101 réponses à ce sujet

[dimidimidimi]

I completely adored ME1. I loved the rich storyline, the unique character interactions, the nostalgic sci-fi soundtrack, the complex gameplay, the exploration, character development etc, etc. I was so charmed by the overwhelming experience that I also bought the two books that followed, Ascension and Revelation, and enjoyed both of them. I used to be one of the thousands of devoted bioware fans. I have bought Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 (collector's edition), Knights of the Old Republic 1, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1 and recently Dragon Age: Origins. 

When I finished ME1, the sequel became instantly my most awaited game title. I joined the Bioware forums, and tried to give my feedback as I believe there is always room for improvement, even when it comes to the best gaming titles ever. Unfortunately what I was reading in the feedback thread was not heart-warming at all. See I thought the game would had a different following than the mainstream gaming masses. So I was astonished and disappointed at the same time to read that there were many people wanting the game to feature more combat elements, they were asking for Shepard to weild two weapons at the same time etc, etc.

I added my 2 cents back then, by stating that I would like to see richer locales (more places like the citadel), and I would had liked to see new gameplay elements that would make the gameplay more diverse and more interesting. For example I would have liked to see more investigation elements in the game, missions that would have you looking for a clue in a crime scene, or trying to figure out how to make an alien device work. Managing objects in such a way to create another object, etc ,etc.

Things got worse when I started reading about Bioware's plans for ME2. Less RPG-elements, more streamlined combat technique, a nuclear-weapon, more action, more blood etc, etc. The reason I was such a big fan of Bioware (and I suspect that I speak for some others as well) was that their games were not like all the other games where shooting is the core of the gameplay. Shooting or killing in general was a necessary step to progress the story, but it seemed to me that bioware adopted the theory of the general gaming market, reversed their own theory and made the story a necessary step to progress the shooting bit.

The release of the last DLC for ME1 was a clear indication of this change of philosophy. I did not buy it but judging from the feedback it received it was a "shoot at everything" sort of DLC. Trailers, screenshots, box cover art of ME2 did not help me become more confident either. A new shepard whose lips now got this Rambo-I'll make everything explode-vibe, bearing a gun, shooting, shooting and more shooting. And now that the game is out I am reading so many people who bought the game and felt cheated and I am grateful that I did this thorough research before buying it.

I know that it's been getting great reviews and so far it is considered to be critically acclaimed, but to me this doesn't say much. I'm sure that Half Life 2 and Bioshock got better scores than ME1 but these games would never rate higher than ME1 on my personal chart (and I bought and completed both of them). I know what is going to follow now on this thread... A bunch of one-liners from people who are irritated to read anything critical of ME2 such as "ok good riddance" , "see ya", "who cares", "another one who complains" etc, etc.

Let me address some responses to my post before they're made. I'm sure that we'll read someone saying "bioware and ea are businesses so they have to make money and take money into account". Yes I am aware of the fact that Bioware and EA are businesses and need to make money, as much as I am aware that I am a customer who needs to be satisfied in order to provide the money to the business that is asking me for my money. And as a long customer of the business called Bioware, I feel the need to express why I am disappointed at the way they handled what I consider the best product they produced in their history of game development.

I'm also aware that Jade Empire was a game that focused heavily on fighting and didn't feature diverse gameplay elements. This is exactly why I consider Jade Empire to be the weakest title Bioware has produced. I'm not saying it was a bad game, I actually liked it, but all the fighting got tedious and boring after a while.

I know that many are glad with the turn that Bioware has made. I and many others are not. I won't be as bold as to say that this will end in bioware's demise. If I had to make a guess, I'd say that this might actually make them more money. I do however believe that we will see fewer high-quality, unique titles from bioware in the future. I do enjoy Dragon Age a great deal - having turned off the comical over the top gore - but I don't know how many more games like that we'll get from Bioware in the future.

P.S. I would be grateful if we didn't start another "what is an RPG" discussion here. I couldn't care less about genre titles. What I do care about is that the gameplay of an interactive story is not solely based on shooting. There are so many more interesting things to do within the context of a game story that it buffles me how stagnated the game industry has become when it comes to gameplay ideas. And I know that this stagnation has led to the growth of the casual game market but we should be able to get big budget titles where we are able to do something else instead of only shooting at things.

Modifié par dimidimidimi, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:12 .

[Spectre Impersonator]

If you haven't gotten the game you should at least rent it. The combat is fun, but I'm a story person myself and I usually rushed through the combat in ME 1. The story here is still rich and intriguing.

[Brenn86]

You are in a vocal minority. I hate to say it but the sales numbers speak for themselves.



So to them, if it sells and it isn't broke. Don't fix it, improve upon it.



