I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
Alistair Vs. Zevran as a romance partner
Débuté par
ejoslin
, janv. 28 2010 09:31
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#27
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:12
ejoslin
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Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
Please don't insult my husband. Who is the most amazing man I've ever met -- and I say that after being with him for a couple of decades. Of course, I AM married to someone who picks up his own socks and cleans up after himself.
Modifié par ejoslin, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:12 .
#28
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:12
Sabriana
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1 in 1,000,000?
You give generous odds, Addai
Edited to add:
Well, Ejoslin, some people win the lottery, and others find rare specimens to marry,
You give generous odds, Addai
Edited to add:
Well, Ejoslin, some people win the lottery, and others find rare specimens to marry,
Modifié par Sabriana, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:13 .
#29
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:16
ejoslin
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Sabriana wrote...
1 in 1,000,000?
You give generous odds, Addai
Edited to add:
Well, Ejoslin, some people win the lottery, and others find rare specimens to marry,
I have to admit, when we first got married, my family raved about how lucky I was. They still do, and I still agree with them. But my dad is very much the same way. I just happened to meet an incredibly nice, mature, hard working, clean person, who's smart to boot and doesn't mind my video game addictions! Oh, did I mention good looking? *grin* I'm not that much of a prize, but apparently I have something he likes!
#30
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:17
Sarielle
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Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
I'm still trying to figure out why you'd marry a man who didn/t do any of those things you mention.
#31
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:22
Addai
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Hence my caveat.ejoslin wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
Please don't insult my husband. Who is the most amazing man I've ever met -- and I say that after being with him for a couple of decades. Of course, I AM married to someone who picks up his own socks and cleans up after himself.
I didn't mean to imply an insult, sorry. It's just not unusual in my experience to have a man who's on the laddish side. I like 'em that way, myself. What IS unusual is to find a man who is both laddish and laid-back while being extremely gentlemanly and gentle towards a woman. That's my husband, and I think Alistair fits this bill well. Zevran is a gentleman, too, of course. I stand by my refusal to prefer one to the other.Cat person or dog person, red wine or white wine, dark chocolate or milk chocolate, Alistair or Zevran... why choose. My poor PCs eventually have to, natch.
Modifié par Addai67, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:22 .
#32
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:28
errant_knight
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It depends entirely on the PC. Both have admirable qualities, both have flaws. One isn't 'better' than the other, they're just different.
Side note: now taking bets as to how long this thread will go on before someone loses an eye. It's like watching small children play with sharp sticks.
Side note: now taking bets as to how long this thread will go on before someone loses an eye. It's like watching small children play with sharp sticks.
Modifié par errant_knight, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:33 .
#33
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:29
DarthRomance
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SusanStoHelit wrote...
@DarthRomance: wow, was that mature discussion and evaluation - or just plain gut-level condemnation without consideration? Fail.
Nope having spent like 100s of hours in game with him that is my feeling about him. Okay maybe I am immature and I kind of hate him but it is just a game. It doesn't help that it feels like the 40 year old virgin is whining because he has a chance to become an epic hero and acts like surviving Catholic school - I mean Chantry - was a big deal when my city elf female just had to survive her wedding. And speaking of religion, he says it sucks but then gives Morrigan grief about being Apostate and the Chantry. I feel like he is a preppy d-bag sometimes acting like some party members aren't normal cuz they don't fit the Ferelden tradition.
Meanwhile Zevran who went through much more is tough enough to shrug it off and say that is just the way it is. Now that I can respect.
#34
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:33
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
I agree. Though my husband is the clean freak, not I, he is quite needy and more emotional about alot of things than I. But he is rare, the majority of males I have known, either in relationships or as friends or aquaintences, had a strong element of boyhood still lingering in them. I think that in general, most men truly never grow out of certain elements of adolescence the way women do, and the "inner boy" never really leaves.
I find Alistair's boyishness to be rather refreshing and endearing, as opposed to the irritating macho archetypes usually found in other RPG leads. It's one of the reasons I don't like hardening him. The world is already filled with more than it's share of cynical, self-interested hard asses out for themselves. The hopeful idealist who never shed that youthful spirit of optimism and hope is a rare gem, however unrealistic and deluded they may be in terms of how reality functions.
