230 réponses à ce sujet

[Gaddmeister]

Mezinger wrote...

chenDawg wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

People can argue about it all they want... it's still an RPG it's not an RPG... point blank is a lot of people who really enjoyed ME1 are upset about ME2... and these aren't cry baby's who don't like any changes... these are old school, long term, profitable fans of the Bioware company... this is bad news.

Not that I'm against making your fans happy, but I'm quite sure they made far more money off of the new fans who loved the new gameplay over the few that cried over change.

Sure and maybe the founders are quite happy to become just another money making division of EA, confirming all the long time fans fears when they sold out, *ouch that just sounds bad*, but Bioware has a long tradition for making rockstar RPGs from a small independent studio in the northern-ish area of Canada with a strong band of devoted fans who looked forward to every release... maybe they want to give that all up to cash in with the Call of Duty crowd... time will tell what their response is to their long term fan base being vocal about their / our disappointment... who knows... but we're negligent if we don't voice our disgruntlement and hope that Bioware will hear us and correct their future course... naive and optimistic perhaps... but we've been fans so long it's worth a shot.

No no no... First of all,  I have to consider myself a long time fan (beed adoring Bioware since 1999 and Baldur's Gate) and I disagree with your opinion on the "money making division", so not ALL long time fans thank you very much. Second, every division of every company must make money, otherwise they cannot continue producing games.

Regarding Call of Duty and shooters in general, I don't think Bioware are targeting people who only like shooters, that will never work. They will get bored with the rpg dialogue and character development etc. Instead, they are targeting gamers who like many different genres (like someone mentioned earlier), I'm being one of them.

Also, I'm really surprised to see so many people complaining about how they turned ME2 to a shooter. I always considered ME1 a shooter/action, slimmed down rpg, only the shooter elements were not as refined and good as in this game. The levels were repetitive, there were frame rate issues on the Xbox, the controls were not as good. In this game (which I've put a couple of hours into) the combat is really fluid and it's really fun. I have to say the combat design/level design/gameplay team(s) (or how they're organised) have done a great job! Wow!

Ok, so they've removed the (hideous) inventory, they've eliminated open world exploring with the Mako (but perhaps this will be added again with the Hammerhead?), they've removed stat based aiming and they've given us less powers to use on the battlefield. Were there more things I have missed? Are these things really that game breaking? Can't you enjoy the game for what it is, even if it's not exactly what you expected?

I don't miss the Mako, imo salvaging probes were never fun so I went straight to the mission whenever I was in my Mako. Regarding the aiming, I could go either way, but since Shepard should be an elite soldier, I think he should be able to aim right from the start. Also, the player did most of the aiming in ME1 anyway. Etc etc etc...

So, how did anyone not think that ME2 would have (oh so great!!!) shooter elements? Having played ME1, did you guys really expect a massively deep rpg? I didn't. ME2 is pretty much what I expected, what I waited for, what I hoped for... and what I got! And it is totally awesome!

Modifié par Gaddmeister, 29 janvier 2010 - 09:31 .

[Shallina]

I have started ME2. Got walkmesh bug, and several crash at the same place. The ammo clip is out of place. It's not the amo clip the problem, it's that they are everywhere on the ground and universal. That's just plain stupid. Ok for ammo clip, but don't make them pop like mushroom.

Many cuts. No inventory. Very few armors, very few weapon, no more "mount". Despite all of that, I think ME2 is a good game, I like it ten time more than DAO. But all the cut feature make me doubt about Bioware future. Now it's clear, I won't buy a Bioware game without looking twice.

Modifié par Shallina, 29 janvier 2010 - 09:40 .

[Lequin]

umm, I second doing your research before buying a game. i mean, consumers should have some sense and all that....



http://www.metacriti...seffect2?q=mass effect 2



there ya go, avg review is 95. great game, go get it if you like the mass effect universe!

combat is actually quite fluid and tedious elements removed/replaced by alot less tedious elements!

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

But the majority of your longest dearest fans are enjoying it very much, and that majority is currently playing it, not sitting here on the forums whining like a bunch of spoiled little ****es.

[Mezinger]

AlanC9 wrote...

How come so many Baldur's Gate fans can't spell the game's name right? It's not like they didn't see it spelled right hundreds of times.

Good for you! You caught a typo way to add to the discussion. Gold star for you.

[Mezinger]

AlanC9 wrote...

Wolverfrog wrote...

