42 réponses à ce sujet

[MeesterJojo]

Ok, I've already found 4 legitimate bugs and sent reports to EA/BioWare (2 of them end the game- meaning, specific scripted actions don't occur, yet you have free movement, so you're in limbo. Revolves around EDI/timed mission segments). Anyway I've also had a post regarding Renegade points not showing up.

Now I've almost maxed Paragon, but how I'm getting renegade points just makes no sense. I'd like think that there's some confused/half-thought(or half-witted) reasoning behind why we get Renegade points for things.

Cure the plague: Paragon, but if you took ANY medkits: +2 Renegade points per medkit taken after starting the mission for the cute, with +1 Renegade point which no one can figure out except to guess that it has something to do with earning equal Renegade with Paragon due to background. Sigh- that's not right either.

Recruit and finish Samara's mission: +5 Renegade points, +7 Paragon. I replayed the scenario a number of times to try each option, and no matter what you pick when going to the Detective and Samra you will always get renegade points- even if you skip dialog which seems questionable. Where's the logic? Is it because we had ZERO option that money was forced upon us (this theory has some merit- notice anytime you get a cash reward for doing good, watch and see if you get renegade points)? Is it because of whom I had in my squad?

it makes no sense, and really- it needs to.

Do everything right, be holier than holy= Renegade points.

I'm sure BioWare's ultimate excuse is that "we're trying to illustrate how difficult it is to stay on the 'right' and positive path", but honestly- arbitrarily tossing around Renegade points without reason is just insanely frustrating.

Choose no renegade dialog, only positive blue text: get renegade points.

Even worse: sometimes you don't even get a notification that you've gotten them. On the above example with Mordin and the Cure I replayed the ENTIRE slum level 3 times, and even more times just the final battle agains the vorcha (post- saving the medical assistant: which you get Paragon points for, and no renegade, and is also your LAST save point till mission complete). All you do is kill Vorcha. I didn't receive the notification 4 times that I played through (3 complete sub-level and 5 or so end-mission). Worse: How does killing Vorcha that you have to kill constitute a Renegade action considering they're hell bent on killing everyone there?

Makes no sense. People will apologize and make excuses for it, but there are none- there's no philosophical bent except some extremist religious doctrine to explain any Renegade point gains for doing positive actions.

If the excuse (I won't say reason, because it's not a reason, it's an excuse, and a limiting factor) is the above mentioned infusion of reality/trying to make it difficult to be good, well, that's just lame. There were a myriad of options to pull that off successfully which were never explored. If taking medkits is a crime (and apparently it is now) that's just stupid. Killing Vorcha who try to kill you and an entire space station then awarding renegade points? Stupidity.

Here's another classic example: to get Samara you have to go through the Eclipse warehouses. You'll stumble on a PDA which shows someone is having his goods stolen. If you send a note to the rightful owner of the stolen goods, then come back to Illium you get +5 Renegade points, even if you don't engage in renegade dialog options. The reason? Heck if I know. You do get a cash reward, and that may be the reason (BioWare's thinking being that accepting money for a good deed is bad. This also happens from the Detective on Illium), however, we have ZERO option to NOT accept the reward, thus BioWare is forcing us to accept Renegade points, rather than giving us the option to just do a good deed with no reward required as we used to.

Lame lame lame

Ok syccophants, have at me.

[Chrisimo79]

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.

Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

[RK5]

Theres lots of potential reasons. Samara and the vorcha thing im not sure about, it could be many things, i'd have to replay them to find morally questionable interpretations of specific actions,



but im pretty sure helping that 'someone' recover lost merchandise is not a morally good decision, seeing as how its obvious you're helping a known criminal, i'm pretty sure there were clues to tell you he wasnt a good guy. Turning a blind eye will get you neither paragon nor renegade points as far as i know, which is how it should be.

[RK5]

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.
Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

But it isnt a choice.  I wish there were an options to just end up killing yourself in the beginning of the game so the paragon nerds would stfu already (no offense meant, OP).  Wanna go full paragon?  there's your gun, you prove your point to cerberus that you dont want to be used as a tool to further their agenda, go ahead.

