534 réponses à ce sujet

[Lakmoots]

Ejoslin wrote...

I agree about Morrigan and Leliana not being as appealing, but that may just be my straight woman bias there.  *groan* I hope we don't get Morrigan and Leliana defenders here!

buh...

Yes, you girls certainly do not go insanely OTT over Alistair and Teagan... very measured

Personally I find there to be a "little bit" of a double standard over the hardened/unhardened Alistair.

For one, no one can get around the fact that the answers and way you treat him during the whole Goldanna quest is essentially a cruel and selfish thing to do to him...

But, gosh, it leads to a more romantic and "manly" proposition later, so I guess a little bit of cruelty to the one you love is a... good thing?

I never harden Alistair because I accept him for who he is. 

It really is just so you get to keep him post-Landsmeet... as a concubine?

Ummmm...


EDIT: Weird Formatting...

Modifié par Lakmoots, 07 février 2010 - 02:08 .

[ejoslin]

Hahahaha, you quote ME to make this point? Naw, I harden Alistair so he can stomach being king while I rebuild the Grey Wardens with Zevran.

[Nonvita]

Hardening him, in my opinion, really is the nicer thing to do. I don't know why the wording choice is so poor, since it sounds like a terrible thing to say to him, but it changes more than just the concubine thing. Alistair starts to think for himself after a lifetime of other people telling him not to. He starts to consider his own happiness and to have faith in his abilities. He is more willing to accept becoming King, and is a better ruler because of it. So, I think, he is happier in the end if you harden him.

Come to think of it, maybe that's why they made the dialogue option so contrary to what you'd think. Yes, you can let Alistair remain "innocent," but what he needs in order to change is the realization that the world can be cruel, and it will keep being cruel to him if he lets it. So your choice is between sweet and naive, and (slightly) more cynical but more in control.

(I tend to change the line a bit in my head, to something more like, "You need to stop letting others decide your happiness for you. Your sister is a ****, but that has nothing to do with you.")

Modifié par Nonvita, 07 février 2010 - 02:34 .

[Sandtigress]

Lakmoots wrote...

Personally I find there to be a "little bit" of a double standard over the hardened/unhardened Alistair.

For one, no one can get around the fact that the answers and way you treat him during the whole Goldanna quest is essentially a cruel and selfish thing to do to him...

But, gosh, it leads to a more romantic and "manly" proposition later, so I guess a little bit of cruelty to the one you love is a... good thing?

I never harden Alistair because I accept him for who he is. 

It really is just so you get to keep him post-Landsmeet... as a concubine?

Ummmm...


EDIT: Weird Formatting...

Actually, now I've decided to harden Alistair every time because it helps him reach his potential as who he is - a great king and ruler.  I've just decided to ignore what the words actually say at Goldanna's house and substitute it in my head for what my characters really mean - something along the lines of "Stand up for yourself, you deserve more than that, and sometimes people are just selfish and you've got to overcome that."

I see it as the natural outcome of what my girls who have romanced him have been trying to do - get him to believe in himself and trust in his own abilities, which then results in his becoming a fine ruler for Fereldan.

Though one of my characters was intended to be mistress, it ended up not working out that way.  Otherwise, we've either split for the good of the kingdom, or she gets married.

[Lakmoots]

Sandtigress wrote...

Lakmoots wrote...


Ummmm...

Actually, now I've decided to harden Alistair every time because it helps him reach his potential as who he is - a great king and ruler.  I've just decided to ignore what the words actually say at Goldanna's house and substitute it in my head for what my characters really mean - something along the lines of "Stand up for yourself, you deserve more than that, and sometimes people are just selfish and you've got to overcome that."

Exactly...

"Lets pretend that I am, in fact, not crushing his spirit or re-modelling his personality through sheer cruelty... la-la-la... not listening"

In fact, this *is* what is happening... but the girls do not *want* to see it that way, because he is, errr, better the other way?

Wow... very noble choice...

If the men were doing this to the girls, such as hardening Leliana so we can force her into three-way sex, does this seem anymore kind?

Oh... wait a minute... I am simply "liberating" and "empowering" Leliana with this cruel and manipulative option...

La-la-la, not listening


EDIT: Sorry... not personally refering to you... all the girls seem to advocate doing this...

