230 réponses à ce sujet

[Vioitty]

The amount of arrogance in this thread is staggering; if people happen to like a genre outside of a 'pure RPG' they are stamped as 'attention decifit'. What? Just because you are enthusastic about a genre, doesn't make you a better person than those who take the RPG genre casually.



Last time I checked, the RPG genre wasn't a static one. If it were, we wouldn't have great games series such as Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy etc. All are great in their own ways. A roleplaying game at the heart of it, is to experience a character and their story, which Mass Effect achieves through Shepard and the interaction with the universe, hence the RPG tag it gets. It also has a third person shooter mechanic for it's combat system, hence why the action-RPG / shooter-rpg tag exists for the game. If you play mass effect with the expectation of a story equivilant to a pen and paper rpg, then you deserve to be dissapointed.



I'm not saying that it's wrong to not like the game, quite to the contary if a genre (or sub-genre) isn't to your liking, then that is your taste. However, to blast those who DO like the game (and given the medium score for this game, quite a few people like it) as somehow lacking in intelligence, or being pawns to capitalism (seriously?) is very unfair and condescending. t



As for me personally, I've been trying to puzzle out the claims that Mass Effect 1 was a superior game, yet i just can't figure it out. The inventory system is clunky, the side quests are very linear and I grew tired of the 'collect 20 of 10 different things!!!' quests. I find the storyline in Mass Effect 2 a lot more streamlined, and the little bits and bobs (such as hacking, researching upgrades) a lot more original, exciting and easier on the player. I find Mass Effect 2 to be a refreshing experience and I am throughly enjoying the game.



Maybe it's because I play FPS, TPS, J-RPGS, W-RPGS, platformers etc, and can enjoy different takes on a game more than those who stick to one type of genre (or who dont like change). Maybe not. But I'm not of the opinion that people who don't like the game are somehow idiots, or 'non-bioware fans'. That would be silly.

[dvisti]

thanks op. you saved me 50 bucks. I enjoyed ME1, but thought it had already been dumbed way down from other bioware games. To here that ME2 is even more dumbed down is disheartening to say the least. It used to be when you heard the name Bioware that it meant a great game. Now it just means another EA money grubbing division. oh well.

[Solid N7]

hahaha op you are really a sad person that plays magic like yugioh or things like rpgs book your a freak please if you don´t like the dont play it period freak.

[Vioitty]

What do you guys mean by 'dumbed down'? Isn't implementing ammo the exact opposite of this?

[Sageless Ranger]

dvisti wrote...

thanks op. you saved me 50 bucks. I enjoyed ME1, but thought it had already been dumbed way down from other bioware games. To here that ME2 is even more dumbed down is disheartening to say the least. It used to be when you heard the name Bioware that it meant a great game. Now it just means another EA money grubbing division. oh well.

I don't get what all the hate is about, this game is amazing, while still keeping a decent amount of Rpg qualities, in ME1 every skill had basically four ranks, all of the points between those ranks didnt really matter that much, ME2 skills still has four ranks, just eliminated the useless points, plus every skill when fully upgraded has two upgrade options. I have, Kotor, Dragon age, and ME1 and ME2. While the ME series does not have the same RPG elements as Kotor, the story and character development and interactions, is superior. And to me, an amazing storyline is the most important part.

[MiSsSmOkEy20]

I just downloaded Mass Effect yesterday and I didnt really like it that much. It was fun but I didnt really like the story line, I wish it would of had more cut scenes explaining things. I still liked tho it wasnt that bad of a game since Im not very good at shooter games. I plan on buying ME2 next week, I thought it looked like a good game thats why I bought ME so I would understand whats going on..

[Sageless Ranger]

Ryuuichi009 wrote...

Honestly the arrogance is on both sides of the fence. RPG purists call shooter fans "dumb, overly eager, pay little attention to story, attention deficient." and I'm noticing shooter fans saying RPG people need to "suck less, are stupid." among other things. >_>

Thats why I make it a point to play every genre,  the only one I don't enjoy are sports games, but i don't think that people who do enjoy them are stupid or dumb, its just not my thing. And I'm ok with the fact that not everyone has the same likes and dislikes as me.

[Sereaph502]

Loved ME1



Loved ME2



The inventory managment in ME1 was lame. I can, however, understand that some people like finding a million different armor, weapons, and upgrades so that they can min/max to their hearts content and feel like they're progressing. Me, I feel like I progress just fine when I complete more and more sidequests/main quests. I don't need a million items dumped on me every five seconds to feel like I'm doing something.