[Chrisimo79]

Killing yourself would be a renegade choice as well.

[Massadonious1]

What I gathered from the conversation you have with the Krogan, (in regards to the PDA thing) is that his boss is a crime/merc lord or some such, and the supplies listed on the PDA are illegal drugs, weapons or whatnot.



It doesn't make much sense because talking to him seems to be the only way to resolve the quest, but I hope that explanation helps.

[...mortaL]

mhm.. the asari by the cabs talks about the stolen goods but i didn´t get a chance to warn her or do anything about it.. just got the usual "i´m on a call right now" response.. like the salarian before you find the data in nassanas (sp?) tower..



but i just forwared the data.. maybe i shouldn´t have ? just read it and go back to the asari ? but still ..helping someone steal goods ? however illegal seemed to be the renegade choice

[MeesterJojo]

RK5 wrote...

Theres lots of potential reasons. Samara and the vorcha thing im not sure about, it could be many things, i'd have to replay them to find morally questionable interpretations of specific actions,

but im pretty sure helping that 'someone' recover lost merchandise is not a morally good decision, seeing as how its obvious you're helping a known criminal, i'm pretty sure there were clues to tell you he wasnt a good guy. Turning a blind eye will get you neither paragon nor renegade points as far as i know, which is how it should be.

It doesn't give any evidence that Mr. Thrax is a criminal.

[MeesterJojo]

Massadonious1 wrote...

What I gathered from the conversation you have with the Krogan, (in regards to the PDA thing) is that his boss is a crime/merc lord or some such, and the supplies listed on the PDA are illegal drugs, weapons or whatnot.

It doesn't make much sense because talking to him seems to be the only way to resolve the quest, but I hope that explanation helps.

You're reading too much into it, and regardless, it's 1 incident.

[MeesterJojo]

...mortaL wrote...

mhm.. the asari by the cabs talks about the stolen goods but i didn´t get a chance to warn her or do anything about it.. just got the usual "i´m on a call right now" response.. like the salarian before you find the data in nassanas (sp?) tower..

but i just forwared the data.. maybe i shouldn´t have ? just read it and go back to the asari ? but still ..helping someone steal goods ? however illegal seemed to be the renegade choice

You're confusing 2 different mini-quests.

[MeesterJojo]

RK5 wrote...

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.
Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

But it isnt a choice.  I wish there were an options to just end up killing yourself in the beginning of the game so the paragon nerds would stfu already (no offense meant, OP).  Wanna go full paragon?  there's your gun, you prove your point to cerberus that you dont want to be used as a tool to further their agenda, go ahead.

None taken.

ya I wanna go full paragon, but I don't mind (not ONE bit) having renegade points added IF it can be properly explained in some context.

That Liara, and if like me she was your romance interest in the first Mass Effect- I did everything to help her, but still came out +5 renegade after all her missions, with +2 paragon. Can't complain. I knew the score. There was no deep-digging required for me to associate the Renegade points I received with her missions. They were obviously questionable, and not the stuff of Paragons.

You agree with work *with*, not *for* Cerebus as the means to an end. This is something every one I know does on a daily basis- you work in a system we don't agree with, but we're not bad and degenerate people. Ever hear the saying "you don't have to like the people you work with, but you have to work" or one of the many variations on that? It's a cliche, and it rings true here. Does that mean I'm a ruthless individual who'll chew you out and take short cuts in real life just because I don't agree with what the company I work for does? No. It just means I have a job, I need a living, and I am not my job.

I think it must be a bug, or BioWare's view of morality in ME2 is an afterthought (like the 360 version)

They're trying, I suspect, to make morality less of a black-and-white issue in ME2, and failing hard. Punishment (as a paragon sees Renegade points) without understanding is like beating a dog for peeing on your floor after leaving it inside while you were at work- it doesn't know it did anything bad, and the incident is in the past.

BioWare could've thought grey-areas out better.

Other than the Mr. Thrax stolen goods shipment on Illium, can anyone find the reason for renegade points in the other examples? Also, how a paragon sees the Mr. Thrax episode "Oh look I'm in a warehouse and it appears these mercs were arranging to have his goods stolen, I think I'll let Mr. Thrax know where his stolen goods are so that he may claim them".

