our lack of interaction with our love interests from the first game because SHEPARD is left wanting and dissatisfied with it.



I've said it a million times already on these forums, but I thought the writers handled it brilliantly.

[ODST 3]

pacer90 wrote...

Remember emotionally engaging? Well being pissed off is an emotion too. You basically get shot down by Liara/Kaiden/Ashley pretty hard while you are shown all these other women/men/Thane during your trip.

You're mad at you're ex, and there's a pile of opporunities sitting around you. I thought this was one of the most clever things they've ever done.

Yeah, that was awesome. Ash's email helped though. It was almost enough to make me cheat.

[ODST 3]

Da Mecca wrote...

Indeed.


Liara's case is just sad. She's changed so much she's not the same woman my Shep fell in love with anymore.

Consumed by anger, driven by hate. I walked away from her office truly stunned at what she's become. She said she wouldn't become her mother but she's so close it's not even funny.

I hope there's a chapter involving Liara's redemption in ME 3.

[Faerlyte]

yoshibb wrote...

Does anyone understand the hell these three have been through? Garrus, Tali, and Wrex moved on just fine for the most part, but Liara and Ash/Kaiden seem to have really suffered. I haven't read Ash's email but Kaiden's seemed to say that he had just recently move on. Two years later, and the only thing he's done is go out to get drinks with someone. Your death ripped a hole in him and he probably blamed himself for leaving you on that ship when you went to get Joker.

And Liara couldn't even let you go in death. She went to find your body to bring you back to life. She stopped the Collectors from taking your body and doing who knows what. But she also handed you over to Cerebus because she was so desperate. And I was only close friends with her. She did all that for a friend. How can you possibly be mad at her for being a bit cold after what's she's been through?

Again, they've been through hell, but they will come around eventually because they still love you. Was there initial anger, yes, but Shepard's been gone for two years. Like what was said above. I believe TIM purposely set up these meetings to go badly, so Shepard would turn to his side.

Sorry bud, it ain't happening.

That's all find and dandy, except I didn't romance anyone as FemShep, Kaiden died, and Ashley was still acting like a douche - it wasn't because she loved me and was heartbroken over my death. I get a strong feeling like I'm being shoehorned into the ME1 love interests bandwagon, like that's what I'm supposed to do or what is considered the canon route, so my choosing not to romance anyone from ME1 alters the intended design of the scene. I get a bunch of whining while the rest of my team are behind me. 

I think it's pretty weak. 

[deadshame]

Well on my import I romanced Liara. I'm not mad that its broken off. I didn't expect her to still have strong feelings for me after two years. Although the first reaction to me entering her office was proof that some feelings are still there. What I hate is that after they share a quick kiss you can't even talk about your relationship that you had going before. The most you can say is the dialogue option where Shep says something like "Come on Liara, can't you just talk to me?" Like I said, I wasn't expecting her to still have those strong feelings. But I was expecting to be able to talk it out or possibly rekindle the relationship if both felt the same way. And I don't really know how shep would feel as i'm sure he doesn't feel like even a month or so has passed since he died. I was expecting more options to talk about then just helping liara with her crappy quests.

[LightweightJustice]

Ah...

Maybe i mised something...but what wil happen in ME3 if i didn't have any LI in ME1?

[Badpie]

LightweightJustice wrote...

Ah...
Maybe i mised something...but what wil happen in ME3 if i didn't have any LI in ME1?

Maybe you'll get a chance to romance someone new?  Or keep the ME2 romance if you had one.  

[Nightvision91]

I feel worse now after reading about how we aren't seeing things from Ash/Kaiden' POV. I mean I guess the way I was playing the game was how I was feeling during those situations. I mean I chose Ash in ME1, because even though she hated Aliens there was something there for Shepard. However when you see her in ME2 changed the feelings like a snap. It all just sort of fell apart. I was already sort of flirting with Miranda I guess, and I did what I thought was best. Ash was mad at me, and mad it clear she was done. Still it was done then, and I had my Shepard hook up with Miranda. Somethings just can't be fixed for my Shepard haha.

[TheGuv]

What a fantastic game this was.



I had a very different little situation come endgame. I never saw that dialog with Liara, and honestly if I had, it would have changed how Shepard viewed the situation in my eyes. I'd been talking up, paragoning my way through everything up until Tali turns up and just starts stammering.



I genuinely could not resist that, and changed my mind at the last second. Anyone willing to take medication and stammer her way through courtship just to sleep with Shepard deserves bunk time.

[iphoto]

I noticed something about the romance subplot. It's actually a "spoiler" to the third game, I didn't see it mentioned but it might have been, it's a big thread.

