252 réponses à ce sujet

[Guru Gaspur]

Sinosleep great posts thats the way to play the Vanguard!!!!

[Catlana]

Kwonnern wrote...

How great it would be if Biotic Charge had it's own independent cooldown.

Yeah, that would be fun. Bioware wanted all cooldowns on the same timer thou. The easiest way to make Vanguards better atm would be to extend the time and power of the shield buff on charge. Shotguns could do some more damage as well. The more detailed fixes like adding Barrier instead of lift will have to wait till ME3.  

[sinosleep]

Graunt wrote...

Even if the shotgun is marginally better upclose, and that's a big if, it loses for the simple fact that the Vindicator completely destroys it at a distance too.

Distance doesn't matter to a vanguard. The whole point of the class is to charge in and wreck things up close.

I already said I don't have a web cam, and I don't know why you're always so hostile as though the Vanguard is some religion of yours that I'm attacking.  You hype up the class and awesome shotgun damage and yet you spend more time healing than anything else.  Even in the videos where you're actually charging around, you're still crouched waiting for health just as much and so much while your charge is waiting to be used.  And when did I ever say anything about it being wrong to use squadmates?  Oh yeah, I didn't.

RamsenC demonstrated what a Vanguard can eventually do, but he was also essentially under optimal conditions that whole clip.  Solitary enemies that were right next to cover.  And what level were you in your first video and what level in the second?  He's 20 something which means up until fully upgraded weapons (and the bonus weapon), passives and charge the Vanguard struggles more than anyone and is basically a poor man's Solider because he has nothing to deal with long range besides the two hand guns and his class defining ability is more of a liability than simply sitting back and shooting.  Rocket launchers are especially painful for this class if you didn't take something like Reave.  Problem is, taking Reave or any bonus at the start for that matter simply takes away from the 20 points you need just to even begin playing the class.  The few good things it's for at lower levels is interrupts and also to knock down charging Krogans.

The reason I'm hostile is because only people attacking the vids don't attack on merit, they simply make **** up. A couple of pages back I had to sit there and type of a kill by kill one of the other videos cause I was accused of letting the squad do everything in it. As for liabilities, what you call a liability I call what makes the class fun. I don't need to shoot back from range, CAUSE THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE class IS TO GET IN CLOSE TO KILL THINGS. Which is exactly what I do in the vid. Where did I get all my kills? Up close and personal right? And what got me into that firing range? Charge. So let me get this straight, the ability that me into range to do all the killing I did, is more of a liability than a help? No, sorry, doesn't work that way. It got me kills, while never getting me killed, therefore, it's an ASSET. I needed the pistol all of ONCE. To take down a shield so that when I charged INTO A GROUP (which I supposedly never do either) where the remainder of guys were fully shielded it would actually make sense.

You watch a vid and then complain about what the class IS, instead of making any actual comment on what really took place in the video. I killed 8 guys not using any aoe attacks in under a minute once the actual combat starts. I then go on to kill another 3 in 20 seconds and if not for the charge glitch I enountered would have killed another one within 4 seconds. I never die, never run out of ammo, and best of all HAD FUN. And yet all you think is post worthy is, "you spent more time healing than anything else?" Really? It just reads like BS, and frankly I think it is and I reply as such.

p.s. The optimal settings thing, DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY ARE THERE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE GODDAMNED GAME. I mean, hello, it's a cover based shooter, how often are there groups of guys no where near cover? So that arguement is patently ridiculous.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 11:52 .

[Blue_dodo]

Deviija wrote...

I find myself agreeing. I also thought we would be able to use the Charge as a tactical retreat to get AWAY from enemies. Doesn't look like it. One needs an enemy to use the power on... so... :| I'm really not impressed with what has happened to my beloved class so far. Folks keep telling me to stick it out and put points into Charge and Shockwave and their combined uses will prove to be handy. But... still, if I have to put points into these skills before they're useful, along with the prerequisites to open them, then I'll need to wait a half dozen levels JUST to be useful. What tides me over until then? Just regular weapons...? Either way, I am not enjoying how this was created.

charge is meant for the offensive, that's the whole basis of being a vanguard

try charging enemies who are covered, this can give you a tactical advantage, as you can charge right behind enemy lines, be careful though, as you may end up hurting yourself.

[sinosleep]

Blue_dodo wrote...

Deviija wrote...

I find myself agreeing. I also thought we would be able to use the Charge as a tactical retreat to get AWAY from enemies. Doesn't look like it. One needs an enemy to use the power on... so... :| I'm really not impressed with what has happened to my beloved class so far. Folks keep telling me to stick it out and put points into Charge and Shockwave and their combined uses will prove to be handy. But... still, if I have to put points into these skills before they're useful, along with the prerequisites to open them, then I'll need to wait a half dozen levels JUST to be useful. What tides me over until then? Just regular weapons...? Either way, I am not enjoying how this was created.

charge is meant for the offensive, that's the whole basis of being a vanguard

try charging enemies who are covered, this can give you a tactical advantage, as you can charge right behind enemy lines, be careful though, as you may end up hurting yourself.