The combat system has been refined. In ME1, it always felt a bit jerky. In ME2, it feels a lot more smooth. Sure, you have to use cover or you die, period, but guess what? That's what it's like in real life, and that's what it would be like in the mass effect universe. Ammo? Almost every enemy you run across drops thermal clips, and you find stashes of them before any main fight.



Story? It's still there, and it's just as good if not better than ME1. Just because theres more action thrown in doesn't mean the story is worse.



And ME2 in all accounts is LONGER than ME1.



Also, one final thing: I find it extremely silly that you all loved ME1 to death, hyped up ME2 like crazy, and then in the end decide "oh it's not good enough by my standards, I couldn't care less about the ME universe anymore and Shepard's story." Hypocrits much?

[chunkeeylovr53]

ME 2 isn't dumbed down per se, but the story kinda takes a back seat to the character development. still fun as hell though

[Sageless Ranger]

chunkeeylovr53 wrote...

ME 2 isn't dumbed down per se, but the story kinda takes a back seat to the character development. still fun as hell though

Depends on the characters, was disapointed i ashley, and was expecting alot more from liara, especially since she was my LI, but I guess it makes sense if you read the redemption comic, But Tali's character was simply amazing.

[Orogenic]

Genre?



Who cares about a label? My assessment of the game is purely empirical/ visceral: ME 1 developed an epic feeling as the game progressed which was very unique for many people.



While the mechanics of ME 2 may be superior, the game is completely lacking both that epic "feel" and any sense of continuation from the first game.



If you guys like ME 2, more power to you. I can tell you, however, that this thread provides and IMPORTANT service to people (like myself) that are very disappointed in the second game.



Those of you attacking us for having opinions that differ from your own are just making yourselves look foolish.



Read this again: We are HAPPY you like the game. Go enjoy it. Some of us don't like the game so much and want to make sure like-minded people think it over before they spend $60 on it. Fair enough?

[Archdemon Cthulhu]

Vioitty wrote...

The amount of arrogance in this thread is staggering; if people happen to like a genre outside of a 'pure RPG' they are stamped as 'attention decifit'. What? Just because you are enthusastic about a genre, doesn't make you a better person than those who take the RPG genre casually.

Last time I checked, the RPG genre wasn't a static one. If it were, we wouldn't have great games series such as Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy etc. All are great in their own ways. A roleplaying game at the heart of it, is to experience a character and their story, which Mass Effect achieves through Shepard and the interaction with the universe, hence the RPG tag it gets. It also has a third person shooter mechanic for it's combat system, hence why the action-RPG / shooter-rpg tag exists for the game. If you play mass effect with the expectation of a story equivilant to a pen and paper rpg, then you deserve to be dissapointed.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to not like the game, quite to the contary if a genre (or sub-genre) isn't to your liking, then that is your taste. However, to blast those who DO like the game (and given the medium score for this game, quite a few people like it) as somehow lacking in intelligence, or being pawns to capitalism (seriously?) is very unfair and condescending. t

As for me personally, I've been trying to puzzle out the claims that Mass Effect 1 was a superior game, yet i just can't figure it out. The inventory system is clunky, the side quests are very linear and I grew tired of the 'collect 20 of 10 different things!!!' quests. I find the storyline in Mass Effect 2 a lot more streamlined, and the little bits and bobs (such as hacking, researching upgrades) a lot more original, exciting and easier on the player. I find Mass Effect 2 to be a refreshing experience and I am throughly enjoying the game.

Maybe it's because I play FPS, TPS, J-RPGS, W-RPGS, platformers etc, and can enjoy different takes on a game more than those who stick to one type of genre (or who dont like change). Maybe not. But I'm not of the opinion that people who don't like the game are somehow idiots, or 'non-bioware fans'. That would be silly.

This person wins the thread.  

[Sageless Ranger]

Orogenic wrote...

Genre?

Who cares about a label? My assessment of the game is purely empirical/ visceral: ME 1 developed an epic feeling as the game progressed which was very unique for many people.

While the mechanics of ME 2 may be superior, the game is completely lacking both that epic "feel" and any sense of continuation from the first game.

If you guys like ME 2, more power to you. I can tell you, however, that this thread provides and IMPORTANT service to people (like myself) that are very disappointed in the second game.

Those of you attacking us for having opinions that differ from your own are just making yourselves look foolish.

