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[ejoslin]

 My favorite Zevran-love thread has been taken over by Alistair defending, which is an interesting topic in and of itself, so I figured it would be nice to give that its own thread.

I definitely prefer Zevran as a romance partner.  I always feel like my Warden ends up being part mother, part ego booster, part fantasy woman to Alistair.  I also get the feeling that Zevran appreciates the warden a lot more, and for who she is.  As people, I find Zevran's remarkable inner strength very compelling.  I also like the way Zevran, no matter what area you're in, has a lot to say, unlike Alistair, who can't even agree to defend Redcliff, though he does make it clear that he'd prefer it.

However, Alistair does have his good points.  The romance starts off far sweeter, and you get the feeling he is actually courting the Warden.  With Zevran, it starts quite a bit differently, though he tries to win the Warden in his own way as well.  Alistair is looking to fall in love, though, where Zevran is trying to avoid it.  When both of them fall, though, they undergo dramatic changes in the way they react to the Warden.  The Zevran romance ends up far deeper, though with Alistair you can always have a happy ending as well, though not necessarily as queen.

Their upbringings cannot be compared.  Alistair definitely has a more difficult time coping with his, but Zevran's destroyed all but the absolute strongest of people, and the fact that he remained unbroken and not cold as ice shows how much strength he actually has.

So let's discuss.  Why do you find Alistair or Zevran so appealing?

[Sialater]

I can't answer that. I'm torn. My poor elf mage ended up with them both in love with her.



I screwed up with my HNF though and she and Zevran are merely good friends. (I picked the wrong dialogue after the Taliesin fight and accidentally saved over it so I couldn't go back.)

[Posioned]

I'm more of a Alistair fan. I don't really see my character acting as a mother to him at all. There is many points I like about him, but it's also fine that other don't. With Zevran at first I really didn't like him. I find him kind of slimy. Although now that I know his backstory I like him a little bit more now.

Modifié par Posioned, 28 janvier 2010 - 09:48 .

[Sandtigress]

Alistair all the way, for me. I'm the type of girl who wants to be courted and wants to be a man's one and only, right from the start, so Alistair's knightly manner is greatly appealing to me. While I'll admit that Zevran's romance is more mature and is sweet, being on the younger end myself (late mid-20s) I don't mind the slightly boyish more shy aspect of Alistair's personality. In fact, I find it quite endearing, and it reminds me of a guy that I might have dated had things not gone badly for him healthwise recently.



I think the end of Zevran's romance is really sweet, its the journey along the way that is harder for me to find appealing compared to Alistair's rather adorable awkwardness. I think its his over-confident approach, perhaps, that turns me off a little as a player and from my PCs points of view so far. I think we think its sweet that Alistair is so uncertain, deep down, despite his obvious appeal, while Zevran has no doubts that he can charm the PC and really, unless you advance his romance to its end, you get the feeling that you're just another conquest. I realize that's not true at all once he offers you the earring, but until you get to know his character, that's how it feels.



I've got the workings of another HNF in mind who will be more open in relationships than my current girl, and just as flirtatious and free as Zev is. I think she will find his romance a very pleasant and welcome surprise, but so far, he hasn't fit for any of my girls, nor for myself, charming rascal that he is.

[Addai]

Why do we have to choose? Why oh why? LOL I love both romance stories. I admit that part of my Alistair preference is a romantic notion of the bastard prince who is a part of the larger Ferelden mythos, and at least a good half of it has to be put down to that Charm spell that Steve Valentine put on his voice acting. The Zevran romance was a huge surprise, however. Not at all what I expected. It is now so hard for me to choose. This is a good problem for the female Warden to have, I suppose. The romance choices for the males do not seem nearly so appealing, in my biased female opinion.

[ejoslin]

*grin* Well, I normally dump Alistair if that happens.



A couple of other points in Zevran's favor, at least for me. As soon as you hit 26 approval, Zevran initiates a discussion regarding your future, whether it will be a friendship or more, and whether after all is said and done, if more than friends, whether you have a future together. Alistair doesn't look to the future until after he falls in love, until then, it's for the moment.



Also, Zevran always asks permission before moving to the next level with the Warden. He makes sure it's ok to flirt. He makes sure it's ok to be closer. He even asks, if he offers a massage, if it's ok for it to go further. His manners, if anything, are TOO good which can give off a sleazy vibe I suppose.



The last comparison is party banter. After you're intimate with either of them (or at the level where you could be intimate), the certain companions talk about it. Alistair always gets embarrassed and tries to change the subject. Zevran admits to everything, sometimes revealing a deeper commitment than expected, and complements the warden further.

[Sialater]

Well, despite my indecisiveness, I still ended up as Chancellor and then Queen.