Modifié par Lakmoots, 07 février 2010 - 02:43 .

[SusanStoHelit]

Yes, even my male characters harden Alistair, usually. So romance is not the only reason to harden him. The wording sucks, it's true. Whoever wrote the wording for the Leliana hardening was far gentler. The Alistair hardening dialogue is crass, unkind, and untrue. But if you ignore the dialogue itself and look at the result, the 'harder' Alistair isn't all that hard, he's just stronger and more confident and independent. A good thing, I think, on the whole.

[ejoslin]

*sigh* it got fed.

[Nonvita]

Lakmoots wrote...

Exactly...

"Lets pretend that I am, in fact, not crushing his spirit or re-modelling his personality through sheer cruelty... la-la-la... not listening"

In fact, this *is* what is happening... but the girls do not *want* to see it that way, because he is, errr, better the other way?

Wow... very noble choice...

If the men were doing this to the girls, such as hardening Leliana so we can force her into three-way sex, does this seem anymore kind?

Oh... wait a minute... I am simply "liberating" and "empowering" Leliana with this cruel and manipulative option...

La-la-la, not listening


EDIT: Sorry... not personally refering to you... all the girls seem to advocate doing this...

No, that's not the whole story. Alistair is happier with himself if you harden him. He's had his whole life pretty much decided for him by others, so he can't see that he has potential within himself. Unhardened, he has little confidence, and though he makes jokes and is amiable he can be self-deprecating and he allows himself to be used. Hardening him allows him to see his own strength and find happiness. I'm not sure how you think that's selfish...

It's actually the same with Leliana. She has to accept her past in order to move beyond it. It's not cruel and manipulative, it's just a hard dose of reality. But better for them to get that from someone they trust--from whom they actually learn something--than from the rest of the world that's going to keep being just as harsh.

[Herr Uhl]

Lakmoots wrote...
If the men were doing this to the girls, such as hardening Leliana so we can force her into three-way sex, does this seem anymore kind?

Oh... wait a minute... I am simply "liberating" and "empowering" Leliana with this cruel and manipulative option...

Correction, four-way sex. Went there, did it, got the t-shirt.

I see nothing bad in doing it, Alastair needs a smack of reality. Leliana, you make her accept herself, as an adventurer instead of a nun.

[Raiynsong]

<quote> Refuse the earring the first time it's offered because you won't take it unless it means something

Next talk, pick the "I'm no wiser than you in that area."

Zevran will offer the earring again. The PC can now ask him if it's a proposal. If you want to find out what happens when she says "It's too much." save beforehand. He'll be torn apart by that choice.

After reloading, pick the "I wish it" choice, and voila, you're betrothed to a very sweet, loving, and loyal assassin. <endquote>

ah thanks... this is what i did wrong. I refused the earring the first time but did the next dialog the wrong way. We still ended up together and in love, so I guess it's all good but my next char I will do it this way so I can get the dialog

Modifié par Raiynsong, 07 février 2010 - 02:56 .

[Cuddlezarro]

I think the alistair hardening option wording sucks but like the girls said he is happier in the end and becomes a better person



the Leliena options are alot less harsh and you get an entire conversation dedicated to it your nor crushing her spirit at all your getting her to stop running away from her past

[Lakmoots]

So... its not cruel and manipulative?



It is "grow up and be a man"... sort of "tough love"...



ewwwwwww...



classy, girls, classy!

[errant_knight]

Lakmoots wrote...

So... its not cruel and manipulative?

It is "grow up and be a man"... sort of "tough love"...

ewwwwwww...

classy, girls, classy!

I think that the wording there is as it is because it's kind of a puzzle, and that if you pick that option, your actual words are what Alistair says you said when you discuss it back in camp: "I've been thinking about what you said, that I need to look out for myself more." Otherwise, why would Alistair say you said that? Nothing wrong with saying that when you hate seeing people trying to take advantage of him. There's a world of difference between wanting him to look out for himself and trying to convince a sweet guy that everyone in the world is an a-hole.

Lakmoots wrote...
I never harden Alistair because I accept him for who he is. 
It really is just so you get to keep him post-Landsmeet... as a concubine?
Ummmm...