Read this again: We are HAPPY you like the game. Go enjoy it. Some of us don't like the game so much and want to make sure like-minded people think it over before they spend $60 on it. Fair enough?

There's no problem that you don't like it, would quesiton how much you have played it as I thought the same as you at first, but you can't say that there is no continuation from the first, But I had the same feeling of lack of epicness myself, well at least at first, havn't finished it yet, but it does continue to get more epic.

[Sageless Ranger]

cyanrabbit wrote...

Same here,
I enjoy ME2 but still feel sour of being lured by the "#2". This is definitely not what I expected and was sold... I can also enjoy shooter, but I was not looking for one here.. my loss, as people say..

Many people complain and get flamed here, by the new Fboys, the same one with slight ADD who fall asleep if the action is fast paced enough.... understand that their loyalty is the same as their attention span, rather short..

Please BW, do not forget us, fans of old, the one who already gave you 100s of dollars since the mid 90s, we are your backbone. You might enjoy getting fat with new customers, but without us, you will crumble in the long run, get EA to understand that, for the love of the video game development art!!

WE have always been your prescriptors, from now on (and well, let s admit it should have been since 2004-5), you are just becoming a company like so many others, and sadly most of those have quiet short life spans... That makes me feel deeply sad..

Not a rant, just feeling like if an old childhood friend decided to open clandestine sweat shops to provide for its business, because after all, you know, so many do it, and it brings back so much cash...

So now because i like shooters I have ADD eh? I'll have you know that I played Kotor at least 5-6 times, ME1 7 times, The third age, which isnt made by bioware but is a strictly turned based game, 5 times, and guess what I got bored with the fastest? MW2, thats right Im a fan of shooters, but story matters to me much more. 

[Coughee Brotha]

Im a little (stress a little) disappointed by the lack of rpg elements (inventory, depth of skill branching. But this is still one of the greatest games I have played. BUt people a lot of this stuff you asked to have changed and with open hearts Bioware did it. They even went in and added NG+ last minute because so many people wanted it. So even if this wasnt exactly the game you were expecting( though I believe the majority of people still call it a great game) at least be considerate and appreciative that bioware took the time to listen and cater to us as fans. Everyone is not going to like it but it goes against logic that someone can can please everyone

[Orogenic]

Archdemon Cthulhu wrote...

Vioitty wrote...

The amount of arrogance in this thread is staggering; if people happen to like a genre outside of a 'pure RPG' they are stamped as 'attention decifit'. What? Just because you are enthusastic about a genre, doesn't make you a better person than those who take the RPG genre casually.

Last time I checked, the RPG genre wasn't a static one. If it were, we wouldn't have great games series such as Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy etc. All are great in their own ways. A roleplaying game at the heart of it, is to experience a character and their story, which Mass Effect achieves through Shepard and the interaction with the universe, hence the RPG tag it gets. It also has a third person shooter mechanic for it's combat system, hence why the action-RPG / shooter-rpg tag exists for the game. If you play mass effect with the expectation of a story equivilant to a pen and paper rpg, then you deserve to be dissapointed.

I'm not saying that it's wrong to not like the game, quite to the contary if a genre (or sub-genre) isn't to your liking, then that is your taste. However, to blast those who DO like the game (and given the medium score for this game, quite a few people like it) as somehow lacking in intelligence, or being pawns to capitalism (seriously?) is very unfair and condescending. t

As for me personally, I've been trying to puzzle out the claims that Mass Effect 1 was a superior game, yet i just can't figure it out. The inventory system is clunky, the side quests are very linear and I grew tired of the 'collect 20 of 10 different things!!!' quests. I find the storyline in Mass Effect 2 a lot more streamlined, and the little bits and bobs (such as hacking, researching upgrades) a lot more original, exciting and easier on the player. I find Mass Effect 2 to be a refreshing experience and I am throughly enjoying the game.

Maybe it's because I play FPS, TPS, J-RPGS, W-RPGS, platformers etc, and can enjoy different takes on a game more than those who stick to one type of genre (or who dont like change). Maybe not. But I'm not of the opinion that people who don't like the game are somehow idiots, or 'non-bioware fans'. That would be silly.

This person wins the thread.  

He wins the thread just because he shares your opinion?  Seriously, who is being arrogant here?

Far beyond the trivial discussion of whether or not this game is good or bad, I worry about the inability of so many people posting here to understand and accept that there are valid points of view out there other than your own.