I consider RPGs to be games where you're free to do what you want. For example, in Oblivion, I can be a Warrior, a Thief, a Magician. I can also be an Orc who decided to go against the norm and learn magic. I can be an Argonian Assassin who always kills his targets in an honourable battle. I can be a Wood Elf who's a devious and ruthless trader (I actually did this once, it was awesome.)

That's not what most people mean by RPG. It's a style of RPG, but not the only style.

In fact, you can find groups of RPG fans who think that such freedom violates the essential characteristic of RPGs, since that freedom is purchased by removing all meaningful consequences from the game. Drop by RPGCodex if you want to meet some of them. Though with tastes like yours, you'd better wear an asbestos suit if you go there.

I'm not sure if it's most or not, but I'm with the group who thinks the big open world does violate one of the normal RPG tenants... I wasn't going to address it because to each is own, but I stayed away from Oblivion and even Fallout 3 or these reasons.... I don't see being able to walk in any direction for and "infinite" amount of time advantageous to a good story / game experience.

Though that said the fact that you had to have the last name Shepard and had to have a military (both for obvious reasons) really bugged some RPG fans in ME1 (I'm talking PNP fans here) didn't bug me though. 

Regardless nice post.

[TileToad]

Wolverfrog wrote...

Today's game industry is dominated by the shooter market. Bioware catered to that.

If you don't like shooters, well then, it's your loss.

A real gamer enjoys many game genres; FPS, TPS, RPG, RTS -- all of them. If you don't then you're just a fanboy who bought an expensive gaming rig just to play a couple of games.

And still people wonder why games get dumbed down...

[Mezinger]

Gaddmeister wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

chenDawg wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

People can argue about it all they want... it's still an RPG it's not an RPG... point blank is a lot of people who really enjoyed ME1 are upset about ME2... and these aren't cry baby's who don't like any changes... these are old school, long term, profitable fans of the Bioware company... this is bad news.

Not that I'm against making your fans happy, but I'm quite sure they made far more money off of the new fans who loved the new gameplay over the few that cried over change.

Sure and maybe the founders are quite happy to become just another money making division of EA, confirming all the long time fans fears when they sold out, *ouch that just sounds bad*, but Bioware has a long tradition for making rockstar RPGs from a small independent studio in the northern-ish area of Canada with a strong band of devoted fans who looked forward to every release... maybe they want to give that all up to cash in with the Call of Duty crowd... time will tell what their response is to their long term fan base being vocal about their / our disappointment... who knows... but we're negligent if we don't voice our disgruntlement and hope that Bioware will hear us and correct their future course... naive and optimistic perhaps... but we've been fans so long it's worth a shot.

No no no... First of all,  I have to consider myself a long time fan (beed adoring Bioware since 1999 and Baldur's Gate) and I disagree with your opinion on the "money making division", so not ALL long time fans thank you very much. Second, every division of every company must make money, otherwise they cannot continue producing games.

Regarding Call of Duty and shooters in general, I don't think Bioware are targeting people who only like shooters, that will never work. They will get bored with the rpg dialogue and character development etc. Instead, they are targeting gamers who like many different genres (like someone mentioned earlier), I'm being one of them.

Also, I'm really surprised to see so many people complaining about how they turned ME2 to a shooter. I always considered ME1 a shooter/action, slimmed down rpg, only the shooter elements were not as refined and good as in this game. The levels were repetitive, there were frame rate issues on the Xbox, the controls were not as good. In this game (which I've put a couple of hours into) the combat is really fluid and it's really fun. I have to say the combat design/level design/gameplay team(s) (or how they're organised) have done a great job! Wow!

Ok, so they've removed the (hideous) inventory, they've eliminated open world exploring with the Mako (but perhaps this will be added again with the Hammerhead?), they've removed stat based aiming and they've given us less powers to use on the battlefield. Were there more things I have missed? Are these things really that game breaking? Can't you enjoy the game for what it is, even if it's not exactly what you expected?

I don't miss the Mako, imo salvaging probes were never fun so I went straight to the mission whenever I was in my Mako. Regarding the aiming, I could go either way, but since Shepard should be an elite soldier, I think he should be able to aim right from the start. Also, the player did most of the aiming in ME1 anyway. Etc etc etc...

So, how did anyone not think that ME2 would have (oh so great!!!) shooter elements? Having played ME1, did you guys really expect a massively deep rpg? I didn't. ME2 is pretty much what I expected, what I waited for, what I hoped for... and what I got! And it is totally awesome!