#35
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:36
errant_knight
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Sialater wrote...
Alistair will say he agrees after the fact, but stays silent if you go against his principles. I think that's more a symptom of his plot sensitivity than his personality, though. If he spoke up at every decision, since he's the one guy you CAN'T get rid of, it would be too much like leading the player to 'make the right decisions.'
Exactly! I tried to say this in a different thread and didn't do half so well.
#36
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:36
SusanStoHelit
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DarthRomance wrote...
Then you should have said that. This is a much more reasoned argument - if still larded with pejoratives. This is supposed to be an evaluation of two people, a comparison, and you're supposed to supply reasons for both sides. It's a debate, in other words. Or, if you prefer, you're presenting a thesis (as you would in an essay). You have to present both sides. And the good and bad points of each.
Of course feelings come into it, and personal preferences. But the way you worded your post was biased and dismissive.
[Edited for formatting.]
Nope having spent like 100s of hours in game with him that is my feeling about him. Okay maybe I am immature and I kind of hate him but it is just a game. It doesn't help that it feels like the 40 year old virgin is whining because he has a chance to become an epic hero and acts like surviving Catholic school - I mean Chantry - was a big deal when my city elf female just had to survive her wedding. And speaking of religion, he says it sucks but then gives Morrigan grief about being Apostate and the Chantry. I feel like he is a preppy d-bag sometimes acting like some party members aren't normal cuz they don't fit the Ferelden tradition.
Meanwhile Zevran who went through much more is tough enough to shrug it off and say that is just the way it is. Now that I can respect.
Then you should have said that. This is a much more reasoned argument - if still larded with pejoratives. This is supposed to be an evaluation of two people, a comparison, and you're supposed to supply reasons for both sides. It's a debate, in other words. Or, if you prefer, you're presenting a thesis (as you would in an essay). You have to present both sides. And the good and bad points of each.
Of course feelings come into it, and personal preferences. But the way you worded your post was biased and dismissive.
[Edited for formatting.]
Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 28 janvier 2010 - 11:37 .
#37
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:42
sarahkay
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DarthRomance wrote...
Zevran is a man and Alistair is a little boy. If you are a female character and want someone to mentor, change diapers, dress in the morning, or behave like a teenager with, Alistair is the one. Otherwise Zevran is your man.
A little exaggerated... just a little... But you obviously never hardened Alistair
I prefer the hardened Alistair the best (no pun intended). I prefer Alistair either way over Zev, personality wise.
He's awkward, charming, silly, and everything I would want in a man IRL. But as the storyline plays out, Zev's romance after the Landsmeet was the best.
#38
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:44
le_cygne
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Zevran all the way.
I enjoy Alistair as a character, but for me, his personality drives him to the naive sidekick role, or, most recently, to the "convenient route to the throne." It's not that he's a bad guy, but that his milquetoast personality makes it hard for me (and thus my characters) to take him seriously as a romantic partner, or even as a close friend . (Mild ending spoilers this sentence: ) Putting him on the throne without Anora as co-ruler seems criminal to me as a player, though not necessarily to all of my characters.
Zevran, on the other hand, is amazing. He's upfront, respectful, and asks what the warden thinks. He actually cares about the possibility of hurting other characters, and goes out of his way to make sure that doesn't happen. Basically, he's an adult. Sandtigress wrote about Zev that "I think its his over-confident approach, perhaps, that turns me off a little as a player and from my PCs points of view so far." For me, though, from the first playthrough, his overconfident approach always seems to belie an endearing and resonant vulnerability balanced by honesty and worldliness. (Fantastic work from a voice actor who clearly understands the character certainly doesn't hurt.) Zev's mature enough to be cool with sex, and also mature enough to know the importance of real friendship and real love. He could be your buddy, your fling, your best friend, or your lover, and he'd be understanding and respectful. And that's why he's so great.
Granted, Zev's blase attitude toward human life isn't something one would look for in real life, but in the context of a game where most human life is cheap isn't as jarring. And indeed, if the warden brings it up, he's wise enough to call her on it.