No game has done morality better than Planescape:Torment, which of course was from the genius minds at Black Isle (BioWare knows Black Isle, heh, since BI was using BioWare's engine). BioWare feels they can cut corners (this is my opinion) either due to financial constraints, or they feel that their customer demographic can't sit still for something more...immersive like PS:T was.

Sad

Modifié par MeesterJojo, 29 janvier 2010 - 10:21 .

[xMister Vx]

I posted a thread on this on the first day the game was released... I also don't mind them if they would explain them a little. And I must say that sometimes I deliberately went with Renegade dialogue (Mordin Solus' mission). My sincere belief is that Paragon does NOT equal Paladin (read: Lawful Stupid) - it may explain why they're adding those points, just so it feels a little more... in-between. But some are not explained enough, they just feel very random.



For instance, once I got +5 Renegade in Archangel's base before heading to the basement. I didn't even have dialogue then.

Also +5 Paragon and +5 Renegade for talking to Kelly and inviting her to dinner (was that a crucial moral decision?!).

[NKato]

I'm in agreement. The whole constant adding bits and pieces of Renegade points without any logic behind them is indicative that Bioware is starting to lose some semblance of common sense. In other posts I've made in the past commenting on their gameplay decisions, as well as other game design decisions, I am under the impression that someone in the company has had one lobotomy too many.

Modifié par NKato, 29 janvier 2010 - 10:33 .

[MrBiggens]

does it really matter? its not like KotoR where getting dark side points counteracts light side. you have 2 seperate bars for here. if your already 100% paragon, getting renegade does nothing except give you renegade. you dont get less paragon (aka light side) as you did in KotoR's. like i dont understand why its such a huge ****ing deal to get a few renegade points. i max'd out my paragon like halfway through the main missions, and i just ended up doing renegade when i could and got 2 bars of renegade by the end of the game.



lolol like if your that OCD that you cant have any renegade when your going for paragon, you have bigger problems lawl.

[talon4000]

I found a number of times I would seemingly randomly get renegade points, guessing that the next time I play I'll find myself randomly getting renegade points

[MeesterJojo]

MrBiggens wrote...

does it really matter? its not like KotoR where getting dark side points counteracts light side. you have 2 seperate bars for here. if your already 100% paragon, getting renegade does nothing except give you renegade. you dont get less paragon (aka light side) as you did in KotoR's. like i dont understand why its such a huge ****ing deal to get a few renegade points. i max'd out my paragon like halfway through the main missions, and i just ended up doing renegade when i could and got 2 bars of renegade by the end of the game.

lolol like if your that OCD that you cant have any renegade when your going for paragon, you have bigger problems lawl.

For many people there is enjoyment in completion, and in 'perfect' stats. This has always been the case, and drives such achievements which reward these things.

Also, you may wish to stop starting sentences with "like". It denotes age/inexperience.

The point isn't getting renegade, if you had read. The point is getting renegade points for no logical reason. Choose Paragon/Positive dialog- Renegade points. Cure a Plague- Renegade Points. Getting Legion gives no Renegade points, but helping Grunt kill the Thresher Maw is +5 Renegade Points. Find a mans stolen goods and tell him where to get his legal property- Renegade points. Take a medkit- +2 Renegade points per medkit during 1 mission.

And it goes on and on.

I, too, have maxed out my paragon, but have just under 1/2 a bar of Renegade.

I accepted, willingly, Renegade points for helping Liara. Again- it's not a point of HAVING renegade points, it WHY the heck are they giving them to us, AND an issue of them not always/consistantly being reported.

Given the number of legitimate bugs in the game (some of which are game stopping) it wouldn't surprise me if this is another bug.

[Schneidend]

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.
Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

Bolded for just being plain wrong. Renegades don't simply "not care" about these things. Their values and principles are just different.

[DirkD13]

I agree the handout of random points is sloppy, but in terms of game mechanics is meaningless. This would be a much bigger issue if the points counterbalanced each other like in KOTOR. At this point your 'perfect' game would be to minimize your Reg points since 0 is unattainable.