Ok sorry not ALL long time fans? 80/20 rule? I don't know... I am really surprised that ME2 is pretty much what you expected and clearly not everyone agrees they dramatically altered the RPG underpinnings of the game... but some of us do... and here we are.  Did we expect it to be a massively deep RPG no, the same mechanics / flavour (not including the "vastly improved combat") as the original. Yes! 

It's not as if we're on here complaining it's not turn based <_< 

[Darth_Shizz]

TileToad wrote...

Wolverfrog wrote...

Today's game industry is dominated by the shooter market. Bioware catered to that.

If you don't like shooters, well then, it's your loss.

A real gamer enjoys many game genres; FPS, TPS, RPG, RTS -- all of them. If you don't then you're just a fanboy who bought an expensive gaming rig just to play a couple of games.

And still people wonder why games get dumbed down...

They get "dumbed down" because some people enjoy gaming in all forms? 

Is homogenising genres actually what people mean when they refer to this being "dumbed down"? Last I heard, dumbing down was something else entirely.

[Mezinger]

Darth_Shizz wrote...

TileToad wrote...

Wolverfrog wrote...

Today's game industry is dominated by the shooter market. Bioware catered to that.

If you don't like shooters, well then, it's your loss.

A real gamer enjoys many game genres; FPS, TPS, RPG, RTS -- all of them. If you don't then you're just a fanboy who bought an expensive gaming rig just to play a couple of games.

And still people wonder why games get dumbed down...

They get "dumbed down" because some people enjoy gaming in all forms? 

Is homogenising genres actually what people mean when they refer to this being "dumbed down"? Last I heard, dumbing down was something else entirely.

No I don't think that's what TileToad meant, I think it was the tone of Wolverfrogs post that is the topic of TileToad's post... if somehow gamers don't like shooters they ain't real gamers... foe shizzile... or something... that kind of dumbing down. 

[Commander Darmok]

OP - I've been an RPG fan ever since I can remember, but you know what? The days of turn-based mechanics and stats controlling EVERYTHING are gone. I'm sorry you feel it's "dumbed down," as if anyone who doesn't agree couldn't possibly understand the intracacies of a damage roll. With newer and better technology, we just don't need to rely as heavily on those things anymore - why would you? I feel that the new ME mechanic works TONS better. It's more intuitive - upgrade the weapons you have rather than bothering to find 500 new ones. (In all honesty, you stuck with all the Spectre X gear in ME1 anyway.) To all of those who want a detailed review from a dedicated RPG fan, here it is:



ME2 is better than ME1 in every single way. Different =/= bad.

[Mezinger]

Commander Darmok wrote...

OP - I've been an RPG fan ever since I can remember, but you know what? The days of turn-based mechanics and stats controlling EVERYTHING are gone. I'm sorry you feel it's "dumbed down," as if anyone who doesn't agree couldn't possibly understand the intracacies of a damage roll. With newer and better technology, we just don't need to rely as heavily on those things anymore - why would you? I feel that the new ME mechanic works TONS better. It's more intuitive - upgrade the weapons you have rather than bothering to find 500 new ones. (In all honesty, you stuck with all the Spectre X gear in ME1 anyway.) To all of those who want a detailed review from a dedicated RPG fan, here it is:

ME2 is better than ME1 in every single way. Different =/= bad.

Haha I just said that we aren't complaining about it not being turn based... and here you are saying it is what we are complaining about.

Now stats yes there is an issue with stats, stats are very important to an RPG regardless of whether its turn based or not... some of us feel ME2 is a step backwards there... we rely on stats because we like stats, and the diversity, immersion, and progression it lets you maintain throughout the game, and the different party builds it allows you to create throughout the game.

Oh and BTW I bet my stack of old PNP RPG games is bigger than yours.  It's hard for me to even call ME2 an RPG...  (which was't the case with ME1) but hey to each his own right? 

[Orogenic]

OP- I agree with you 100%.



This is a thread that should stay on page one. Many people are going to be really disappointed if they buy ME 2 based on the strength of ME 1.

[Gilded Age]

AlanC9 wrote...
Drop by RPGCodex if you want to meet some of them. Though with tastes like yours, you'd better wear an asbestos suit if you go there.

LOLZ.  The RPG Codex.  Say hello to Skyway for me.  I would wear a hazmat suit too, for the duration of your visit.   Don't look anyone directly in the eye and, for god's sake, don't post anything -- especially not about Oblivion OR ME 1 being a "true" RPG.  They'll rip you to shreds and post pictures of 4Chan memes on top of it.

Modifié par Gilded Age, 29 janvier 2010 - 03:09 .