(Not to drag the ladies into it, but Leliana strikes me as similar to Zev in some respects. I honestly didn't expect to like her, because, like Alistair, she's a silly goofball on the surface. But after a bit of conversation, she also strikes me as having Zevran's emotional maturity and confidence, if not his straightforwardness. She might talk hair and shoes, but as opposed to Alistair, she seems to understand herself and others like a mature adult would, even down to the uncertainty real people in real relationships sometimes display.)
I enjoy Alistair as a character, but for me, his personality drives him to the naive sidekick role, or, most recently, to the "convenient route to the throne." It's not that he's a bad guy, but that his milquetoast personality makes it hard for me (and thus my characters) to take him seriously as a romantic partner, or even as a close friend . (Mild ending spoilers this sentence: ) Putting him on the throne without Anora as co-ruler seems criminal to me as a player, though not necessarily to all of my characters.
Zevran, on the other hand, is amazing. He's upfront, respectful, and asks what the warden thinks. He actually cares about the possibility of hurting other characters, and goes out of his way to make sure that doesn't happen. Basically, he's an adult. Sandtigress wrote about Zev that "I think its his over-confident approach, perhaps, that turns me off a little as a player and from my PCs points of view so far." For me, though, from the first playthrough, his overconfident approach always seems to belie an endearing and resonant vulnerability balanced by honesty and worldliness. (Fantastic work from a voice actor who clearly understands the character certainly doesn't hurt.) Zev's mature enough to be cool with sex, and also mature enough to know the importance of real friendship and real love. He could be your buddy, your fling, your best friend, or your lover, and he'd be understanding and respectful. And that's why he's so great.
Granted, Zev's blase attitude toward human life isn't something one would look for in real life, but in the context of a game where most human life is cheap isn't as jarring. And indeed, if the warden brings it up, he's wise enough to call her on it.
(Not to drag the ladies into it, but Leliana strikes me as similar to Zev in some respects. I honestly didn't expect to like her, because, like Alistair, she's a silly goofball on the surface. But after a bit of conversation, she also strikes me as having Zevran's emotional maturity and confidence, if not his straightforwardness. She might talk hair and shoes, but as opposed to Alistair, she seems to understand herself and others like a mature adult would, even down to the uncertainty real people in real relationships sometimes display.)
#39
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:47
SurelyForth
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Hardened Alistair > Zevran > Unhardened Alistair
On Zev: Yes, he is more romantic in the end game. He has dealt with his traumatic life with more grace and strength than anyone should be able to. He is also a fully formed person when you meet him- you don't change him as much as you take ownership of one another (does that make any sense?). That opens up his character, but he's fundamentally the same in the end, only completely in love with you.
I have had two characters that he was perfect for. Neither of those characters were dear to me or similar to me so, while I had fun with them, I didn't lose myself while playing them the way I have with others. They liked that he spoke up, they liked that he's pragmatic. His self-possessiveness was a turn on and the depth they found under his glib facade was an unexpected and welcome surprise.
My other characters grew fond of him, many have kept him on in the endgame as support, but there are three things that keep them and me from being able to really cotton onto him as a character. His outspokenness is refreshing BUT (and I feel the same way with all of the companions who will openly diss or mock someone I'm trying to help or work with) sometimes the PC just needs to take care of business and comments from the peanut gallery are unwelcome or potentially dangerous. I don't think there are any incidents where companion commentary can change outcomes, but as I'm roleplaying I want to be "Would you shut up? I'm trying to get some help, and if that means biting my tongue when Murdoch is sexist or Harrowmont wants me to do his dirty work, then you should respect that and follow my lead."
I hate that he sides with Branka during the Anvil of the Void. For me, destroying it is one of the biggest no-brainers in the game. It enslaves souls, which is no better than enslaving people, and (even worse!) it makes them all but immortal slaves. I get why Morrigan would want to keep it, but Zevran should really know better.
Third, and biggest (and to draw Alistair into this) Zev will turn his weapon against you and your other companions in the game unless you curry his favor. The PC has no reason to not kill him after the failed assassination attempt and no reason to befriend him once he is spared. It bugs me from a characterization standpoint that he can be a medium gold bar away from not joining in at all and still jump you and your other companions. Alistair will swallow his humanity a thousand times and still stand beside you because he knows you are necessary to end the Blight and even if you betray him in the worse way possible (to him), he will simply walk away rather than attack you. The fact that I can trust Alistair at -100 more than I can Zev at +50 is a huge reason why I prefer the former as a character and a companion.