It can occasionally get you out of the trouble. In the next to last vid I posted I charged into a group and didn't kill everyone. So to get out of that situation I chargred a guy who was all by himself on a balcony. Got me out of the group, killed him, then took cover till charge recharged.

[Graunt]

sinosleep wrote...
I don't need to shoot back from range, CAUSE THE ENTIRE PURPOSE OF THE
class IS TO GET IN CLOSE TO KILL THINGS. Which is exactly what I do in
the vid

Really?  So I guess you charge to sentries that are across a chasm shooting you, or turrets or rocket launchers that are on top of rooves?  I can't believe you actually even bothered stating that as though I didn't know what charge was for,  the caps helped though...I almost forgot.  Too bad you can't even use it in those situations which are plenty.

And yet all you think is post worthy is, "you spent more time healing
than anything else?" Really? It just reads like BS, and frankly I think
it is and I reply as such.

I don't need to post anything about how much fun you had, because that wasn't even the reason you were posting those videos in the first place.  If you're going to mega hype something up, be prepared to get it ripped apart when it fails to live up to all the talk.  And I have a right to talk about how much garbage the Vanguard is compared to virtually every other class until maybe level 25 when the game is already over, just as you have every right to let everyone know how much fun charging and sitting is.

p.s. The optimal settings thing, DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE THEY ARE
THERE THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRETY OF THE GODDAMNED GAME. I mean, hello,
it's a cover based shooter, how often are there groups of guys no where
near cover? So that arguement is patently ridiculous.

P.S., good job keeping your head in the sand about the whole discussion and forgetting that there's no other class that has to have enemies seperated at least a little bit to do anything besides sit back and shoot a handgun or assault rifle.

Modifié par Graunt, 06 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[sinosleep]

You run into enemies you can't charge into at best 1/4 of the time, and when that happens I just use my squad so it's not an issue. Mass overload or reave, mass pull, bye bye ledges.

And again, how does it fail to live up to the talk. I killed 8 dudes with no aoe in under a minute using charge and shotguns almost exclusively. It lives up to the talk fine, you just refuse to aknowledge it. Cuase I don't stand there eating bullets for the entirety of the video.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 12:05 .

[sos986]

sino, your awesome you've met every condition this post has put on you and you inspired me to build a vanguard good job bro.

[Veritasinpersonam]

Completed Vanguard on Insanity.



L2P Nooblets

[MasterMenace]

Charge IS worthless on Hardcore/Insanity. Seriously. They need to buff it up and make it do insane damage once lv. 4 and do some crazy damage because atm, it's worthless.



High risk/High reward? How can you kill people when you charge in when they will dominate you in 2 seconds? Plus, the claymore shotgun+lv. 4 incend. can kill people in 1 shot after charge, but that's 1 PERSON, and you gotta friggen reload after each shot.



They need to give a super duper shield boost after charge...it's really a worthless skill unless theree's only 2 enemies left.



It's VERY useful in veteran/normal. Obviously because you can destroy the people before they destroy you.

[MasterMenace]

Also, vanguard is not worthless. It's just the charge ability...you can't use it really when there's a lot of enemies. And that kills the fun ...on insanity.

Modifié par MasterMenace, 06 février 2010 - 01:51 .

[dragonic9100]

i use it to set up a flank. for example: when i see a group of enemys i look for the one thats the farthest away or with some good cover, charge them, kill them, then while my team attacks from one side i attack from the other. though i do see where your coming from, it takes a while to get used to

[sinosleep]

Starhaus wrote...

Try it on insanity level, - its even crazier to try melee.    Insanity level requires massively repeatable biotic or tech powers since it could take dozens of clips to finish just one foe as everything has maxxed out barriers and armor now, even low level stuff.    Incinerate works moderately well on shields and very well on armor, so that is usually what I go with on Insanity, plus something to slow them down: cryo, mass pull, or slam.    Infiltrator seems best for Insanity IMO, since invisibility really makes positioning possible.  

Just imagine trying to beat on one foe 50 times just to kill it, all the while a mass of other foe is trying to kill you when just 2 or 3 of their hits will kill you... lol.

I melee all the time in my vids, seems to work quite well on insanity. Hell I think I actually charge, shotty, melee more often than I charge, and two shot. And that's without any major upgrades since I was all of level 9 in my best vid.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 02:10 .

[noobzor99]

MasterMenace wrote...

Charge IS worthless on Hardcore/Insanity. Seriously. They need to buff it up and make it do insane damage once lv. 4 and do some crazy damage because atm, it's worthless.

Guess what?  Tech armor is useless on insanity too!

Yet I still beat it as a sentinel...

Adrenaline rush and active camo are the best powers on the higher difficulties imo.

[RamsenC]

Kronner wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Dannok1234 wrote...

