534 réponses à ce sujet

[Sabriana]

Lol @ Ejoslin



I wonder what Zevran's reaction would be. Technically, there's nothing going on between his Warden and Leliana. She never even flirted (intentionally) with the bard.

[ejoslin]

Hah, I see the conversation something like this:



Leliana: I overheard something last night and I wanted to know . . . Are you and the warden . . . are you . . .?

Zevran: Well, yes!



Though why Zevran would think either the femWarden or Leliana is a man after that I'm not sure . . .

[Herr Uhl]

I think he would be amused. How can you not be amused when Leli comes with an angry face asking questions with obvious answers.

[ejoslin]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I think he would be amused. How can you not be amused when Leli comes with an angry face asking questions with obvious answers.

Hahaha, yes.  I think he would be as well.  In fact, *I'm* amused just thinking about it.

[Sabriana]

Amused and a bit puzzled.



Hah! That must be it. Leliana confused poor Zevran utterly and totaly, lol. So much so, that he can't tell the women from the men for a moment.

[maxernst]

Sabriana wrote...

The game mechanics are really bad for this, but it cannot be done any other way. There should be a way to do it more gently, but there simply isn't one available.
To not make Alistair more aware of his own self, and to stand up for himself is cruel.

The problem is (and I just went by that line in the game) from an RP standpoint, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to choose that line...especially not the way my conversation with Goldanna went.  Alistair never even tried to persuade me to give her money, he just  told me he would do whatever he could to see that she and her children were taken care of.  I went with "You don't need her.  You have others who care about you"...which is more truthful, more comforting, and more in character than the line that's supposed to harden him. 

The Goldanna scene and the ensuing hardening would work a lot better if Goldanna didn't act like such a complete ****.  If she were presented as somebody who saw Alistair as an opportunity to get some quick cash, so she pretended to be nice to him, then telling him to watch out for himself would make more sense. 

[SusanStoHelit]

@ maxernst



I don't think anyone disagrees with you. We've all said that the line sucks - and I know I'd love it if they changed it. But some of us want Alistair to be stronger, and we know that's the only way to get him to be so. I've gone so far as to say that the line is not only cruel, it's an outright lie, and you cannot roleplay it as being good for him as it stands. Those who say you can, go on to explain how they reinterpret it. I think it's one of the few badly written lines in the whole game - but since we've got no other choice, we take it.



If you choose to do so - or not - is up to you.

[errant_knight]

maxernst wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

The game mechanics are really bad for this, but it cannot be done any other way. There should be a way to do it more gently, but there simply isn't one available.
To not make Alistair more aware of his own self, and to stand up for himself is cruel.

The problem is (and I just went by that line in the game) from an RP standpoint, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to choose that line...especially not the way my conversation with Goldanna went.  Alistair never even tried to persuade me to give her money, he just  told me he would do whatever he could to see that she and her children were taken care of.  I went with "You don't need her.  You have others who care about you"...which is more truthful, more comforting, and more in character than the line that's supposed to harden him. 

The Goldanna scene and the ensuing hardening would work a lot better if Goldanna didn't act like such a complete ****.  If she were presented as somebody who saw Alistair as an opportunity to get some quick cash, so she pretended to be nice to him, then telling him to watch out for himself would make more sense. 

Back in camp, Alistair says that you said something completely different, something a lot more resonable. To my mind, that's what you're actually saying, and it's written the way it is so there isn't a giant flashing arrow pointing to that line with 'pick this one' underneath it.

[SurelyForth]

I think that Alistair's hardening should be tied to Eamon putting him forward as the heir. I can't imagine a more opportune time to discuss the importance of not being a doormat than after *that* conversation.



Of course, if that were the case, I don't know what the purpose of the Goldanna quest would be. Well, besides to make me want to hug him even more than I already do.

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think that Alistair's hardening should be tied to Eamon putting him forward as the heir. I can't imagine a more opportune time to discuss the importance of not being a doormat than after *that* conversation.

Of course, if that were the case, I don't know what the purpose of the Goldanna quest would be. Well, besides to make me want to hug him even more than I already do.

That would have been good. Perhaps it should have been tied to your responses in both conversations, one about letting Eamon know he wouldn't be pulling any strings, and one relating to Goldana and her 'family acceptance=show-me-the-money' attitude. That might have been too complex, though, and made changing his attitude hit or miss for some.

And yeah, the whole Goldana thing is just painful. I threatened to cut her tongue out one time because I just couldn't help myself, but reloaded when I saw  that it upset Alistair.  Last thing I want to do is make things worse....

Modifié par errant_knight, 08 février 2010 - 04:50 .

[Sabriana]

A two step process? Sounds good to me. Why shouldn't his development start at Eamon's and end at Goldanna. It would make far more sense than that abrupt turning he's forced to undergo in game.



It's a good thing I have good imagination. I just aim my pointer at the line, close my eyes and pretend my PC is far gentler. True enough, the lines at camp are far better, at least she doesn't have to stuff such an unfeeling line down his throat again.

[Sandtigress]

Random thought, since I now realize that in my last game the romance was bugged.