While you may feel this 'streamlined combat' is a bad thing it allows for the story to flow better/faster instead of combat taking up far too much time.



Yes the character skill RPG elements were toned down and simplified but they're still there.

[Sashem]

I'm with you on this but Mass Effect was always a console title first, and console title are aimed at the console crowd, so it need to be a little more simplistic and more "shoot everything" and "download more DLC".



Kids like shooting at things and seeing big explosion, so this is why we have a lot of games like that, some are good thought, and even if a little dumbed down, ME2 is still a great title... at least for me...

[Valmy]

Maybe I am playing a different game here. How is ME2 more combat intensive than ME1? I mean maybe my memory was bad but I fought all the time in ME1. Then there was dialog with NPCs and plot exposition and down time back at the ship to handle inventory and talk to my crew and companions. I do the exact same thing in ME2...the exact same freaking thing. How is there MORE combat? Do you have any data to support this entirely subjective and in my experience false conclusion?



The companions still have great dialog, the combat is still fun if different, and the plot is still fun and engaging. What has changed exactly? It is like if somebody changed the color of the tile on the floor of your bathroom and you suddenly declare it is no longer a bathroom.



Where exactly is the lack of RPG elements? Yes the inventory is handled a bit differently...yes the leveling system is a bit simplified...but these are not major changes to me. I can see perhaps you might be in favor of going to a system with more choices but...really? Suddenly this is a dramatic turn? It is not that I disagree with the criticisms people have laid at ME2 it just they are vague, make no sense, or are blatantly false and seem to be based on perception and marketing and prejudice rather than actual experience with the product.

[RogueAI]

What pisses me off the most is the armor, and weapon selection - they are so pathetic. I'm stuck with N7/Onyx armor that I can barely customize except for colour.

They took away armor from the game to make pre-order bonuses, and stupid Dr. Pepper promotions. The worst thing is the pre-order armors can't even be customized, and you stand out so much when playing.

Before some fanboy decides to be a douche, I did upgrade the armor but that hardly changes anything. I'm around 15 hours in and haven't recieved anything that actually changes how the armor looks.

Modifié par RogueAI, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:16 .

[Bigeyez]

Funny how improving upon systems and changing things is called stagnation. Stagnation to me would mean staying with the same broken inventory system and keeping the useless pre-requisite skills.

[Valmy]

Bigeyez wrote...

Stagnation to me would mean staying with the same broken inventory system and keeping the useless pre-requisite skills.

The inventory system wasn't broken but I think it was more suited to fantasy environment where you are searching for magical swords and armors.  There just isn't the same joy looking for the next technologically better gun and I think this change better suits a Sci Fi game.

But how is 'equiping a better weapon, selling and omnigelling the rest' broken?  It worked fine.  Does broken now mean 'I didn't personally like it' these days?  I think it works better in a game like Dragon Age or a MMORPG where it is about the big loots and less in a game like Mass Effect.

Modifié par Valmy, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:24 .

[Valmy]

RogueAI wrote...

What pisses me off the most is the armor, and weapon selection - they are so pathetic. I'm stuck with N7/Onyx armor that I can barely customize except for colour.

I can see your point but in ME1 everybody ended up with the Colossus Armor at the end and everybody looked the same.  I guess it is a matter of taste but I think it is sort of nice each character retains their individual appearance rather than eventually all looking the same.  I mean it is not like we could customize our armor much in the first game either.  Heck being able to change the color was not available last time at all.

[Zynnix]

Bioware has made a turn? Because they're only allowed to make RPG's right? god forbid they make another kind of game. And FYI ME2 is still very much an RPG. The inventory is streamlined, the combat is better.... this doesn't mean its not an RPG. You still get those wonderful grey-area decisions to make that you'd expect from a Bioware game. You still level up and gain experience, and put points into skills, you can customize your armor and upgrade your weapons, and each of your companions has an interesting back story.

Sorry Bioware didn't make YOUR game, but don't accuse them of ruining anything. ME2 is better in every way than ME1, so either shut up and go away, or believe me and play it through.

[Vandrayke]

Bigeyez wrote...

Funny how improving upon systems and changing things is called stagnation. Stagnation to me would mean staying with the same broken inventory system and keeping the useless pre-requisite skills.

agreed

micromanaging inventory and small skill change increments isn't difficult, it's tedious

fewer, more impactful decisions >>>>>>>> more decisions that mean little

[Darth_Shizz]

RogueAI wrote...

Before some fanboy decides to be a douche, I did upgrade the armor but that hardly changes anything. I'm around 15 hours in and haven't recieved anything that actually changes how the armor looks.

Upgrade the armour, it changes how it looks.