[MeesterJojo]

DirkD13 wrote...

I agree the handout of random points is sloppy, but in terms of game mechanics is meaningless. This would be a much bigger issue if the points counterbalanced each other like in KOTOR. At this point your 'perfect' game would be to minimize your Reg points since 0 is unattainable.

The question is will the amount/degree of Renegade affect ME3? So far all of my Paragon actions in ME1 has paid off royally in ME2.

And as for game mechanics- sure, but it affects plot in big ways, and that in turn will affect your game over all and possibly ME3 in some big way. The affects of dialog cannot be understated- Will the fact I chose to support Tali after her trial over making an anti-war statement going to send the Quarians into a war with the Geth in ME3 when we could count on them to join us in battle against the Reapers? Who knows, but because I didn't they were all discussing "The War".

Dialog- it's just that important.

Right now I'm refocusing my attentions to my other thread regarding a game-stopping/breaking scripting error: BioWare didn't fully test (apparently) the script instances with EDI making a 'timed' response during a mission. 2 of these. Anyway, I've found a way to reproduce the script bug (it revolves around who is in your party) on other consoles. So far there has been no response from BioWare or EA (I've emailed and have an open question on EA's support site), but it is game-breaking as it will end your game early, or at the very least sour your ME2 experience as you have to replay a heavy combat section (though I really like the combat, and wish they had more variety).

[MeesterJojo]

Schneidend wrote...

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.
Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

Bolded for just being plain wrong. Renegades don't simply "not care" about these things. Their values and principles are just different.

You point out the complexity of having an in-game morality system. I think that's what BioWare's problem was, and my theory is in the end they opted to just say "f* it" and make rigid morality flags which don't make sense to anyone but them.

Someone had to justify the morality system in probably more than 1 meeting. This person(s) had to convince others that the way they were doing it was correct. I'm wondering if everyone else understood just how spaced-out/out-of-whack it would be? heh

[agrue]

After the first game, they decided that the P/R morality system was too polarized. In ME2, while they didn't come up with a new system, they decided to hand out opposite points for no apparent reason in order to obscure the fact that it's still relatively polarized.



At least in ME2, most of the Renegade options don't outright involve torturing puppies belonging to a sick orphan.

[vometia]

This new points system is becoming very irritating now. I've just finished the mission to check out the Collector vessel and yet again have received +5 renegade with no explanation. I wouldn't mind if it gave me an some idea /why/ I received those points, but if it's just going to say "you did something questionable but I'm not telling you what", what's the point of having a morality system at all?

This is I think the fourth time I've received renegade points without any explanation. Whether or not I want my character to keep a clean slate (which I do) is immaterial: if I'm going to go down the renegade route at all, I'd like to at least have some idea why, and some control over it. Random and sometimes unpredictable reactions on a personal level as in Dragon Age is fair enough (especially as it tells you at the time) but when implemented as a sort of universal morality without any guidelines, it makes no sense whatsoever.

Of course it may just be a bug, in which case a fix would be nice.

Modifié par vometia, 02 février 2010 - 04:19 .

[Chrisimo79]

Schneidend wrote...

Chrisimo79 wrote...

Well, considerung that you are working for an organization like Cerberus and work with a lot of people who can be considered criminals, I think it would be stupid if you could get through the game without any renegade points. Renegade means doing what you have to do in order to get the mission done and not caring about princriples and upholding values.
Your agreement to work with Cerberus is a renegade action in itself.

Bolded for just being plain wrong. Renegades don't simply "not care" about these things. Their values and principles are just different.

Ok, they may have principles and values, but they are prepared to ignore them if need be.

Modifié par Chrisimo79, 02 février 2010 - 04:26 .

[MrGOH]

I had a similar issue playing as a renegade Shepard - the random award of Paragon points. Usually I chalked it up to the fact that my Shep actually ended up helping someone or completing a quest even though my Shep was a complete jerk about how she went about it. Lots of +2 Paragon then +9 Renegade popups in my playthrough.

[boardnfool86]

Who cares? Why are you avoiding renegade? I find it frustrating that you can't walk the line between the two and have everyone's loyalty.