[ejoslin]

Addai67 wrote...

Why do we have to choose? Why oh why? LOL I love both romance stories. I admit that part of my Alistair preference is a romantic notion of the bastard prince who is a part of the larger Ferelden mythos, and at least a good half of it has to be put down to that Charm spell that Steve Valentine put on his voice acting. The Zevran romance was a huge surprise, however. Not at all what I expected. It is now so hard for me to choose. This is a good problem for the female Warden to have, I suppose. The romance choices for the males do not seem nearly so appealing, in my biased female opinion.

But guys get Zevran too.  I agree about Morrigan and Leliana not being as appealing, but that may just be my straight woman bias there.  *groan* I hope we don't get Morrigan and Leliana defenders here!

[ejoslin]

Sialater wrote...

Well, despite my indecisiveness, I still ended up as Chancellor and then Queen.

I do too.  As a political arrangement.  With a certain elf on the side.

[Sialater]

ejoslin wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Well, despite my indecisiveness, I still ended up as Chancellor and then Queen.

I do too.  As a political arrangement.  With a certain elf on the side.

Well, I couldn't do that as my HNF, I screwed up the dialogue.


I'm actually writing about the elf on the side for my chancellor at the moment.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

It really depends on the playthrough, and type of character I'm playing.



There are pluses and minuses to each. It depends what clicks for an individual.



I like Alistair slightly more, because he is so very realisticly flawed, and beautifully so. I think he has handled his upbringing well, considering everything. He hasn't completely abandoned it, it still effects him in a very realistic way. I think he has plenty of strengths. The problem is for some, they tend to pop up at inconvient times for the player. He resisted the worst of Chantry and templar indoctrination, which is telling in itself.



Zevran is terribly amusing and laid back. He is pretty agreeable with most decisions you make, seems to have little problem whether you want to kill puppies or rescue them. He has a very pragmatic worldview that is far more insightful and useful than Morrigan's "pragmatism". He survived his training well enough, though I wouldn't say completely unbroken. He deals with situations on a moment by moment basis.



When it comes to romances, however, it's hard to say, because the styles differ. It really depends on which character I play, to determine which one fits better. However, I do not get the same feeling about Zevran in a romance, that he appreciates the Warden anymore than Alistair. If anything, Zevran seems more like he's looking for some sort of personal salvation/redemption for past mistakes, which I find offputting in alot of ways.



I also find, strangely enough, that I have to coddle Zev a bit more and tread a bit lighter with Zevran than I do with Alistair. Barring really cruel, nasty insults, I can tease and lightly insult Alistair alot more than I can with Zev, who I end up with approval drops. With Alistair, I can get his approval up to 100 with several gifts to spare. With Zev, I find approval to be a harder get up and keep from dropping. In order to romance Zevran, I usually have to make some out of character dialogue choices.



Zevran's romance is sweet, though, once you've gotten past Talesin, and for some characters, Zevran's declaration of love becomes their own personal salvation from an unpleasant past/origin and even dimmer future.



In the end, Alistair requires alot more work and insight to develop and keep, which provides me with a challenge. A challenge I love. And most importantly, with Alistair, you can ultimately become his own hero, which for me, is a major win.

[melkathi]

As to the original post, I totally agree with all that is said in there.

The relationship with Zev is very different. Especially as he is the one character with whom you can simply go to tent without a relationship existing. But when you refrain from doing hat and let him do his flirting, it does become sweeter, or so I felt. And I was quite surprised when he told my dalish elf that she looked tired and he could massage her. It sounded genuine to me and not at all like a sleezy pickup line, which one would expect from him from the first impression.


I am male and have to say I do not feel "cheated". Leliana is extremely cute and lovable. And Morrigan... well my friends say I have a selfdestructive taste in women - I know I'd totaly fall for Morrigan if she was real, fully aware at the same time what a mistake it is.




Of course, ejoslin, you forgot the most important advantage Zevran has in the Ali-Zev comparison:
Wynne disapproves of him :innocent:

[ejoslin]

melkathi wrote...

Of course, ejoslin, you forgot the most important advantage Zevran has in the Ali-Zev comparison:
Wynne disapproves of him :innocent:

Hah, yes, those two love annoying each other! 

[Maria13]

A and Z, eh?



Both their mothers died in childbirth. A was neglected, Z was exploited.



They both, as a result, have emotional difficulties. I'd dispute that attempting to remedy these is "mothering", rather it is "motherly" or affectionate, which is quite different.



They both face difficult futures, one may have to be "broken in" to leadership, the other is "breaking out" of his past life.



They are both intelligent, kind, brave and resourceful and aware of their uncertain futures.