When you finally have the option to sleep with Miranda (or I guess other characters) it actually let's you choose to say "yes, I'm ready" several times before it actually happens...but once you hit the "I can't, I'm not ready" option you can't go back and change it, you can decide to say yes, and go back and say no before it happens though. What I found was this...

If you go to your quarters there's a picture of your mate on the desk, (in my case it was Ashley) when you choose to say you're ready for Miranda and go check on your desk the picture is turned down. I think because you choose not to betray her, even though she's pissed and sent the letter with some kind of doubt of whether or not they'll still be together at the end. Obviously by not sleeping with someone else Ashley comes back to you based on the picture thing. I kinda wondered why it wasn't removed when Ashley "broke up" with Shepard.

So what was my decision? I stayed true with "My" Shepard, but I'll certainly cheat with my others. I have a game setup for most sub-plots so I'll get all the variances.

I do want to say something else...the fact that they basically just left out the romance subplot at the end if you DIDN'T cheat was just strange feeling. You see Ashley being saved, but you don't talk to her or even see if she's ok or anything. Bioware really makes you want to betray your significant other...but like I said I really do believe the picture thing gives it away, she'll be back for the 3rd for good.

Modifié par iphoto, 31 janvier 2010 - 01:21 .

[Driveninhifi]

I was disappointed with the way Liara was handled. I don't completely buy the change in her character - it's too drastic. The player needs to be shown that amount of character modulation and the information you are given isn't enough. It seems like an overreach. Liara is not ruthless, she's not a killer and she's not a natural intimidator. I can see her realizing she has to "play the game" and act tough, but I think it would be important to show that doing that is not easy for her, and that it really weighs on her.



I think the comic gets this wrong. In the preview of part 2, she kills a Batarian who threatens her. I don't think this fits her character at all. She's not a cold-blooded killer. In a firefight, or in self defense, sure. Even breaking a few bones - but not the way it's shown in the comic; it's not true to her character.



It would make sense to be that angry, that obsessed if she were purely avenging Shepard. If the shadow broker killed Shepard I would buy it. But that's not really what happened, so that doesn't work. I can see her being really angry at the Shadow Broker for trying to sell Shepard's body, but would that anger last 2 years? I don't think so, especially if she expects Shepard to come back to life.



It would also make sense if she was in love with Feron (the drell from the comic who i'm assuming is the "friend"). But it's not true to her character to fall in love with someone so soon after Shepard's death. Especially if she believes Shepard may actually return from the dead. She had so much consternation about her feelings for Shepard and sleeping with him/her in ME1 that it's really hard to believe she'd fall for someone else so fast. From what I've seen of the comics she doesn't even know Feron that well and their relationship seems to be platonic (unless it develops into something else - though as I said I think that wouldn't work), so I don't think this is a possibility.



Now, doing all this to assuage her own guilt does make some sense. She feels guilty for her obsession with Shepard getting Feron killed, and also for putting Shepard in the current situation. So she's taking it out on the Shadow Broker for the last 2 years and it's all she's had to live for. I also think it would make sense for the Shadow Broker to be trying to kill her for 2 years, so she's stuck in this war with him/it. I just think the character change is too much, it's taken too far. Shepard showing up alive in front of her would probably really throw her world for a loop too, as it should make her question things since she clearly still cares. Perhaps the rest of the comics will make it more clear.



I also think there really, really needed to be an option to confirm Shepard's feelings for her after she spills her guts. Some people have claimed they've seen such an option, but I don't know if it's true or not.



I tried reverse engineering their file formats to look at the dialogue, but I haven't finished. It'll take a bit of time. I did see references to Liara-based DLC. They could do a lot to solve all these issues with a DLC where you team up with her to take down the Shadow Broker, and I really hope they do so.

[OldMan91]

I tried reverse engineering their file formats to look at the dialogue, but I haven't finished. It'll take a bit of time. I did see references to Liara-based DLC. They could do a lot to solve all these issues with a DLC where you team up with her to take down the Shadow Broker, and I really hope they do so.

What? Are you serious? References to Liara-based DLC? WHAT?

[Nightvision91]

Is it considered cheating then if you left your ME1 LI for someone in ME2? I'm having a hard time answering this question myself haha.

[Corti78]

OldMan91 wrote...

I tried reverse engineering their file formats to look at the dialogue, but I haven't finished. It'll take a bit of time. I did see references to Liara-based DLC. They could do a lot to solve all these issues with a DLC where you team up with her to take down the Shadow Broker, and I really hope they do so.

What? Are you serious? References to Liara-based DLC? WHAT?

I'm not expecting to see specific DLC just for her but maybe a entire pack or packs thats designed to build up on all the important ME1 characters and have them setup better for ME3. Ever since Bioware said they will be doing story DLC this was the first thing that came to mind.

