534 réponses à ce sujet

[Cuddlezarro]

if girls wanted a puppy alistair they wouldent even harden him in the first place



not every one who hardens Leliena or Alistair do it because of a single scene that isnt even referenced again once it happens



theres also a big difference between helping people to accept their past(leliena) and giving them more self confidence in their selves(Alistair) and forcing them to go through with a threesome/foursome that doesnt even show anything and in the grand scheme of things does nothing but add an amusing dialogue

[Sandtigress]

Gotta love how he didn't read a thing we wrote, eh? Like Alistair's hardening doesn't change his actual personality...or that we don't do it to get threesomes but because it makes him who he really is...or that hardening him is better for him, regardless of romance....but none of those things matter, right? :-P

[Monica21]

Really, I don't know why I bother because it's like talking to a brick wall at this point.

Lakmoots wrote...
But there is no shortage of girls who seem to like treating Alistair like a puppy to be molded to "the way I want"... even

And you continue to miss the point and blame it on age or other nonsense. What you're missing is that if you haven't played it then you haven't had the dialogue with him afterwards. So basically, you have no idea what you're talking about and you'll never win if you argue from a point of ignorance. Yes, he does want it, and no part of his dialogue indicates that you're pushing him or using him. You even have the chance to say "don't do this because I said it" and he still changes. So yes, Alistair changes because he wants to and not because the PC wants him to.

[Cuddlezarro]

Sandtigress wrote...

Gotta love how he didn't read a thing we wrote, eh? Like Alistair's hardening doesn't change his actual personality...or that we don't do it to get threesomes but because it makes him who he really is...or that hardening him is better for him, regardless of romance....but none of those things matter, right? :-P

as Teal'c would say "indeed"

im not a woman so hardening him has nothing to do with the threesome at all since you wont sleep with another guy

and I dont even like leliena so I wouldent want her to join in in the first place! the one person I do have the threesome with is Zevran and theres nothing manipulative about that

[Sandtigress]

lol I always say "You don't have to do it just because I said it" because its such a silly line. You're asking him not to do something you said to do, which if the poor guy was going to do it just because you said it ought to make his head really spin!



While I must admit that hardening Alistair is for the much better, I will always do that scene unhardened first, because I love his cute little "You're a true friend and I.....love you." line. I can hear the thoughts running in his head "Oh please say you love me too and not just as a friend and I can't believe I just said that aloud and omg what is she thinking right now?!"

[Lakmoots]

No... its not a brick wall... it is a reasoned argument.

You make an assumption that I haven't seen the results of that dialogue chain.

You also aren't really taking into account what you say and do to cause this. He chooses it as a result of the actions you implemented... just because you cannot talk him around post-cruelty is not a sign he wants it... his soft spirit is broken and he becomes a harder, more selfish man - or to put it another way he "stands up for himself".

Look, I guess it is a point of view, and I will desist in arguing. It is however, a valid point.

It would be like me saying: You girls would think better if I hardened you.

It is the same thing.

[Cuddlezarro]

lol I always say "You don't have to do it just because I said it" because its such a silly line. You're asking him not to do something you said to do, which if the poor guy was going to do it just because you said it ought to make his head really spin!

silly doesnt describe the line

even with the fact my characters tend to be pragmatic that lines just god awful

edit: again Alistair DOES NOT become a more selfish man if you harden him what part of that do you NOT understand his dialogue is 99% the same!

and like I said in my previous post Im not a woman!

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 07 février 2010 - 07:47 .

[Sandtigress]

Heh if we were incredibly self-conscious with low self-esteem and a lack of sense about our own self-worth and talents and you as a friend helped us to see our self-worth and embrace our talents so that we became better and more effective people......yes, we would be better if you hardened us.

[Lakmoots]

Through a cruel rebuke at a crucial emotional time in your life?



Grow the **** up...

[Cuddlezarro]

Sandtigress wrote...

Heh if we were incredibly self-conscious with low self-esteem and a lack of sense about our own self-worth and talents and you as a friend helped us to see our self-worth and embrace our talents so that we became better and more effective people......yes, we would be better if you hardened us.

didnt you know low self esteem and letting people trample over you without any care about your own wellbeing is good!

edit: and again We KNOW the wording is horrible

the outcome of it is not however horrible at all

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 07 février 2010 - 07:53 .

[Monica21]

Lakmoots wrote...

No... its not a brick wall... it is a reasoned argument.

You make an assumption that I haven't seen the results of that dialogue chain.

You also aren't really taking into account what you say and do to cause this. He chooses it as a result of the actions you implemented... just because you cannot talk him around post-cruelty is not a sign he wants it... his soft spirit is broken and he becomes a harder, more selfish man - or to put it another way he "stands up for himself".

Look, I guess it is a point of view, and I will desist in arguing. It is however, a valid point.

It would be like me saying: You girls would think better if I hardened you.

It is the same thing.

What is it about the results of the dialogue chain that you don't like then? Since your implication is that you have seen it but "we girls" didn't know that.

He chooses it as a result of actions that he asked for. He wanted to go see his sister, so you took him. The dlalogue is poorly worded and I didn't choose on my first playthrough because of it. After reading some of the posts here, I decided to take a shot and go with it, and was surprised by his reaction. And for the record, his personality remains intact. There isn't a separate offshoot of dialogue the rest of the game for a hardened Alistair. The only thing it affects are what happens at the Landsmeet and the epilogue card. Wanting to be king because he believes he can be king (as well as being the heir and the last of the Theirin blood) is hardly selfish.

[Cuddlezarro]

Alistair should have gotten an entire conversation dedicated to hardening him like Leliena did



not a god awful line just after you see his **** of a sister

[Sandtigress]

Lakmoots wrote...