Valmy wrote...
Where exactly is the lack of RPG elements? Yes the inventory is handled a bit differently...yes the leveling system is a bit simplified...but these are not major changes to me. I can see perhaps you might be in favor of going to a system with more choices but...really? Suddenly this is a dramatic turn? It is not that I disagree with the criticisms people have laid at ME2 it just they are vague, make no sense, or are blatantly false and seem to be based on perception and marketing and prejudice rather than actual experience with the product.

I'd have to agree with this (as well as the post in general. I won't lie to you dimi. When I first got into ME2, I immediately noticed the change...and this was just from the cinematics. Combat felt...far far different to what I experienced in ME1. However, it was not a bad change, nor is it now the focus of Mass Effect.

Believe me, I've spent just as much time exploring the story, reading the Codex, and talking to squad mates as I have in combat. The real difference is, you'll actually pay more attention to the combat now due to it being more hands on. This doesn't mean the dynamic or direction has changed though.

As Valmy said;

A bathroom is a bathroom, regardless of whether it has carpet or tiles.

Modifié par Darth_Shizz, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:31 .

[Cavegeta]

RogueAI wrote...

What pisses me off the most is the armor, and weapon selection - they are so pathetic. I'm stuck with N7/Onyx armor that I can barely customize except for colour.

They took away armor from the game to make pre-order bonuses, and stupid Dr. Pepper promotions. The worst thing is the pre-order armors can't even be customized, and you stand out so much when playing.

Before some fanboy decides to be a douche, I did upgrade the armor but that hardly changes anything. I'm around 15 hours in and haven't recieved anything that actually changes how the armor looks.

I imagine they'll eventually address this concern with DLC.   I'm just wondering if it will be free through the Cerberus network or cost more money.  

[Vandrayke]

It's like if you go and play an NWN mod. After all the content added, there are like 50 classes with flowery descriptions but they are all redundant. That's why I liked how in Dragon Age, they got rid of a lot of that junk so you could focus more on gameplay.

[Sashem]

Probably will cost money.... But if they come with a mission or a story arc then maybe it will be worth it.

[Guaritor]

RogueAI wrote...

What pisses me off the most is the armor, and weapon selection - they are so pathetic. I'm stuck with N7/Onyx armor that I can barely customize except for colour.

They took away armor from the game to make pre-order bonuses, and stupid Dr. Pepper promotions. The worst thing is the pre-order armors can't even be customized, and you stand out so much when playing.

Before some fanboy decides to be a douche, I did upgrade the armor but that hardly changes anything. I'm around 15 hours in and haven't recieved anything that actually changes how the armor looks.

Weapon selection? You realize there were maybe 5 guns total in the first game... sure there were a bunch of different stats flying around, but every pistol was the same with maybe a little more damage or less accuracy.  Now each time you find a new gun it FEELS different.  Upgrading to the tempest submachine gun was awesome, huge rof increase, and the research adds to it, making my smg absolutley TEAR through shields, increasing my heavy shotgun's ammo capacity etc.


The armor im kinda meh on... i did like spending time looking through my inventory to squeeze out every last bit i could out of my team, in that reguard i dislike not having that option.  They could add more armor upgrades in too, i haven't found too many and im ~30 hours in with 10 loyal squadmembers.  I would actually prefer this system (at least for shepard, not the crewmates) if there were a whole bunch of choices for armor pieces... like say 5-10 choices for each slot?

[Orogenic]

dimi-



Great post. Absolutely stellar, and I agree 100%.



Interesting note- I quit playing Dragon Age after a couple hours because the gore was just ridiculous (I work in an ER in real life and really don't need to be reminded). Might go back and look at the game again knowing that I can turn that crap off. Well maybe... god I hate games with swords and elves... that's why Mass Effect was so special for me.

[Raydiate]

dimidimidimi wrote...
When I finished ME1, the sequel became instantly my most awaited game title. I joined the Bioware forums, and tried to give my feedback as I believe there is always room for improvement, even when it comes to the best gaming titles ever. Unfortunately what I was reading in the feedback thread was not heart-warming at all. See I thought the game would had a different following than the mainstream gaming masses. So I was astonished and disappointed at the same time to read that there were many people wanting the game to feature more combat elements, they were asking for Shepard to weild two weapons at the same time etc, etc.

Really? Lets hope that never happens Sheperd wielding two weapons would be funny in a very sad way.

I added my 2 cents back then, by stating that I would like to see richer locales (more places like the citadel), and I would had liked to see new gameplay elements that would make the gameplay more diverse and more interesting. For example I would have liked to see more investigation elements in the game, missions that would have you looking for a clue in a crime scene, or trying to figure out how to make an alien device work. Managing objects in such a way to create another object, etc ,etc.