On Alistair: Yes, he's all but embryonic when you get him and clueless in a lot of areas. Yes, he's too sentimental by half until you harden him. Yes, he'll dump you in front of your friends. And yes, there's the Alistair you get if you spare Loghain who is like a papercut with added bitterness.
Beyond that, though, he is funny, deceptively quick, charming, self-aware (perhaps painfully so), and genuinely good-hearted. He also enters into the relationship with the PC knowing full well how the deck is stacked against him- their duty as Grey Wardens and his duty as the only living heir to the crown make a happy ending highly unlikely. His relationship with the PC will always be more complicated and fraught with potential for doom and heartbreak because of who he is, and who the PC is, than Zev's or Leliana's. He risks more to be with the PC than any other romance option has to.
Alistair also has a more satisfying character arc, for me, because he can end up in such a different place if you harden him vs. not hardening him and he changes in more ways than just how he treats you- he reacts differently to the world. It feels like an accomplishment to put him on the throne and see him be happy and successful at it, because you contributed to that.
Ultimately, though, I "get" him as a character, all the good and bad parts. It took several playthroughs for the romance to click, but save for the two PC's who ended up with Zevran, I always saw him as my closest confidant and ally, a real person who could be trusted. That has an appeal for me above and beyond how the romance is sustained or not in the end (and I believe that, if he and the PC are together in the end, he truly loves her).
On Zev: Yes, he is more romantic in the end game. He has dealt with his traumatic life with more grace and strength than anyone should be able to. He is also a fully formed person when you meet him- you don't change him as much as you take ownership of one another (does that make any sense?). That opens up his character, but he's fundamentally the same in the end, only completely in love with you.
I have had two characters that he was perfect for. Neither of those characters were dear to me or similar to me so, while I had fun with them, I didn't lose myself while playing them the way I have with others. They liked that he spoke up, they liked that he's pragmatic. His self-possessiveness was a turn on and the depth they found under his glib facade was an unexpected and welcome surprise.
My other characters grew fond of him, many have kept him on in the endgame as support, but there are three things that keep them and me from being able to really cotton onto him as a character. His outspokenness is refreshing BUT (and I feel the same way with all of the companions who will openly diss or mock someone I'm trying to help or work with) sometimes the PC just needs to take care of business and comments from the peanut gallery are unwelcome or potentially dangerous. I don't think there are any incidents where companion commentary can change outcomes, but as I'm roleplaying I want to be "Would you shut up? I'm trying to get some help, and if that means biting my tongue when Murdoch is sexist or Harrowmont wants me to do his dirty work, then you should respect that and follow my lead."
I hate that he sides with Branka during the Anvil of the Void. For me, destroying it is one of the biggest no-brainers in the game. It enslaves souls, which is no better than enslaving people, and (even worse!) it makes them all but immortal slaves. I get why Morrigan would want to keep it, but Zevran should really know better.
Third, and biggest (and to draw Alistair into this) Zev will turn his weapon against you and your other companions in the game unless you curry his favor. The PC has no reason to not kill him after the failed assassination attempt and no reason to befriend him once he is spared. It bugs me from a characterization standpoint that he can be a medium gold bar away from not joining in at all and still jump you and your other companions. Alistair will swallow his humanity a thousand times and still stand beside you because he knows you are necessary to end the Blight and even if you betray him in the worse way possible (to him), he will simply walk away rather than attack you. The fact that I can trust Alistair at -100 more than I can Zev at +50 is a huge reason why I prefer the former as a character and a companion.
On Alistair: Yes, he's all but embryonic when you get him and clueless in a lot of areas. Yes, he's too sentimental by half until you harden him. Yes, he'll dump you in front of your friends. And yes, there's the Alistair you get if you spare Loghain who is like a papercut with added bitterness.
Beyond that, though, he is funny, deceptively quick, charming, self-aware (perhaps painfully so), and genuinely good-hearted. He also enters into the relationship with the PC knowing full well how the deck is stacked against him- their duty as Grey Wardens and his duty as the only living heir to the crown make a happy ending highly unlikely. His relationship with the PC will always be more complicated and fraught with potential for doom and heartbreak because of who he is, and who the PC is, than Zev's or Leliana's. He risks more to be with the PC than any other romance option has to.