For you the game is improved.

For us the game is worse.

This is a matter of opinion, and neither side is more "correct" than the other.

[Gaddmeister]

Dadriell wrote...

Well, true RPG's are already dead for a quite some time and Bioware just made a next logical step. They almost got rid of inventory and experience points, so i guess that ME3 is just going to be a TPS with a small variety of skills and specializations.
It's a sad thing, but at least the game is still interesting.

What you mean by saying that they almost got rid of experience points? You still level up, don't you? Do you have the fewer skills in mind?

[Gatt9]

Vioitty wrote...
Last time I checked, the RPG genre wasn't a static one. If it were, we wouldn't have great games series such as Fallout, Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy etc. All are great in their own ways. A roleplaying game at the heart of it, is to experience a character and their story, which Mass Effect achieves through Shepard and the interaction with the universe, hence the RPG tag it gets. It also has a third person shooter mechanic for it's combat system, hence why the action-RPG / shooter-rpg tag exists for the game. If you play mass effect with the expectation of a story equivilant to a pen and paper rpg, then you deserve to be dissapointed.

You should probably reflect a bit on this paragraph,  it'll make it very clear why ME2 is not an RPG as it should've been,  and as it was billed.

A roleplaying game at the heart of it, is to experience a character and their story, which Mass Effect achieves through Shepard and the interaction with the universe, hence the RPG tag it gets.

Here's the problem.  You can't experience a character if everything is dependent on your personal skills.  To experience a character,  you have to be dependent on the character's skills.  I'm pretty confident no one on here has any idea how to aim or launch a mass-driver powered assault rifle,  so to experience the character,  no one on here should be able to shoot a single gun in the game.  Which is why an RPG is Character Skill dependent.

ME2 is Player Skill dependent,  all of those little skills are pretty much completely redundant.  All that matters is your ability to aim the controller/mouse.  This makes Shepard not a Character,  but an Avatar.  Even his paragon/renegade abilities aren't a matter of the Character,  they're a matter of you're ability to pull a trigger.  Nothing in the game is dependent on the Character.

So in short,  this game is the diametric opposite of an RPG.  It quite literally takes every single thing that constitutes an RPG,  and does the exact opposite.  Which is why I have said,  and will continue to say,  there's a bunch of people on here who claim they're RPGPlayers,  but actually hate RPGs,  they just like to have little numbers on the corner of some screen to tell them they're progressing.

Dirty little industry secret:  Ever since Final Fantasy 7,  the industry thinks you'll buy the game because it has the letters RPG on the box.  So they'll put the letters on every box,  and a little screen with a level number somewhere,  and tell you you're playing an RPG.  You aren't.  An RPG has a finite description,  because RPG is a system,  and as such can be clearly classified.  It has qualities that define and differentiate it,  one of those is Character Based Skill.  Just like a Truck is not a Car.  An FPS is not an RPG,  because the FPS is by definition Player Based Skill and an RPG is by definition Character Based Skill,  and having a little screen that says "You're level 12!" doesn't make it an RPG.

People really need to contemplate the meaning of the word "Role",  it is,  by definition,  not you.  It is someone else that you are pretending to be,  and hence,  is not about your abilities.

Edit:  Because apparently the board software has issues with opening and closing tags,  redone with bold.

Modifié par Gatt9, 30 janvier 2010 - 10:16 .

[Gaddmeister]

Gatt9 wrote...

Here's the problem.  You can't experience a character if everything is dependent on your personal skills.  To experience a character,  you have to be dependent on the character's skills.  I'm pretty confident no one on here has any idea how to aim or launch a mass-driver powered assault rifle,  so to experience the character,  no one on here should be able to shoot a single gun in the game.  Which is why an RPG is Character Skill dependent.

ME2 is Player Skill dependent,  all of those little skills are pretty much completely redundant.  All that matters is your ability to aim the controller/mouse.  This makes Shepard not a Character,  but an Avatar.  Even his paragon/renegade abilities aren't a matter of the Character,  they're a matter of you're ability to pull a trigger.  Nothing in the game is dependent on the Character.

So in short,  this game is the diametric opposite of an RPG.  It quite literally takes every single thing that constitutes an RPG,  and does the exact opposite.  Which is why I have said,  and will continue to say,  there's a bunch of people on here who claim they're RPGPlayers,  but actually hate RPGs,  they just like to have little numbers on the corner of some screen to tell them they're progressing.