If Alistair breaks up with you at the Landsmeet but remains properly in love, will that activate the Morrigan banter he has where she comments on the relationship ending?   The bugged romance flag could explain why I never got that one, if it does.

Modifié par Sandtigress, 10 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[SusanStoHelit]

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that. And since I now have both Dialogue Tweaks and the Alistair Dialogue patch, I'm hoping that most of the buggy dialogues are a thing of the past. Although I'm thinking of taking a look at the new Leliana one too.

I love the level of the dialogue in this game, the interactions with npcs, including romances. But the way that they're bugged can - quite literally - destroy a romance. Or start one that you never intended. I'm not talking about making the 'wrong' choices, but about making the right ones and still having things turn pear shaped. Oh well.

[Edited - expanded on  a point.]

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 10 février 2010 - 09:37 .

[SurelyForth]

Sandtigress wrote...

Random thought, since I now realize that in my last game the romance was bugged.

If Alistair breaks up with you at the Landsmeet but remains properly in love, will that activate the Morrigan banter he has where she comments on the relationship ending?   The bugged romance flag could explain why I never got that one, if it does.

I'm starting to think that banter is a myth.  The only reason I can think of for having not heard it was that Morrigan always has 100 approval with my PC and that might keep it from triggering.

[Sandtigress]

I've heard it on YouTube, so I would assume it exists (unless the person who got it has some friends who do really great imitations). Perhaps the Morrigan at 100 thing might do it, she's usually there with my PCs too, at least the girls so far. Maybe the thing to do is not give her the mirror until post-Landsmeet but pre-Redcliffe.

[ejoslin]

Ok, I'm reopening this after posting inappropriately in a Alistair-love thread!

Ummmm, I guess I'll say this, regarding who actually commits to the warden.

Alistair and the Warden, if he's made king, establish exactly what their relationship is after the landsmeet. As he is king, it is done quite publicly, which I suppose is something that they both have to deal with. There's no such thing as privacy for a king. But that does mean, post coronation, that his comments are from that perspective.

When Zevran asks if he can accompany the warden, really, though they've made an emotional commitment to each other, their future has not been established. Zevran does ask for a promise of a future that he can't even put into words (perhaps-- if you ask him if it would be better if the two of you stopped), but as far as what's happening and where you're going, it's not even known until after the post-coronation celebration. It's a game mechanic for sure.

Edit: Of course, Alistair is FAR more confident of the relationship and his place in it.  I don't think he ever doubts for a moment either his or the warden's feelings 

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 04:46 .

[Monica21]

If Alistair is at Love, his commitment is emotional too so I'm not sure how one is any better than the other. His preference is to be with the Warden, but as I stated in the other thread he simply doesn't have the same freedoms that Zevran has. I don't see this as a question of his commitment at all.

[ejoslin]

Monica, I already told you I agreed with you there! I said all that. I was actually responding to someone saying that Alistair showed more of a commitment than anyone else. I should have stayed out of the Ali squee thread, though.

[Monica21]

Okay. I guess it's a bit confusing as your wording is "who actually commits." And I'm also trying to get ready for work so I was probably missing the clues from another thread. Since I haven't played the Zevran romance (I keep trying to, but it just doesn't do anything for me) I can't comment on what he does or doesn't say.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Ok, I'm reopening this after posting inappropriately in a Alistair-love thread!

Ummmm, I guess I'll say this, regarding who actually commits to the warden.

Alistair and the Warden, if he's made king, establish exactly what their relationship is after the landsmeet. As he is king, it is done quite publicly, which I suppose is something that they both have to deal with. There's no such thing as privacy for a king. But that does mean, post coronation, that his comments are from that perspective.

When Zevran asks if he can accompany the warden, really, though they've made an emotional commitment to each other, their future has not been established. Zevran does ask for a promise of a future that he can't even put into words (perhaps-- if you ask him if it would be better if the two of you stopped), but as far as what's happening and where you're going, it's not even known until after the post-coronation celebration. It's a game mechanic for sure.

Edit: Of course, Alistair is FAR more confident of the relationship and his place in it.  I don't think he ever doubts for a moment either his or the warden's feelings 

I was going to respond in the other thread that even Warden Alistair assumes the relationship is continuing, even though there is no conversation to establish that.

The point I was even trying to make in the first place was mostly just about Alistair and the lack of credit he gets for what he does right. I think so many players get dumped by him, and then pick up with Zevran (who is pretty much primed by the game at that point to be the Ultimate Rebound) that it's very easy to overlook the fact that, even though he can and will end the relationship (and unless you harden him you have no say) he truly doesn't want to. With the Blight out of the way and the throne settled, you can see that he really is committed to being with the Warden. I think it highlights how very heavily his responsibilities weigh on him in the game and it gives some insight into why he seems to pull back towards the endgame.

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

I was going to respond in the other thread that even Warden Alistair assumes the relationship is continuing, even though there is no conversation to establish that.