No wonder they are challenging in the field of love, but if you help them grow and heal, you'll grow too, isn't that the key to real romance?

[Sialater]

It is funny to see who gets along with who in the dialogues.



I never really thought Wynne was that annoyed by Zevran, though. More like frustrated yet amused.

[Sialater]

Maria13 wrote...

A and Z, eh?

Both their mothers died in childbirth. A was neglected, Z was exploited.

They both, as a result, have emotional difficulties. I'd dispute that attempting to remedy these is "mothering", rather it is "motherly" or affectionate, which is quite different.

They both face difficult futures, one may have to be "broken in" to leadership, the other is "breaking out" of his past life.

They are both intelligent, kind, brave and resourceful and aware of their uncertain futures.

No wonder they are challenging in the field of love, but if you help them grow and heal, you'll grow too, isn't that the key to real romance?

Which is why it's hard to choose.

[SusanStoHelit]

I'm torn between the two of them. At first, I found Zevran totally unappealing for a whole heap of reasons, his being an assassin and enjoying it not least of them. Once you get to know him, and uncover his background, you find that there is much there to like. But it's not as simple as that for me.

Appearance: Alistair wins here hands down for me.
Voice: Alistair again. His voice is gorgeous.

Okay, that makes Al a clear winner in physical appeal. It's nothing to do with my characters or roleplaying, that's just me.

Ethics: Alistair is a clear winner here for me.

For some, this mightn't be an issue. This is partly just me the player - but it's also 'me' as various pcs. I generally play 'good' or 'neutral' characters. I don't have fun playing 'evil'. I know DAO doesn't break down easily into those categories, it's far more grey. Nevertheless, my characters tend to help the innocent and destroy evil (Howe and Vaughan). Actions that are neither wholly good nor wholly evil - well, they can go either way.

Humour: Zevran wins here - but it's very close indeed.

This is much more difficult. Both Alistair and Zevran use humour, in different ways, to deflect attention from things they don't want to tell you, or are hiding for some reason, at least until they know you better. And sometimes even then. Bioware obviously knows we like men with a sense of humour, lol. I actually like both their senses of humour. Alistair's is more boyish - but he's led a very sheltered life. Zevran's is far more grown-up (which is why he wins this for me) but his background made him grow up early.

Characteristics or attributes: This is simply a tie.

Alistair:
* sweet, loving, tender, trusting - the flip side of which is he's naive and easily-led
* loyal - except when his ethics or duty  gets in the way; but even then, I like high standards of ethics and believe duty to be important, so I can understand and empathize with this his anger and his choices
* funny and sad - on the outside he's light-hearted, always telling jokes, uses humour to deflect others who probe to closely; on the inside he's been hurt quite badly by his upbringing, and needs someone who'll help him get past that and find his own inner strength (I don't see that as a mother though, more a mentor and counsellor)

Zevran:
* worldly, witty, perceptive, intelligent - but also cynical, hard, opportunistic, and selfish
* loyal - so loyal in fact, that he'll stick by you no matter what if he truly comes to love you, and the rest of the world be damned; you're more important to him than anything else
* funny and tragic - on the outside he's positive, upbeat, happy-go-lucky, and uses humour (if a rather raunchy humour) to deflect others who probe to deeply, and also to poke holes in other people's way of thinking; on the inside he's deeply damaged by his past, unable to trust in love and needs someone to show him love is not a weakness and there are people who can be trusted

This is the most important part of deciding who I like the best. There are other factors involved, but these are the main ones, the critically important ones. And it's simply too close a call. I cannot say: I like Alistair, but not Zevran. Or: I like Zevran, but not Alistair. I like them both. I am torn.

*Bursts into song*: Torn between two lovers, feeling like a fool, loving both of them ...

[Sarielle]

Prefer Zevran so far (not quite to the end on that playthrough, so ymmv), though both romances are extremely well-written.



I'm just selfish enough (talking RL me here) to want to be the most important thing in somebody's life; I like Zevran's "the rest of the world be damned" attitude, as someone described it.

[Sabriana]

I think that Zevran sees something in the PC almost right from the beginning. He seems to be determined to show himself in a worse light than he actually is. He seems to go for the shock value, because he tries to convince himself that there is nothing going on but the same old same old, namely a purely sexual attraction. He doesn't realize it's a fight he will lose.

He starts wondering very early on in the relationship whether there will be a part for him in the future with the PC. He asks her if she wants him to stay, and keeps circling back to it, wanting a definite answer.
I have a problem keeping his approval down, for RP purposes. I never have a problem raising it with Alistair as well.

Zevran can be teased in the beginning, but as the conflict keeps getting deeper and deeper in him, he needs more reassurance that he's not just a fling. That much is true. However, it's because love is totally alien to him, and he was taught to close up all feelings since he was a 7 year old child.