Alistair also has a more satisfying character arc, for me, because he can end up in such a different place if you harden him vs. not hardening him and he changes in more ways than just how he treats you- he reacts differently to the world. It feels like an accomplishment to put him on the throne and see him be happy and successful at it, because you contributed to that.
Ultimately, though, I "get" him as a character, all the good and bad parts. It took several playthroughs for the romance to click, but save for the two PC's who ended up with Zevran, I always saw him as my closest confidant and ally, a real person who could be trusted. That has an appeal for me above and beyond how the romance is sustained or not in the end (and I believe that, if he and the PC are together in the end, he truly loves her).
Modifié par SurelyForth, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:48 .
#40
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:48
Nonvita
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ejoslin wrote...
Sabriana wrote...
1 in 1,000,000?
You give generous odds, Addai
Edited to add:
Well, Ejoslin, some people win the lottery, and others find rare specimens to marry,
I have to admit, when we first got married, my family raved about how lucky I was. They still do, and I still agree with them. But my dad is very much the same way. I just happened to meet an incredibly nice, mature, hard working, clean person, who's smart to boot and doesn't mind my video game addictions! Oh, did I mention good looking? *grin* I'm not that much of a prize, but apparently I have something he likes!
Are you sure he's human?
As for Alistair vs. Zevran... I love them both. Really, I do.
Alistair's just the perfect "Knight in Shining Armor": romantic, sweet, innocent, and loving. And that voice, oh that voice! He's fun to tease, too, which I love. The kinds of jokes he makes and the PC's reactions feel like something I would do in real life, if an Alistair actually existed, so it clicks for me. I don't really see him as too childish, but then I'm only 21 and I'm used to being with guys his age. (I think his appearance is a little deceiving- it's too easy to forget he's barely out of his teens!)
But I think, in the end, I'm more of a Zevran girl. Not just because I'm bitter at Alistair, or anything... But, well, I love a good dirty joke or two. And I love blatant, joking flirting. Zevran somehow works for me on a more basic, natural level. The fact that he becomes so much deeper of a character as time goes by... well, it only makes him more appealing in my eyes. I like guys who take charge, but still think about their partner's emotions, and Zevran is just right.
That said, I find myself romancing Alistair in more playthroughs, simply because I think there are more ways to approach the relationship. Also I'm too attached to the relationship one of my characters has with Zevran- I think I (as my character) would get jealous of me (as my other character) doing anything with him...
#41
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:51
Truby-Liz
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I think, irl, I would probably go for Zevran. He's quite a bit like my first (and currently only) ex-boyfriend, albeit a fair bit older and more mature. Also he has long hair which, for some reason, I find irresistable. 
(Mmm, long hair) I'd keep Alistair as a friend - I know some people who are actually quite like Ali, but I doubt I would ever fancy them. 
My first PC, Aminthe, went out with Alistair for most of the game. Until the Landsmeet, where he broke up with her in front of a whole room of people. She didn't quite know what to do with herself, until she talked to Zevran, who, with the help of a funny poem and a few massages, managed to heal her heart. They've stayed together to rebuild the Wardens, though Aminthe can't seem to shake the feeling that she's not quite over Alistair by the end...
My second and current playthrough, I'm an elf mage, named Morag, who got seriously close to Alistair because she saw far too many similarities between him and Cullen. However, she just did Broken Circle, and Cullen said something about mages and templars romancing would be like a sin. She has a tendancy to get very close to guys, and she trusts Cullen, so that put quite a bit of doubt in her mind. Also she's a blood mage and remembers what Ali said in Redcliffe about blood magic. So she broke up with Ali, and is just starting to flirt with Zev.
Truby-Liz
(Mmm, long hair) I'd keep Alistair as a friend - I know some people who are actually quite like Ali, but I doubt I would ever fancy them. My first PC, Aminthe, went out with Alistair for most of the game. Until the Landsmeet, where he broke up with her in front of a whole room of people. She didn't quite know what to do with herself, until she talked to Zevran, who, with the help of a funny poem and a few massages, managed to heal her heart. They've stayed together to rebuild the Wardens, though Aminthe can't seem to shake the feeling that she's not quite over Alistair by the end...