I've never played the concubine ending, so that's not it for me. I do it because of what he says at landsmeet when he's hardened, that Anora isn't an option, that he wants to be king and he can do it. I think that if he believes that when he has the self-confidence to believe in himself, it's what he really wants under his fear of failure. I also think that he'll be happier not carrying around all that doubt about his abilities. And I can't help but think that hardened or not, if Anora was queen, he'd be tormented with guilt everytime Anora did something he didn't consider to be in the best interests of Fereldan. I just want Alistair to believe in himself enough to be the great king that I know he can be.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 février 2010 - 05:04 .

[Monica21]

Lakmoots wrote...

So... its not cruel and manipulative?

It is "grow up and be a man"... sort of "tough love"...

ewwwwwww...

classy, girls, classy!

If the problem is the wording, then yes, it's unfortunate but also not at all what Alistair thinks you said and not at all how the ensuing conversation goes, as numerous people have pointed out. How fair is it to let a friend continue to get taken advantage because you don't "want to change him"? If the person in question needs to be changed for their own good, then that's that.

After one playthrough with a hardened Alistair and one with an unhardened Alistair, I think the only reason not to harden him is if your character is doing a bit of meta-gaming and wants to put him on the throne and be chancellor, effectively ruling in his place.

[Lakmoots]

Those were both very well thought and mature posts... so please ignore this.

But...

The idea of remodelling your boyfriends personality to be "more manly" is about as reprehensible as a man forcing his girl into three-way sex in order to "loosen her up" socially.

Bioware were very clever to mirror these options and choices.

Men are rather attached to their personality - and most demand to be accepted for who they are.

This thread, and soooo many others, are full of rather crass justifications on why this is an okay thing to do... It is manipulative and cruel.

It is about as mature as dressing up your puppy.

If any girl *really* thinks that this is justifiable emotional behavior towards a member of the male species... then I would suggest you enjoy your digital romance...

...because you won't get much more than pixels trying that in RL.

Someone in this thread mentioned how Zevran loved and supported you no matter what... who knew boys wanted that too...

Good Grief!

[Sandtigress]

So....its a problem to get a guy to believe in himself when you know he's fully capable of doing the job if only he would trust in his own abilities? Who knew...

[Monica21]

Apologies in advance for feeding it.

@Lakmoots, that post, as well as your others, are blowing this completely out of proportion. You clearly haven't played through it and seen the resulting dialogue, so equating it to an undesired threesome is so out of whack to not even bother addressing. You haven't played through it and clearly have no desire to, but seem to only wish to bash people who have based on nothing more than your own preconceptions and not on actual knowledge.

As for justifiable emotional behavior, well, I suppose that even in real life I don't like seeing my friends get trampled on and if they continue to let themselves, I'll say something.

[Nonvita]

Lakmoots wrote...
Quote

My boyfriend in real life also wasn't shunned because he's the illegitimate heir to the throne, then sent of into harsh military training and taught to become a mindless robot for the benefit of an oppressive religious organization. Obviously, spouting off rude words to guys in real life is inappropriate and ineffective, but we're not talking about real life. We're talking about characters in a game, in which their backgrounds have affected their personalities in extremely negative ways.

Alistair doesn't like his personality. He hasn't been taught to be independent and to like who he is; instead, he's been told his whole life that he shouldn't have been born and that he's a burden. It is obvious that he could have been a great, strong, and kind leader, but he's lost so much confidence in himself that it's no longer true. Unhardened Alistair is not a great King and has a far harder time coming to terms with his situation. Hardened Alistair is much better off in the end.

Yes, the wording is unfortunate. But still, why do people act like it's the end of the world? It's a single line of dialogue, and said after a very angering confrontation with his **** of a sister. I can easily imagine my character being upset enough to get snappy at him.

And it doesn't change the fact that it's something that Alistair responds to. No one tells him that it's supposed to change him, he changes on his own. He decides what those words mean to him. The fact that he seems happy when revealing his new insight does show that it's a change for the better, and I stand by the idea that hardening him is a good thing.


[edit: No more feeding after this.]

Modifié par Nonvita, 07 février 2010 - 07:12 .

[Lakmoots]

"People are only out there for themselves"...

Hmmm... belief in myself...

It is cruelty, and well, manipulative...