[dodger187]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

But the majority of your longest dearest fans are enjoying it very much, and that majority is currently playing it, not sitting here on the forums whining like a bunch of spoiled little ****es.

Or posting here whining about the people that are critizising? Hmm..Hard to see who the whiny person is.
I just say neither for now.
In my opinion its a good game but in comparison to ME 1 it suc** .
It hast practically no character development, it has no immersion and therefore lacks of atmosphere.
And your skill points of your "so developing character" have no affect to your accuracy.
Not to mention beaming me out of a "map" when the "quest" is done with a shooter like summary screen.
I am just saying that i hoped for an improved ME and not an entirely new gameplay that lacks rpg elements more then the first one already did.
It is a good game, dont get me wrong. But loving the first one i could be but dissapointed.
And for the ones saying "playing an character and identify with him is rpg". Then Max Payne 2 is one of the best RPGs thats out there.


And just to add something constructive though ^^ :

I like the upgrading system. I really like it better then having 20 weapons to look through after each planet.
That could stay for me. But i want more skills and i want them to influence the abbilities of my character and therefore influance the gameplay such as accuracy and such.
And i want a more important and more reacted on "bad good" thing like in Kotor.
And to make it perfect the "possibility" to land on planets with a vehicle or aircraft additional to just scanning.
And please more immersion between "maps" like in the first one. Then it would have been my game of the year and of the decade.

Modifié par dodger187, 29 janvier 2010 - 03:27 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Mezinger wrote...

chenDawg wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

I suppose if you say the core of Bioware is all about a good story than okay stated that broadly ME2 probably lives up to that standard... but if you think it takes more than a good story to make an RPG, and that ME2 is lacking some of those things... and that at its core Bioware is a rockstar RPG developer.... well you see where I'm going... 

There is a reason it is and has always been labeled an ACTION-RPG.

I don't agree, is ME2 supposed to be more of an ACTION-RPG then ME1? If that was always the intent I missed the memo.... I don't remember seeing anything for that prepared me for what I feel were dramatic changes in the overall feel of the game between ME1 and ME2... if there was a memo to that effect I missed it. The notion that ACTION-RPG somehow sums it up though is utterly flawed. 

Yes you missed the memo bro.

Suicide Mission..............Elite of the Elite Squad...........youre going to F stuff up= more action.

[Evil Johnny 666]

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

People can argue about it all they want... it's still an RPG it's not an RPG... point blank is a lot of people who really enjoyed ME1 are upset about ME2... and these aren't cry baby's who don't like any changes... these are old school, long term, profitable fans of the Bioware company... this is bad news.

You really played Mass Effect 1 for an RPG? You gotta be kidding me because if it is an RPG, it's gonna be one of the weakest out there. Don't get me wrong, it is an incredible game, just that every RPG element in it except dialogue weren't particularly good, enough that I think their exclusion is totally justified. I'd rather have limited different guns than 10 000 times the same one which doesn't make any difference except numbers (damage etc), I barely changed weapons because I was bored by the system, same for customization, it was only a waste of time, so taking these elements out only makes the thing the more better. As for combat, instead of a poor "rpg-ish" system, I'd rather have a true third person shooter one that works for real and that is fun. Mass Effect was never know for it's in-depth rpg elements, if I want to play an RPG, I'll play Morrowind or Oblivion. Seriously, I can't believe you guys whine about this, you would be more believable if you actually thought Mass Effect 1 was not worthy. Anyway, can't you guys have fun playing something else than rpgs? I like pretty much every genre, and what I look forward most is playing a GOOD game which Mass Effect 2 is. I don't care if Bioware stop doing RPGs, I only care that they do good games. If I want to play a Bioware rpg, I'll play KoTOR or Jade Empire.


Totally agree with Gaddmeister above. Finally some people who understands!

Modifié par Evil Johnny 666, 29 janvier 2010 - 03:31 .

[dodger187]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

People can argue about it all they want... it's still an RPG it's not an RPG... point blank is a lot of people who really enjoyed ME1 are upset about ME2... and these aren't cry baby's who don't like any changes... these are old school, long term, profitable fans of the Bioware company... this is bad news.