My second and current playthrough, I'm an elf mage, named Morag, who got seriously close to Alistair because she saw far too many similarities between him and Cullen. However, she just did Broken Circle, and Cullen said something about mages and templars romancing would be like a sin. She has a tendancy to get very close to guys, and she trusts Cullen, so that put quite a bit of doubt in her mind. Also she's a blood mage and remembers what Ali said in Redcliffe about blood magic. So she broke up with Ali, and is just starting to flirt with Zev.
Truby-Liz
#42
Posté 28 janvier 2010 - 11:52
Jaulen
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Sarielle wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
I'm still trying to figure out why you'd marry a man who didn/t do any of those things you mention.
Here, here!
My hubby, cooks, cleans, does laundry, and helps takes care of the kid.....
Wouldn't date/marry a guy that expected me to work full time AND come home to work second shift 1) all by myself, or 2) mostly by myself....
#43
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:03
Jaulen
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SurelyForth:
" It bugs me from a characterization standpoint that he can be a medium gold bar away from not joining in at all and still jump you and your other companions. Alistair will swallow his humanity a thousand times and still stand beside you because he knows you are necessary to end the Blight and even if you betray him in the worse way possible (to him), he will simply walk away rather than attack you. The fact that I can trust Alistair at -100 more than I can Zev at +50 is a huge reason why I prefer the former as a character and a companion. "
But if you haven't gotten Zev's approval, why WOULDN'T he turn away from you and his unknown future, to his KNOWN past?
Vs Alistair OTOH, if you spare Loghain, even if you have him at 100% love and all that, he WALKS!!! Hello? We have a friggin' blight to stop....you'd think having 4 GWs would be better odds than 3.....and Hmm, how often does Duncan, or even Alistair himself say something to the effect of "What ever it takes to end a blight."
THAT is a bigger betrayal and slap in the face than an underappoval rated Zevran going off with his buddys and trying to kill you.
I will still play Alistair romances for certain RPing reasons......but if I don't have a RPing reason to pick him, it's going to be Zevran or no-one.
" It bugs me from a characterization standpoint that he can be a medium gold bar away from not joining in at all and still jump you and your other companions. Alistair will swallow his humanity a thousand times and still stand beside you because he knows you are necessary to end the Blight and even if you betray him in the worse way possible (to him), he will simply walk away rather than attack you. The fact that I can trust Alistair at -100 more than I can Zev at +50 is a huge reason why I prefer the former as a character and a companion. "
But if you haven't gotten Zev's approval, why WOULDN'T he turn away from you and his unknown future, to his KNOWN past?
Vs Alistair OTOH, if you spare Loghain, even if you have him at 100% love and all that, he WALKS!!! Hello? We have a friggin' blight to stop....you'd think having 4 GWs would be better odds than 3.....and Hmm, how often does Duncan, or even Alistair himself say something to the effect of "What ever it takes to end a blight."
THAT is a bigger betrayal and slap in the face than an underappoval rated Zevran going off with his buddys and trying to kill you.
I will still play Alistair romances for certain RPing reasons......but if I don't have a RPing reason to pick him, it's going to be Zevran or no-one.
#44
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:07
Addai
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Er, well... I feel the need now to defend my husband. He does help out with the house, he just has a different internal orientation towards stuff than I do. I like to say he doesn't see dirt that I see. And he wears holey t-shirts in public, so the whole Alistair dialogue with Wynne is familiar except Alistair actually tries to sew his. LOL
I have to speak up and say that, having known people who live in monastic contexts, that being a virgin does not equal immaturity, even immaturity about relationships. There's a story in the book Cloister Walk about a woman who was used to being ignored because she was homely, who came to life around the monks because they talked to her like a real person rather than trying to fit her on a scale of ****ability (sorry to be crude but you get my meaning). I can see this in Alistair a bit. Yes, he did not want to be in a monastery, and my take on him is that one reason is that he wanted a woman- at least, that's how I interpret his comment that he would like to see more women in the Grey Wardens. However, he does not flirt with you until you do- contrast Daveth; he makes no disparaging comments whatsoever about you being a woman who fights (as several NPCs do, not just Sten); he trusts in your leadership. Is Arl Eamon a boy because he wants your support for his decisions?