[Badpie]

Nightvision91 wrote...

Is it considered cheating then if you left your ME1 LI for someone in ME2? I'm having a hard time answering this question myself haha.

Firstly, you can't really call it "cheating" because technically you're not really together.  It's all very gray.  That's not an EXCUSE to do it if you really care about a person and I know I'm sticking with Ash, but it's not like the two of you are actually together.  That's true.  

This is the way I think it will be handled:

It seems that if you have a "fling" with Kelly or Jack for instance that the pic of your love interest on your desk doesn't get turned down (someone confirm or deny this for sure, please).  This suggests to me that the random hot fling won't even enter into it in ME3. 

What will be an issue is if you actually romanced and had a real relationship with an ME2 person.  Because I would assume that (if they survive) you'll still be in a relationship with them after ME2.

If anything, I don't see Ashley or Kaidan or Liara being ANGRY if you're in a relationship with someone else.  Just hurt...and very very sad.   After all it took them a year or two to even function without thinking about you and now you've been awake for a few weeks and found someone new?

[Nightvision91]

Badpie wrote...

Nightvision91 wrote...

Is it considered cheating then if you left your ME1 LI for someone in ME2? I'm having a hard time answering this question myself haha.

Firstly, you can't really call it "cheating" because technically you're not really together.  It's all very gray.  That's not an EXCUSE to do it if you really care about a person and I know I'm sticking with Ash, but it's not like the two of you are actually together.  That's true.  

This is the way I think it will be handled:

It seems that if you have a "fling" with Kelly or Jack for instance that the pic of your love interest on your desk doesn't get turned down (someone confirm or deny this for sure, please).  This suggests to me that the random hot fling won't even enter into it in ME3. 

What will be an issue is if you actually romanced and had a real relationship with an ME2 person.  Because I would assume that (if they survive) you'll still be in a relationship with them after ME2.

If anything, I don't see Ashley or Kaidan or Liara being ANGRY if you're in a relationship with someone else.  Just hurt...and very very sad.   After all it took them a year or two to even function without thinking about you and now you've been awake for a few weeks and found someone new?

Oh man that really sort of changes it all around. I agree with the whole we weren't really together thing. A one night stand before a suicide mission doesn't really mean a relationship. However the way I played my Shepard was that he was in a relationship with Miranda before the final mission, and hook up. I can understsnd why your ME1 LI would be ticked under the mindset of "I was lost without you for two years, and in just three weeks you already moved on?"

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out for sure in ME3.

[Badpie]

Yeah to be honest, I doubt your ME1 love interest would even find out about a fling. Why would they? And if they did? It probably wouldn't matter all that much. The thing that would upset them the most is Shepard finding a meaningful relationship with someone else.

[Nightvision91]

Ash is probably going to clock my Shepard then when she finds out he's with Miranda haha.

[epoch_]

Ash is going to be pissed when she finds out I "cheated"(sorta, I liked her in ME1, but she was a total **** to me in ME2) on her with an alien. lol. Can't wait for that conversation.

Modifié par epoch_, 31 janvier 2010 - 02:06 .

[ratzerman]

OldMan91 wrote...

I tried reverse engineering their file formats to look at the dialogue, but I haven't finished. It'll take a bit of time. I did see references to Liara-based DLC. They could do a lot to solve all these issues with a DLC where you team up with her to take down the Shadow Broker, and I really hope they do so.

What? Are you serious? References to Liara-based DLC? WHAT?

Uhhhh...... yes, I concur.  WHAT?!

If you're just talking out your rear to sound cool, please say so now.  How do you "reverse engineer" file formats, anyway?  While Liara-based DLC would be an unbelievably awesome thing, I call BS on this.

[Kalfear]

Eradyn wrote...

BW's way of trying to get their fans to "move on" as well, just like the ME1 LI's did. Want to stay loyal? Well, first these ME1 LI's are going to beat you with a stick. Profusely. Then BW will dangle new LI's in your face who will toss you carrots. XD

I never romanced any of the ME1 LI's, but I can definitely understand the disappointment.  Heck, I was disappointed with how it was handled.

Im not disappointed with that actually

Im disappointed that the new love interests have about as much emotional detail involvemnt to them as me lookimg at a spoiled apple!

I mean there is no connection to be made at all with the new LIs, they literally there for a the cheep bang cause your not going to form a relationship cause some hot chick whined about her father for a whole space trip.

There is no interaction with the LIs in ME2. Its just listen to me whine and now lets goto bed.

Sorry but ive come to expect more from Bioware on this front, expecially after Morrigan and LEilianna reset the bar so freaking high with their relationships.