He has no clue how to handle love and affection, all he knows is what's been drilled into him for many years, and through brutal methods.

He is more mature, and it doesn't feel to me (and my PC) that she is his superior, they are more on an equal footing. At one stage in the game, he even takes over completely, and all the PC can do is step aside and let him, she has no other choice.

He is very vocal, and not shy about letting others know what he thinks. His party banter is priceless. It's too sweet how he lets the PC know that she is indeed a major factor in his life. Saying to Morrigan that she has 'lovely eyes', telling Shale that 'he certainly is seeking her attention', and being all proud and happy when talking about her involvement with him with Oghren. Telling Shale that he thinks the GW is an object for worship  is nothing to sneeze at either.

Breaking up with Alistair netted my PC zero approval loss. Breaking up with Zevran is an automatic reload. I feel so very bad about his sadness. It almost destroys him. Besides, my PC would never really break up with him. She likes him so very, very much

Edited to add:
Zevran is not evil, he is more neutral. He's okay with the PCs decisions, whether they are good or bad. Morrigan disapproves far more when my PC does good things than Zevran ever does. He does make a very moving appeal to the PC if she agrees with Cullen. He practically pleads for the mages lives. Of course, that's another automatic reload, because the PC has no choice to be persuaded by Zevran. That option is missing in game, so if she wants to destroy the mages, she can't agree with Cullen from the outset.

However, it's worth it to hear it at least once, and then reload if you want to save the mages.

The PC also gets approval if she lies to the demon, although I forget which one. It's either the Sophia demon or Kitty.

Modifié par Sabriana, 28 janvier 2010 - 10:55 .

[ejoslin]

SusanStoHelit, regarding ethics, I think all is not as it seems there. You use Vaughn as an example, but Alistair does not care if you let him out of prison, Zevran disapproves. Same with siding with the werewolves; though Zevran will help you if you ask it, he does disapprove and does his best to talk you out of it. Alistair again is indifferent. Mages -- if you choose to wipe the circle, again, Zevran pleads for them (unfortunately, once you commit, it doesn't matter what he says, you can't go back) where Alistair is indifferent.



Things like the Anvil, however -- I always take the third option because I think it's heartless to ask Oghren to kill his wife (yes, there is a third option there of allowing Branka to live but talking her out of using the anvil). But yes, in that one, Zevran disapproves if you side with Cairadin and Alistair disapproves if you side with Branka.



Zevran is amoral, except, of course, when he isn't. And Alistair has his ethics except, or course, when he can't stand up for them. Redcliff is a good example of that. When Bann Teagan asks Alistair to please help them fight, Alistair says it's not up to him. But Zevran, when he believes strongly in something, will speak for the group, though you can always tell him to shut up.



They both are compelling characters, though.

[DarthRomance]

Zevran is a man and Alistair is a little boy. If you are a female character and want someone to mentor, change diapers, dress in the morning, or behave like a teenager with, Alistair is the one. Otherwise Zevran is your man.

[Sialater]

Alistair will say he agrees after the fact, but stays silent if you go against his principles. I think that's more a symptom of his plot sensitivity than his personality, though. If he spoke up at every decision, since he's the one guy you CAN'T get rid of, it would be too much like leading the player to 'make the right decisions.'

[Sialater]

DarthRomance wrote...

Zevran is a man and Alistair is a little boy. If you are a female character and want someone to mentor, change diapers, dress in the morning, or behave like a teenager with, Alistair is the one. Otherwise Zevran is your man.

That's a bit harsh, thanks much for the judgement.

[SusanStoHelit]

@DarthRomance: wow, was that mature discussion and evaluation - or just plain gut-level condemnation without consideration? Fail.

@Ejoslin: I agree with you about the ethics, which is why I said many choices were in fact grey. But you're also right that both characters have their own biases and ideas of what is 'right' and 'wrong'. I don't always agree with Alistair or Zevran on ethical issues - depending on my character, I may be more inclined to agree with one or the other. Which is why, although ethics is something I take into consideration, it's not the most important thing.

[Edited for a typo.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:04 .

[Sabriana]

I have nothing against Alistair. Not anymore, now that my mage is over being dumped in public, lol.

My PCs usually start something with him, but as soon as Zevran enters the picture, he becomes a friend.

He doesn't seem to mind being dumped, not if you don't do it the heartless way. And as long as your PC isn't completely mean and brutal, he's quite easy to get along with.

Hardening him helps as well, the boy was far too sheltered, and needs to see the world as it really is. I just wish there was another way to do that. My PC feels like a total heel, when she tells him the "Everyone is out for themselves, etc" bit.