He does help out with the house, he just has a different internal orientation towards stuff than I do. I like to say he doesn't see dirt that I see. And he wears holey t-shirts in public, so the whole Alistair dialogue with Wynne is familiar except Alistair actually tries to sew his. LOLI have to speak up and say that, having known people who live in monastic contexts, that being a virgin does not equal immaturity, even immaturity about relationships. There's a story in the book Cloister Walk about a woman who was used to being ignored because she was homely, who came to life around the monks because they talked to her like a real person rather than trying to fit her on a scale of ****ability (sorry to be crude but you get my meaning). I can see this in Alistair a bit. Yes, he did not want to be in a monastery, and my take on him is that one reason is that he wanted a woman- at least, that's how I interpret his comment that he would like to see more women in the Grey Wardens. However, he does not flirt with you until you do- contrast Daveth; he makes no disparaging comments whatsoever about you being a woman who fights (as several NPCs do, not just Sten); he trusts in your leadership. Is Arl Eamon a boy because he wants your support for his decisions?
Modifié par Addai67, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:12 .
#45
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:11
melkathi
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Jaulen wrote...
Wouldn't date/marry a guy that expected me to work full time AND come home to work second shift 1) all by myself, or 2) mostly by myself....
I don't think any woman should settle for that. Housework is work and I believe work should be shared equally. Obviously, if one of the two partners is working overtime and only gets home after a 12 hour shift, then it would be equaly selfish to tell them that their part of the chores was not done because they are supposed to do it (not saying anyone in this forum has such an attitude, just that there are people who are like that).
Personally, as a member of the male persuasion, I pick up my socks and do not leave the toilet seat up
Though do not expect me to dust. Like many men dusting just doesn't occur to me until I pick something up from a shelf and notice the cloud.
#46
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:11
DarthRomance
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sarahkay wrote...
DarthRomance wrote...
Zevran is a man and Alistair is a little boy. If you are a female character and want someone to mentor, change diapers, dress in the morning, or behave like a teenager with, Alistair is the one. Otherwise Zevran is your man.
A little exaggerated... just a little... But you obviously never hardened Alistair
I prefer the hardened Alistair the best (no pun intended). I prefer Alistair either way over Zev, personality wise.
He's awkward, charming, silly, and everything I would want in a man IRL. But as the storyline plays out, Zev's romance after the Landsmeet was the best.
Okay my bad to you and Susan. It's true I did not harden him so maybe it is different. I have only played through completely once and I picked the "you've got us" responses. I wanted him to feel like he had a home after he got dumped by his sister cuz I am not a total jerk.
#47
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:17
Sandtigress
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Jaulen wrote...
Vs Alistair OTOH, if you spare Loghain, even if you have him at 100% love and all that, he WALKS!!! Hello? We have a friggin' blight to stop....you'd think having 4 GWs would be better odds than 3.....and Hmm, how often does Duncan, or even Alistair himself say something to the effect of "What ever it takes to end a blight."
THAT is a bigger betrayal and slap in the face than an underappoval rated Zevran going off with his buddys and trying to kill you.
I
I think all this depends on how you see his actions at the Landsmeet. When it happened to me on my first playthough, I think both (unhardened) Alistair and my PC were heartbroken that it had come to that. She begged him not to go, he walked away saying "I guess I always knew I wasn't meant to be so happy." It was betrayal on both their ends - she for supporting Loghain knowing how he felt about the matter, he for walking out on the Wardens and leaving her behind.
Just like anyone else, Alistair has his breaking point, that point at which he has to say "No more, I just can't go that far." Taking in the guy who destroyed his entire surrogate family including the one man who cared about him as a person and was his surrogate father was that breaking point, and really, I see where he's coming from. To my point of view, that's an incredibly justifiable point at which to say to hell with it all and walk away. I'd be angry and a little more than willing to walk away from my duty then too, I think, if duty has done nothing but ruin your life and the only small happy moments you ever had.
In any case, I don't and never have found his leaving a despicable or childish action, though I can see where people might say that it is.
#48
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:19
Sarielle
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Jaulen wrote...
Sarielle wrote...
Addai67 wrote...