Through a cruel rebuke at a crucial emotional time in your life?

Grow the **** up...

How about you read what I wrote before?  Very few of my characters would have chosen to say that line, in character, at that moment.  However, the only way to get the result that they would have gone for - a more self-assured, confident Alistair - is to use that particular dialogue tree.  So in order to get the result that they would be aiming for through normal conversation that the game simply can't show us, I have to use that tree.

Does it mean that my characters wouldn't be offering him a supporting shoulder at that moment?  Not at all.  As far as the story itself is concerned, they're his emotional support at that moment (and one is wondering what her chances of sneaking back in and knifing Goldanna are).  As far as the game goes, yes, I have to pick a less desirable dialogue tree to do it.

You are confusing game mechanics with RP mechanics.  Until you get the fact that we are separating the two straight, you're going to keep misinterpreting, or completely ignoring, our arguments.

[nos_astra]

For me the line is purely game mechanic. It's a poorly implemented flag I need to set at this point because I think that being in love with my PC would lead to this outcome: a more self-confident Alistair who believes that he's allowed to find happiness even if that means others have to pass on some benefits.



Hardening would take a lot more than one crappy line and a friend or a lover would do this by instinct because if you care for someone you do influence them. That has nothing to do with manipulating this person.



In fact it's a lesson my husband needed to learn and I was trying to "teach" him. Funny, because it makes it harder for everyone including myself to manipulate him.

[nos_astra]

For me the line is purely game mechanic. It's a poorly implemented flag I need to set at this point because I think that being in love with my PC would lead to this outcome: a more self-confident Alistair who believes that he's allowed to find happiness even if that means others have to pass on some benefits.



Hardening would take a lot more than one crappy line and a friend or a lover would do this by instinct because if you care for someone you do influence them. That has nothing to do with manipulating this person.



In fact it's a lesson my husband needed to learn and I was trying to "teach" him. Funny, because it makes it harder for everyone including myself to manipulate him.

[Sabriana]

None of my PCs end up with Alistair, but they want him to realize that he has great potential, and doesn't need to be a follower.

The game mechanics are really bad for this, but it cannot be done any other way. There should be a way to do it more gently, but there simply isn't one available.

To not make Alistair more aware of his own self, and to stand up for himself is cruel. He hates being King when 'unhardened' and what's more, he's a far better King and far better for the people of Ferelden when 'hardened'.

Semantics, that's what makes this whole thing a bit distasteful. It was poorly done, but only from the mechanics.

When he learns that he can be strong, and should take charge of his own life, instead of being everyone's puppet, he is much happier in the end.

My PC will not let him go through life being a string-puppet for anyone, be it Anora, Eamon, whathaveyou. That would be cruel, mean, and downright hateful. She loves Zevran, so it has nothing to do with sex/love/queen/whateverelse.

[ejoslin]

The funny thing is there have been so many discussions from women who hate hardening Alistair -- the wording is harsh, and he has far more romantic lines if you don't.

[Sabriana]

Yeah, and if you don't, he'll have somebody or other pulling his strings all his life, without the chance of being his own man. Poor Alistair.

[ejoslin]

There is an assumption that there is a lot more conversation going on than what you actually see. This is borne out in comments that are made by other companions. Leliana talks about standing guard with the warden, talking until the wee hours; Zevran makes a comment about talking later about something (I won't put the spoiler here). I just assume that that was PART of the conversation, not the entire thing.



It is game mechanics, but the result is a more confident Alistair who finally is willing to stand up for himself. Not a bad thing. He certainly didn't take what the warden said as a bad thing -- so if he's not offended, why should you be?

[Sabriana]

There most certainly must be more going on behind the scenes, leaving it up to RPing. I mean, it's really hard to imagine that those people won't talk to each other, be it in the camp or on the road.



The companions also talk amongst each other. Leliana told my PC that Zevran informed her of something. (Tattler, lol). It was another one of theses moments where my PC realized that she inadvertently turned Leliana's romance back on.

[ejoslin]

Leliana saying that Zevran told her -- I find that funny since Wynne will say you and Zevran are so loud that you keep everyone awake all night. So why did he need to tell her? You know she must have asked him! Right?

[Herr Uhl]

ejoslin wrote...

Leliana saying that Zevran told her -- I find that funny since Wynne will say you and Zevran are so loud that you keep everyone awake all night. So why did he need to tell her? You know she must have asked him! Right?

It was intense practice. Leli is an optimist!

Sitting there cradling, "they're only training, they're only training..."

[Sabriana]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Leliana saying that Zevran told her -- I find that funny since Wynne will say you and Zevran are so loud that you keep everyone awake all night. So why did he need to tell her? You know she must have asked him! Right?

It was intense practice. Leli is an optimist!

Sitting there cradling, "they're only training, they're only training..."

That is so very funny!



True, I've never thought of that. She couldn't bring herself to think it, so she had to hear him say it out loud.

[Herr Uhl]

I think the tattles is a circle of Zev, Wynne, Leli and Ali.



Oghren doesn't sodding give a crap, Sten is Sten, Shale is Shale, Morrigan is asocial, I can't picture Loghain gossiping and dog is a dog.

[ejoslin]

Sabriana wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

Leliana saying that Zevran told her -- I find that funny since Wynne will say you and Zevran are so loud that you keep everyone awake all night. So why did he need to tell her? You know she must have asked him! Right?

It was intense practice. Leli is an optimist!

Sitting there cradling, "they're only training, they're only training..."

That is so very funny!



True, I've never thought of that. She couldn't bring herself to think it, so she had to hear him say it out loud.

Actually, that's a conversation I can almost picture.  Her with an angry face and all!