42 réponses à ce sujet

[NeonMeat]

boardnfool86 wrote...

Who cares? Why are you avoiding renegade? I find it frustrating that you can't walk the line between the two and have everyone's loyalty.

The point is in an RPG you want to control what the player does, you can't control the situations you find yourself in, but you should ALWAYS be able to control HOW you deal with those situations.

My first playthrough was using an imported ME1 save, and that character very much walks the line between paragon/renegade, but on my second walkthrough i was hoping to play 100% paragon. It's very disappointing to not be abvle to do that.

If there is a system of good and evil, it should be consistent, or simply remove it altogether. Otherwise just have the players actions be what they are with no numerical tracking system. 

[glacier1701]

 The issuing of renegade points for a 'paragon' choice only makes sense in the context of what was said by BioWare developers back at around the time of E3 last year. What they alluded to was that a paragon act, while paragon in the short term, could have long term renegade effects. That would appear to be their justification for the awarding of renegade points. It would have made more sense if they explained WHY within the award but that does not happen. The best example of a paragon act having a possible long term renegade effect within ME2 is the Samara recruiting mission. Basically when you run into Elnora(sp?) she says she is new, that she didnt shoot etc etc. The paragon choice is to let her go. Only later on do you find out she is a murderer and now she is loose with the potential to kill again. That is the type of thing that I believe that BioWare wanted to get across but just awarding renegade points without explanation is how we see it most times as if they forgot to put that part in.

 

[SirDerb]

I've replayed through recruiting 'Archangel' five times now, each time after I've completed the whole mission I find I have Renegade points. None before, no announcements of receiving them, no sign of these points in mission, no sabotaging of the mercs' mech or gunship. They are just simply there after the mission.

My Paragon Only Shepard from ME1 does not approve, and I'm tired and irritated.

[SirDerb]

Sixth try.. didn't take anything from the mercs. Medkits, upgrades, datapads.. no hacking mechs or killing at the gunship.. still have the phantom Renegade points showing up on my squad screen afterward.

[stillnotking]

SirDerb wrote...

I've replayed through recruiting 'Archangel' five times now, each time after I've completed the whole mission I find I have Renegade points. None before, no announcements of receiving them, no sign of these points in mission, no sabotaging of the mercs' mech or gunship. They are just simply there after the mission.
My Paragon Only Shepard from ME1 does not approve, and I'm tired and irritated.

I'd say signing up for a merc band under false pretenses to help their target escape is a Renegade action in itself.

It is not possible to play through the game and get either 0 Paragon or 0 Renegade points.  If it bothers you so much to get points in the one you're not deliberately trying to max then you probably won't enjoy this game.

Modifié par stillnotking, 05 février 2010 - 06:37 .

[tmp7704]

SirDerb wrote...

Sixth try.. didn't take anything from the mercs. Medkits, upgrades, datapads.. no hacking mechs or killing at the gunship.. still have the phantom Renegade points showing up on my squad screen afterward.

Perhaps these points are given for shooting people on the bridge -- the ones in the beginning before you get to Archangel; people who you know just signed up in hope to make a bit of cash and aren't actually part of the mercenary group.

[vometia]

tmp7704 wrote...

Perhaps these points are given for shooting people on the bridge -- the ones in the beginning before you get to Archangel; people who you know just signed up in hope to make a bit of cash and aren't actually part of the mercenary group.

I think this is the key issue: we don't know and we're having to guess which decision may or may not have caused it.  For me, this isn't what an RPG is about; you should be able to link decisions to their consequences rather than be left wondering what it is you might've done, if anything.

[SirDerb]

tmp7704 wrote...
Perhaps these points are given for shooting people on the bridge -- the ones in the beginning before you get to Archangel; people who you know just signed up in hope to make a bit of cash and aren't actually part of the mercenary group.

No, tried that too. Not shooting them and walking all the way in you just get to watch the door cutting team keep trying to get in while a continuous stream of freelancer keeps walking into the building for Archangel to shoot.
Edit: Hm, didn't try doing that and only shooting the door team, guess I have something to try for a seventh run.

Modifié par SirDerb, 05 février 2010 - 03:16 .

[PatrickBatemanV]

I do find the renegade/paragon thing a bit annoying, as I don't play the game that way. Whether it's shooting a bad guy preemptively while he's making a speech and getting renegade points, or comforting someone who's grieving and getting paragon points, it doesn't seem like those things are mutually exclusive. Punishing the wicked and comforting the innocent seems more well rounded to me.

[SirDerb]

stillnotking wrote...
I'd say signing up for a merc band under false pretenses to help their target escape is a Renegade action in itself.