You really played Mass Effect 1 for an RPG? You gotta be kidding me because if it is an RPG, it's gonna be one of the weakest out there. Don't get me wrong, it is an incredible game, just that every RPG element in it except dialogue weren't particularly good, enough that I think their exclusion is totally justified. I'd rather have limited different guns than 10 000 times the same one which doesn't make any difference except numbers (damage etc), I barely changed weapons because I was bored by the system, same for customization, it was only a waste of time, so taking these elements out only makes the thing the more better. As for combat, instead of a poor "rpg-ish" system, I'd rather have a true third person shooter one that works for real and that is fun. Mass Effect was never know for it's in-depth rpg elements, if I want to play an RPG, I'll play Morrowind or Oblivion. Seriously, I can't believe you guys whine about this, you would be more believable if you actually thought Mass Effect 1 was not worthy. Anyway, can't you guys have fun playing something else than rpgs? I like pretty much every genre, and what I look forward most is playing a GOOD game which Mass Effect 2 is. I don't care if Bioware stop doing RPGs, I only care that they do good games. If I want to play a Bioware rpg, I'll play KoTOR or Jade Empire.

If you want e real good rpg play "Drakensang". THATS Character development.

[Mezinger]

Evil Johnny 666 wrote...

Mezinger wrote...

Bioware are you listening? Some of your longest dearest fans are very upset with your newest release.

People can argue about it all they want... it's still an RPG it's not an RPG... point blank is a lot of people who really enjoyed ME1 are upset about ME2... and these aren't cry baby's who don't like any changes... these are old school, long term, profitable fans of the Bioware company... this is bad news.

You really played Mass Effect 1 for an RPG? You gotta be kidding me because if it is an RPG, it's gonna be one of the weakest out there. Don't get me wrong, it is an incredible game, just that every RPG element in it except dialogue weren't particularly good, enough that I think their exclusion is totally justified. I'd rather have limited different guns than 10 000 times the same one which doesn't make any difference except numbers (damage etc), I barely changed weapons because I was bored by the system, same for customization, it was only a waste of time, so taking these elements out only makes the thing the more better. As for combat, instead of a poor "rpg-ish" system, I'd rather have a true third person shooter one that works for real and that is fun. Mass Effect was never know for it's in-depth rpg elements, if I want to play an RPG, I'll play Morrowind or Oblivion. Seriously, I can't believe you guys whine about this, you would be more believable if you actually thought Mass Effect 1 was not worthy. Anyway, can't you guys have fun playing something else than rpgs? I like pretty much every genre, and what I look forward most is playing a GOOD game which Mass Effect 2 is. I don't care if Bioware stop doing RPGs, I only care that they do good games. If I want to play a Bioware rpg, I'll play KoTOR or Jade Empire.

Yes I played ME1 as an RPG... I was perfectly happy with going from Assault Rifle +1 to Assault Rifle +7 in true RPG progression style... everyone likes something different in their games... and I thought ME1 was an awesome action-rpg. (Meaning not turned based).

[Jorlen]

I did (read a detailed review before purchase) and was fully aware of the surgery that was done on the gameplay elements, but I figured I'd enjoy the ride anyway. I am enjoying it, but it's not Mass Effect to me anymore. A good friend of mine who loved ME1 as much as I did couldn't believe it when I told him about the changes. He was crushed.



Bioware, please please hear us. It's not too late for Mass Effect 3. There must be some sort of middle ground.

[Kohaku]

Wolverfrog wrote...

Today's game industry is dominated by the shooter market. Bioware catered to that.

If you don't like shooters, well then, it's your loss.

A real gamer enjoys many game genres; FPS, TPS, RPG, RTS -- all of them. If you don't then you're just a fanboy who bought an expensive gaming rig just to play a couple of games.

Then I don't know why I spend hundreds of dollars a year on games. Mass Effect 2 did nothing to make me like TPS or FPS any more. I still don't like them and never will.

I guess I'll never be a real gamer.

[Allen63]

I guess I won't be sure until I finish (and I am slow).



I do think Bioware overdid the changes. ME2 is not a Sequel to ME1 in some important ways (combat). But, it is in other important ways (love the conversations). I agree, ME2 is a "shooterified" RPG.



Nonetheless, the "human interactions" are good enough to make me want to "adapt" to the new "mechanics". To adapt is a challenge of sorts -- I'm making a "game" of it.

[Feops1]

I found the changes a little jarring, but the original post sounds rather opposed to change for its own sake. There's complaint about dumbing things down then complaint about adding ammunition mechanics, which seem to contradict one another. There's complaint about the armor inventory when really all you did was upgrade your armor to the next tier of stats anyway - you do that via upgrades now - so inventory was mostly useless clutter. Etc.

[Spectre Impersonator]

wreck the game? What a joke, they made it so much better. The gameplay of ME1 was nothing special. Now it's actually FUN!