But you still had to aim with the mouse or gamepad in the first game as well. Ok, you could level up skill points for aiming, but in reality this was rather stupid. Shepard is not some noob like you start out with in most rpgs. Shepard was already an elite N7 marine, who should already be able to aim correctly. So not having aim stats in ME2 is nothing that really bothers me or breaks my immersion.

[Bluemax151]

UHitMeInTheEar wrote...
Hey remember when Mario 2 came out and they changed everything and you were like pulling turnups out of the ground. I bet Nintendo was glad message boards didn't exist back then.

Incidentally Super Mario 2 (NA) was never intended to be a Mario title originally. It was actually another title named Doki Doki Panic. The actual JPN Mario 2 was considered too hard and so a "dumbed down" Mario 2 was released in NA using Mario charcters but in the Doki Doki panic game.

Not my favourite Mario title but I did enjoy the character options and varying abilities.

In a strange way you could say the progress from ME1 to 2 has some similarites..

[AudioJane]

Long time Forum reader first time responder, I just want to throw my Two cents in.

I can understand RPG players frustration with this installement of Mass Effect. I too found myself saying WTF a couple times. But despite Mass Effect 2 lacking alot of RPG elements that I like; It is a very solid game. I will now list the good and the bad based on my opinion.

First the good of course:

1. Combat: Is way better, My heart actually thumps in my chest now. And death is actually a real fear, I can count on one hand how many times I died in Mass Effect 1

2. Graphics: The game runs and looks so much better.

3. Streamlined skills and ability's : Lets face it some of the skills in Mass Effect 1 were completely worthless. The really good skills are easily mapped now on the 360 controller and you don't have to pause all the time to switch. 
(Although) This is a double edged sword.......Will explain in the bad section.

4. Custom Armor for Shep: Way cool.

5.Awsome top tier Weapons: You gotta agree that 12 round mag Sniper Rifle is just So NASTY I love firing that thing. It's like a Barret 50.on steriods.

6. Overall Story is still good....not epic but good.

7.Last but not least the Normandy: Freaking awsome ship.

Well now the bad.

1. Ammo : It doesn't really do much in my mind. it's about the same as cooldown. If anything it just annoys us on low mag count weapons like shotguns and entry level snipers.

2. Not enough weapons: The weapons scene except for heavy and AR's is pretty barren. More weapons please.

3. Lack of inventory. I like shuffling through inventory but that is just me.

4. Zero Exploration: The Mako was cool man felt like I was an Explorer. Now I am just a Hired gun. (Hoping DLC fixes this)

5. Probe Fest: Worst Idea ever,Bioware come on baby!

6. Lack of Armor's : They gave us a cool armor changer with zero armor to change.

7.Not enough Ability's and Skills: Now again double edge sword on this one, I understand they paried it down to streamline. But lets get a little more choice please, I mean really Ammo as an ability?  (That promted a WTF moment)

Overall I am happy with Mass Effect 2, And I look forward to Mass Effect 3 with some changes to put some RPG back in the game.

Modifié par AudioJane, 30 janvier 2010 - 11:52 .

[General Karthos]

Orogenic wrote...

I find myself a lot less irate after looking at the "age of the board" thread. When I realized that 90% of the people praising the "new and improved" ME 2 are between the ages of 15-20 I find myself a lot less inclined to be angry. Hell, at that age I probably would have taken explosions over substance as well. And who is a game developer going to cater to? Old farts that play a couple games a year in between bouts of wife aggro? Or young single dudes most likely to spend their paychecks on plasma screens, videogames, and beer?

I am heartbroken that the epic storyline of ME 1 is dead, but hey.. at least they hit one out of the park with that game.

When I was between the ages of 15-20, I found that attitude about that age group extremely frustrating. I've been 22 now for just under four hours, so I'm still fairly young but I have never been one of those who prefers explosions over substance, and the assumption of people your age (whatever your age is) that my age group was... well, pretty much worthless... always seemed baseless and mean-spirited. I never got the "hating on the younger generation" thing. Maybe when I'm older, I'll hate on the younger generation as well, just the way the generation above you thought -your- generation was worthless. Those damn kids with their hair, and their music....

Look, my point is, it's frustrating to have it assumed that because I'm young I can't keep my attention on something, and it's insulting to assume that because I'm young, my viewpoint isn't valid. And it might be a good idea to think twice before you make blanket statements about an age group. Just sayin'.