The point I was even trying to make in the first place was mostly just about Alistair and the lack of credit he gets for what he does right. I think so many players get dumped by him, and then pick up with Zevran (who is pretty much primed by the game at that point to be the Ultimate Rebound) that it's very easy to overlook the fact that, even though he can and will end the relationship (and unless you harden him you have no say) he truly doesn't want to. With the Blight out of the way and the throne settled, you can see that he really is committed to being with the Warden. I think it highlights how very heavily his responsibilities weigh on him in the game and it gives some insight into why he seems to pull back towards the endgame.

I think you're right, that Alistair doesn't get the credit that is due him in a lot of ways.  But I also think the dynamic of the relationship between Alistair and the Warden are different.  Alistair is far more confident in it, for one, than Zevran is.

See, Alistair and the Warden do have several talks about their future, but mainly in the context that he doesn't see it as being possible if he's king (which is why the breakup shouldn't be a surprise if it happens). Those types of talks about the future are not in either Zevran's or Leliana's romances, so it makes sense that they wouldn't take a future with the Warden for granted.  It's not that they don't want to, and it's not that they are any less committed -- they just haven't had those conversations.

[ejoslin]

Monica21 wrote...

If Alistair is at Love, his commitment is emotional too so I'm not sure how one is any better than the other. His preference is to be with the Warden, but as I stated in the other thread he simply doesn't have the same freedoms that Zevran has. I don't see this as a question of his commitment at all.

I meant that any romance partner is committed to the warden.  That Alistair is not more or less committed than anyone else.

Modifié par ejoslin, 04 mars 2010 - 05:15 .

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

I think you're right, that Alistair doesn't get the credit that is due him in a lot of ways.  But I also think the dynamic of the relationship between Alistair and the Warden are different.  Alistair is far more confident in it, for one, than Zevran is.

See, Alistair and the Warden do have several talks about their future, but mainly in the context that he doesn't see it as being possible if he's king (which is why the breakup shouldn't be a surprise if it happens). Those types of talks about the future are not in either Zevran's or Leliana's romances, so it makes sense that they wouldn't take a future with the Warden for granted.  It's not that they don't want to, and it's not that they are any less committed -- they just haven't had those conversations.

I know you can talk to Leliana about what you plan on doing after everything is over, and it feels like the two of you come to an agreement to stay together and travel (I imagine these adventures involve a lot of shoe-shopping and even more giggly nights playing dress-up).

And even if you do talk to Alistair about your future, there are no definites unless you ask after he's hardened and made king- he'll say that he has to think about it (although, if he's hardened, the implication is that it's less whether or not you'll be together and more how that will work).

[errant_knight]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think you're right, that Alistair doesn't get the credit that is due him in a lot of ways.  But I also think the dynamic of the relationship between Alistair and the Warden are different.  Alistair is far more confident in it, for one, than Zevran is.

See, Alistair and the Warden do have several talks about their future, but mainly in the context that he doesn't see it as being possible if he's king (which is why the breakup shouldn't be a surprise if it happens). Those types of talks about the future are not in either Zevran's or Leliana's romances, so it makes sense that they wouldn't take a future with the Warden for granted.  It's not that they don't want to, and it's not that they are any less committed -- they just haven't had those conversations.

I know you can talk to Leliana about what you plan on doing after everything is over, and it feels like the two of you come to an agreement to stay together and travel (I imagine these adventures involve a lot of shoe-shopping and even more giggly nights playing dress-up).

And even if you do talk to Alistair about your future, there are no definites unless you ask after he's hardened and made king- he'll say that he has to think about it (although, if he's hardened, the implication is that it's less whether or not you'll be together and more how that will work).

How does that work? After landsmeet, aren't you already either his fiancee, broken up, or his future mistress?

[ejoslin]

SurelyForth wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

I think you're right, that Alistair doesn't get the credit that is due him in a lot of ways.  But I also think the dynamic of the relationship between Alistair and the Warden are different.  Alistair is far more confident in it, for one, than Zevran is.

See, Alistair and the Warden do have several talks about their future, but mainly in the context that he doesn't see it as being possible if he's king (which is why the breakup shouldn't be a surprise if it happens). Those types of talks about the future are not in either Zevran's or Leliana's romances, so it makes sense that they wouldn't take a future with the Warden for granted.  It's not that they don't want to, and it's not that they are any less committed -- they just haven't had those conversations.

I know you can talk to Leliana about what you plan on doing after everything is over, and it feels like the two of you come to an agreement to stay together and travel (I imagine these adventures involve a lot of shoe-shopping and even more giggly nights playing dress-up).

And even if you do talk to Alistair about your future, there are no definites unless you ask after he's hardened and made king- he'll say that he has to think about it (although, if he's hardened, the implication is that it's less whether or not you'll be together and more how that will work).

I've never completed the game with Leliana as a romance partner, but it seemed from what I've read it was more involved.  But since I haven't seen it, I could be wrong.

Again, yes, no definites are discussed with Alistair if he's not made king, but again, YOU have made extremely clear to him no matter what that you want a future with him (when you ask where it's going, you can tell him you want to stay with him, but that conversation seems to be either let him know you want him no matter what or break up).  You don't get that with Zevran.  The closest you get is after he declares his feelings, you can ask him if it would be better if you two break up, and he says, basically, only if there is no possibility of a future.