Anyone who has played a MMO will know that this is called grind and has no place in a single-player game. There are richer locales, Omega(center of the terminus systems), Illium(Asari Colony similiar to Noveria, well at least according ot the game), and the Citidel returns. The later part of your paragraph seems to point more towards the Resident Evil series. Mass Effect is not Resident Evil.

Things got worse when I started reading about Bioware's plans for ME2. Less RPG-elements, more streamlined combat technique, a nuclear-weapon, more action, more blood etc, etc. The reason I was such a big fan of Bioware (and I suspect that I speak for some others as well) was that their games were not like all the other games where shooting is the core of the gameplay. Shooting or killing in general was a necessary step to progress the story, but it seemed to me that bioware adopted the theory of the general gaming market, reversed their own theory and made the story a necessary step to progress the shooting bit.

Umm nuclear-weapon? WTF, I don't even know what orfice you pulled THAT out of. IMO the only RPG-elements that were good in ME1 were the actual dialoge and story, everything else wasn't that great. Overall it sounds to me like you don't want a video game but an interactive visual book. That brings me to a question: are you Asian?

I know that it's been getting great reviews and so far it is considered to be critically acclaimed, but to me this doesn't say much. I'm sure that Half Life 2 and Bioshock got better scores than ME1 but these games would never rate higher than ME1 on my personal chart (and I bought and completed both of them). I know what is going to follow now on this thread... A bunch of one-liners from people who are irritated to read anything critical of ME2 such as "ok good riddance" , "see ya", "who cares", "another one who complains" etc, etc.

Good riddance sums it up pretty well.

[Thompson family]

One.



Score to beat from yesterday: Five

[Orogenic]

Raydiate wrote...

Good riddance sums it up pretty well.

Yet another childish response from another small mind blinded by an overwhelming sense of self-righteous entitlement.

[Everoz]

The inventory sistem was not broken, but faulted. Bioware removed it entirely as a fix.
One of the things that i liked about bioware games was seeing my character progress as the story developed, in ME 2 all i can find is story progression( btw this small advance in the story was better suited for an addon, and not a full fledged sequel, i mean, all you do is gather some men and head for the collector base, there isn't anything extraordinary revealed to the player).

Also, why do we have thermal clips? Ammo is still unlimited, but we need to hunt for those clips that sometimes spawn out of nowhere, and if we can't find any, we can't shoot, while is ME 1 the weapon cooled itself....how is this an upgrade? Not to mention that clips, once picked up multiply themselves for all weapons, but once i run out of clips for one weapon, i can't use the ones i have for the others...universal, NOT ! And from what i can see, only  Shep needs the clips, all other characters have the "unlimited cooling proficiency" .

Biotic powers are useless(why can i use them only on enemies that no longer have armor/shields/biotics ), while the soldier is the GOD class as he can shoot everything down in seconds, thus clearly appealing to shooter fans.

Modifié par Everoz, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:43 .

[Sashem]

One of my complain with ME2 is that it now seems to attract COD kids who can't have a serious discussion....

[Graunt]

Brenn86 wrote...

You are in a vocal minority. I hate to say it but the sales numbers speak for themselves.

So to them, if it sells and it isn't broke. Don't fix it, improve upon it.

While you may feel this 'streamlined combat' is a bad thing it allows for the story to flow better/faster instead of combat taking up far too much time.

Yes the character skill RPG elements were toned down and simplified but they're still there.

Sales numbers don't speak for quality, it speaks for mass appeal which is exactly what they were aiming for with this game.  They tried to satisfy people that didn't think it had enough shooter in it, which happens to be the vast majority of gamers out there.  Shooters sell and sell and sell and the irony is the majority of them are all the same yet they still sell.  Why?  I have no idea as I find them all completely boring and repetitive but they still sell and that's all Bioware was going for.

That being said, I like the direction they went with the actual shooting part of the game, at least everything but biotics anyway and your squad members don't feel like two retardbots that are only there for you to manually use their offensive abilities each time they are off cooldown while they happily shoot boxes, walls and each other.

Modifié par Graunt, 29 janvier 2010 - 04:45 .

[ToJKa1]

I must say that i was concerned about the removed RPG mechanics and pure TPS combat, but now that i've played it for two days, i must say it works. It may not be as RPG as Mass Effect was, but the end result is a much better game. In my humble opinion, naturaly.

Raydiate wrote...

Umm nuclear-weapon? WTF, I don't even know what orfice you pulled THAT out of.

The M-whatever Cain is more or less a mini-nuke. Personally, i prefer the flamethrower

[Raydiate]

Orogenic wrote...

Raydiate wrote...

Good riddance sums it up pretty well.

Yet another childish response from another small mind blinded by an overwhelming sense of self-righteous entitlement.

Yet another intellectual response from another big mind blinded by an overwhelming but unwarranted self-importance.