Aren't you jsut thinking of the dialogue you are "pretending" you are saying... rather than getting a man to change his principles - of softness and caring - so he can produce a result that you like better?

This does not seem to be a moral choice, at all...

It is the same betrayal of someones inner personality on the project of, well, molding...

It is like saying that Leliana wouldn't be so soft and forgiving if she just er... took a chance? Loosened up?

This does not work for us, it is regarded as reprehensible, and it should not be something you cannot see...

Good Luck, though

[Cuddlezarro]

again people have already stated the wording for the "harden" option is pretty bad



he doesnt do a 180 personality shift he just grows more self confidence hes still the same alistair but with a bit more confidence in his own abilities he doesnt change his principles at all either I have no idea where you got that idea other than the fact it seems you have never done it



hardening him is not cruel or manipulative at all

[Monica21]

Lakmoots wrote...
some stuff

:facepalm:

[errant_knight]

Lakmoots wrote...

Those were both very well thought and mature posts... so please ignore this.

But...

The idea of remodelling your boyfriends personality to be "more manly" is about as reprehensible as a man forcing his girl into three-way sex in order to "loosen her up" socially.

Bioware were very clever to mirror these options and choices.

Men are rather attached to their personality - and most demand to be accepted for who they are.

This thread, and soooo many others, are full of rather crass justifications on why this is an okay thing to do... It is manipulative and cruel.

It is about as mature as dressing up your puppy.

If any girl *really* thinks that this is justifiable emotional behavior towards a member of the male species... then I would suggest you enjoy your digital romance...

...because you won't get much more than pixels trying that in RL.

Someone in this thread mentioned how Zevran loved and supported you no matter what... who knew boys wanted that too...

Good Grief!

I'm assuming that you're responding to something that was said earlier in the thread that you found...offputting, I will say that I'm often taken aback by the way Alistair is discussed, and that if the same kind of things were said about a female character, there would be significantly more reaction. Well, there's the fairly horrifying 'slap Morrigan' thing, but that seems to have limited followers. Most people don't  actually find smacking women all that amusing.

So, given that you found my post well thought out and mature (thanks , and presumably others to be less so, perhaps we could cover more ground if you responded to it?

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 février 2010 - 07:22 .

[Sandtigress]

Lakmoots, what you fail to realize is that not everyone plays this game like you do. The majority of us here are doing our best to RP the game, which means that not every conversation you are given is going to represent the exact choice your character would make. Sometimes you have to make do with what the game gives you and just come up with the rest on your own.



After all, unless you do that, most of the relationships are kind of silly anyways - you have a couple of dozen conversations with people and fall in love with them? No, the conversations we are allowed to have are only the basis for what the characters themselves would share.



Just the same, while the wording of Alistair's hardening is something very few of my characters would actually say to him at the moment, the result of the hardening is exactly what they are aiming for - a more confident young man who is more assured of himself and the abilities he possesses. So for the story's sake, I have to pick a topic that is out of character but has the desired result, and just hand wave at the line itself.

[Monica21]

Just out of curiosity, since I think most of us don't particularly like the line of dialogue even if we understand its meaning, how difficult would it be to mod that line?

[Lakmoots]

errant_knight wrote...

Lakmoots wrote...


Good Grief!

I'm assuming that you're responding to something that was said earlier in the thread that you found...offputting, I will say that I'm often taken aback by the way Alistair is discussed, and that if the same kind of things were said about a female character, there would be significantly more reaction. Well, there's the fairly horrifying 'slap Morrigan' thing, but that seems to have limited followers. Most people don't  actually find smacking women all that amusing.

Yes... Exactly

We are talking about things here that are *completely* wrong in any kind of sexual politics. This would be a reprehensible thing to do to a woman...

But there is no shortage of girls who seem to like treating Alistair like a puppy to be molded to "the way I want"... even using some pretty slim justifications like "he wants it"... buh...

I assume it is an age thing, and I thought that perhaps pointing out that this is the *same* manipulation that  can be applied to Leliana... with awful results.

It is no more mature than a post saying how it is "right" to harden Leliana and make her perform a threesome... because she is "happy" to choose it (once I have emotionally manipulated her, that is).

Due to the hostility factor, I think I will leave the girls to dress their puppies and slowly back out of the room...