I think those who say you have to mother Alistair have never been the wife of a man. A normal man, that is, not the 1 in 1,000,000 who pick up their dirty socks off the floor and clean up after their messes in the kitchen. Alistair is no more a "child" than any of them. Being vulnerable and shy + gentlemanly in your first intimate relationship hardly qualifies as childish.
I'm still trying to figure out why you'd marry a man who didn/t do any of those things you mention.
Here, here!
My hubby, cooks, cleans, does laundry, and helps takes care of the kid.....
Wouldn't date/marry a guy that expected me to work full time AND come home to work second shift 1) all by myself, or 2) mostly by myself....
It might have something to do with why I'm 26 and am not -- nor have ever been -- married, either.
Taking care of a dog is plenty work; I never want children, and I certainly wouldn't want to have to take care of a husband (not in the like, pet him when he's sick sense, but in the every day, picking up after, cooking for, etc.) My current boyfriend and I usually cook dinner in tandem, for instance, when our schedule allows us to eat together.
Of course, we also don't live together (I likes my own place <3) so I realize that changes the dynamic a bit.
EDIT: @ Sandtigress: Yeah, I actually respect the character of Alistair a lot more after he refuses to let Loghaine live.
Modifié par Sarielle, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:20 .
#49
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:22
SurelyForth
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Maybe Zevran shouldn't turn away from the PC because she showed him mercy when she didn't have to, and has done nothing to betray him since, while Taliesen was his friend and came after him with the intent of killing the Warden and probably Zevran, too, since he basically betrayed the Crows by joining up with us and not completing his contract.
And I know why Alistair leaves and I cannot blame him (and again, he just leaves and doesn't commit violence against you). In his mind, Loghain is the worst person in the world and he cannot allow himself to work alongside him. The PC knows this and, if they let Loghain join the Wardens, it is the equivalent to saying "Screw you, Alistair, but I would rather side with the man who made our job a million times harder and pretty much ruined our lives than side with you." Is it really as black or white as that? Not really, there are reasons to keep Loghain alive, but from Alistair's perspective it is an unforgiveable betrayal of your friendship. Even the strongest of my PC's, a HN, would bolt if he decided to make Howe a Warden, so I absolutely cannot blame him. I can, however, mock him afterwards.
And I know why Alistair leaves and I cannot blame him (and again, he just leaves and doesn't commit violence against you). In his mind, Loghain is the worst person in the world and he cannot allow himself to work alongside him. The PC knows this and, if they let Loghain join the Wardens, it is the equivalent to saying "Screw you, Alistair, but I would rather side with the man who made our job a million times harder and pretty much ruined our lives than side with you." Is it really as black or white as that? Not really, there are reasons to keep Loghain alive, but from Alistair's perspective it is an unforgiveable betrayal of your friendship. Even the strongest of my PC's, a HN, would bolt if he decided to make Howe a Warden, so I absolutely cannot blame him. I can, however, mock him afterwards.
Modifié par SurelyForth, 29 janvier 2010 - 12:25 .
#50
Posté 29 janvier 2010 - 12:27
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
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Sandtigress wrote...
I think all this depends on how you see his actions at the Landsmeet. When it happened to me on my first playthough, I think both (unhardened) Alistair and my PC were heartbroken that it had come to that. She begged him not to go, he walked away saying "I guess I always knew I wasn't meant to be so happy." It was betrayal on both their ends - she for supporting Loghain knowing how he felt about the matter, he for walking out on the Wardens and leaving her behind.
Just like anyone else, Alistair has his breaking point, that point at which he has to say "No more, I just can't go that far." Taking in the guy who destroyed his entire surrogate family including the one man who cared about him as a person and was his surrogate father was that breaking point, and really, I see where he's coming from. To my point of view, that's an incredibly justifiable point at which to say to hell with it all and walk away. I'd be angry and a little more than willing to walk away from my duty then too, I think, if duty has done nothing but ruin your life and the only small happy moments you ever had.
In any case, I don't and never have found his leaving a despicable or childish action, though I can see where people might say that it is.
QFT, FTW. This. It says it all.
Everyone has a breaking point, a line that should never be crossed, a button never pushed, no matter how involved you are. Spare Loghain, and you just found Alistair's.
Anyways, sandtigress, you summed it up better than i could have.