It is not possible to play through the game and get either 0 Paragon or 0 Renegade points.  If it bothers you so much to get points in the one you're not deliberately trying to max then you probably won't enjoy this game.

I've enjoyed the game fine, and without getting Renegade points, it's just a colossal pain that I can't pick up my old friend without phantom Renegade points appearing unannounced, without a sign as to where the hell they are coming from. vometia has it right, we shouldn't be left guessing this hard.

[SirDerb]

PatrickBatemanV wrote...

I do find the renegade/paragon thing a bit annoying, as I don't play the game that way. Whether it's shooting a bad guy preemptively while he's making a speech and getting renegade points, or comforting someone who's grieving and getting paragon points, it doesn't seem like those things are mutually exclusive. Punishing the wicked and comforting the innocent seems more well rounded to me.

I do both, been trying to run through the same as with ME1, Jim Shepard the Earth-Born War Hero Pargon of Pargoness going through for my first play through, then Joan Shepard the Ruthless Sole-Survivor Get the Job Done Paragon/Renegade Be Damned on the second.

[halO bendeR]

The issue the op mentions in one of my biggest gripes with the game as well. I went through ME1 accumulating as few renegade points as possible. For whatever reason, by the time I was done my ME2 playthrough I had my renegade bar 3/4 of the way to the first renegade 'milestone' despite never picking the renegade choices.

This is on top of some fairly inconsistent morality stances. For example, when completing Legion's loyalty mission the first paragon option is to say 'brainwashing an entire species is unethical' but when you're actually forced to make a decision the paragon option is to unleash the virus. So yeah, a bit confusing.

I know Bioware hasn't really been commenting in the spoiler section of the boards, but I'd love to hear what a developer has to say on the matter. If it was a mistake, hopefully it'll be something they patch up at some point.

Modifié par halO bendeR, 05 février 2010 - 04:12 .

[Gill Kaiser]

I don't get it. You getting, in essence 'free' Renegade points is a good thing, because it gives you more conversation options in the future. Even if you're resolutely Paragon, sometimes it's nice to at least have the OPTION of choosing an Intimidate response, if only for roleplaying value.

IMO you're crossing the line into Lawful Stupid right now.

[halO bendeR]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

I don't get it. You getting, in essence 'free' Renegade points is a good thing, because it gives you more conversation options in the future. Even if you're resolutely Paragon, sometimes it's nice to at least have the OPTION of choosing an Intimidate response, if only for roleplaying value.
IMO you're crossing the line into Lawful Stupid right now.

What's not to get?
The way I --and I assume some others-- have chosen to play is as a Champion of Justice/Good/Whathaveyou. When I see that I got Renegade points during a mission I feel like I somehow took the wrong action.
In ME1 for example, I was the type of person who replayed the Zew's Hope mission a few times to ensure I had a zero casualty rate.
That's the way I've chosen to play the game --at least on my main playthrough. You don't have to 'get it', just understand that some people want the option.

[Heavensrun]

Paragon and renegade points are no longer exclusively an indicator of your behavior. They also represent your ability to charm or intimidate. There are paragon/renegade points for reaching certain benchmark points in the game, from what I've seen. You reach a certain level, get to a certain point in the story, invest in a certain skill, etc, and you get -and- renegade points because you don't have charm/intimidate skill options anymore.



This is probably part of what's going on here. People are getting renegade points because they levelled, or reached a certain point in the overall story, and they're associating those points with their actions.



It is also possible that some dialogue/actions are considered more "grey area", and since your options late in the game depend on your paragon/renegade values, for gameplay reasons, it's in bioware's interest to give out points pretty liberally.

[BinJuice82]

Life is never simply 'black and white' or 'Paragon and Renegade'.

That is reflected in ME2.

[SirDerb]

BinJuice82 wrote...

Life is never simply 'black and white' or 'Paragon and Renegade'.
That is reflected in ME2.

No, that is reflected in Dragon Age.

[coinop25]

halO bendeR wrote...

The way I --and I assume some others-- have chosen to play is as a Champion of Justice/Good/Whathaveyou. When I see that I got Renegade points during a mission I feel like I somehow took the wrong action.

This mentality is understandable, given how the Charm/Intimidate and Paragon/Renegade system worked in ME1. In ME2, however, they are just much more liberal with Paragon/Renegade points because (i infer) you can't put your squad points into conversation. Think of it not as feedback that you are doing evil things, so much as conversation-specific XP — more for doing certain kinds of actions, but some bonus consolation points on the other side just to reflect that you're a bit more savvy and experienced all around.