I'll happly admit to that. I use it just the way you did, when taking on one enemy at a time it's superb. It's just when people are stacked together I greatly prefer one of the shotguns. (I can't seem to get comfort zone with the krogan shotgun tho)

Not sure why you would prefer the shotgun when people are grouped up since as far as I know shotguns do not pierce. You will just be cutting your damage in half trying to kill two guys at once.

Anyways I did some math, hopefully its correct. The Vindicator has a delay between bursts of 0.625s and each burst takes around 0.2s to complete. The 1.5s for the Claymore is the reload speed. I just listed how much damage each gun would be doing at different times.

note: Anything past two seconds is pointless, but its there for reference.

Vindicator 
111 in 0.2s
222 in 1.025s
333 in 1.85s
444 in 2.675s
555 in 3.5s

Claymore
200 in 0s
400 in 1.5s
600 in 3s 

Katana
110 in 0s
220 in 1s
330 in 2s

Scimitar
81 in 0s
162 in 0.6s
243 in 1.2s
324 in 1.8s


Things you should gather from this data:
- The Scimitar and Katana not good enough.
- The Claymore and Vindicator switch superiority at different times.
- The Claymore is better than the Vindicator at close range overall, but not better enough. 
- The Vindicator is deadly accurate at long range yet still competes with the shotguns.
- Why does the Vindicator compete closely with the Claymore at close range, but is blown away by the Widow at long range?

I do not think it's that easy. You have to include penetration, penalty for being too close or to far and friction(?) I think..just look in the .ini file.

These weapons all have the same damage bonus for being up close and the same penetration. The only difference is shotguns get a 50% bonus to shields/barriers and ARs get a 25% damage bonus to shields/barriers/armor.

[RamsenC]

Graunt wrote...

I take a vid you take a vid and let the forum decide what actually looks like it worked better in gameplay.

Even if the shotgun is marginally better upclose, and that's a big if, it loses for the simple fact that the Vindicator completely destroys it at a distance too.

I can't ****ing win with you dude. I play essentially pause free,
I charge practically every enemy, I kill EVERYTHING on screen with the
shotgun, Jacob dies 15 seconds into the video, and yet I didn't "do
much of anything" on the field. I can't possibly kill enough **** quick
enough without dying using a supposedly gimped ability and a supposedly
gimped weapon to make you happy. I'm not allowed to use my squadmates,
I'm not allowed to take cover, I guess I'm expected to charge into the
middle of 5 man groups and just stand there shotgunning them all
without taking a step all the while eating bullets cause they taste
like chicken and letting Jacob and Miranda bang off screen. .....

Please, record yourself doing the same section I did in the last video, and show me just how gimped I really am.

I already said I don't have a web cam, and I don't know why you're always so hostile as though the Vanguard is some religion of yours that I'm attacking.  You hype up the class and awesome shotgun damage and yet you spend more time healing than anything else.  Even in the videos where you're actually charging around, you're still crouched waiting for health just as much and so much while your charge is waiting to be used.  And when did I ever say anything about it being wrong to use squadmates?  Oh yeah, I didn't.

RamsenC demonstrated what a Vanguard can eventually do, but he was also essentially under optimal conditions that whole clip.  Solitary enemies that were right next to cover.  And what level were you in your first video and what level in the second?  He's 20 something which means up until fully upgraded weapons (and the bonus weapon), passives and charge the Vanguard struggles more than anyone and is basically a poor man's Solider because he has nothing to deal with long range besides the two hand guns and his class defining ability is more of a liability than simply sitting back and shooting.  Rocket launchers are especially painful for this class if you didn't take something like Reave.  Problem is, taking Reave or any bonus at the start for that matter simply takes away from the 20 points you need just to even begin playing the class.  The few good things it's for at lower levels is interrupts and also to knock down charging Krogans.

Not sure what you mean by optimal conditions. Almost this entire game is optimal conditions, theres cover everywhere. Nothing can kill a room full of enemies faster than a Vanguard playing well (cept the Widow). The time when you can't reach enemies is when you use the Vindicator or the Hand Cannon. The Hand Cannon is no slouch btw, it just has limited ammo, which should not be a problem if you run with shotguns mostly.

By the way I do not rest for health EVER as a Vanguard. The only thing I wait for is Charge to cool down and just general analyzing the battle for my next move.

Heres a tip for people wanting to get good at Vanguard. When you see a group of enemies in front of you Charge the furthest enemy (look at the radar to make sure you know how many enemies there are). After killing the furthest enemies take his cover and start taking out his friends one by one. You squad mates will be in front while you are in back. Its essentially a pincer attack.

Modifié par RamsenC, 06 février 2010 - 02:58 .

[sinosleep]

Dude I wouldn't bother. I get the distinct feeling that for some people on this forum killing 20 guys in 2 minutes without dying wouldn't be enough. They'd figure out some way to try and invalidate the vid.

p.s. To everyone who had something positive to say, thanks. I'm not here to try and say vanguards are the top of the food chain and greatest class ever, all I'm trying to say is that as a class, and in terms of charge, shotguns, and ammo specifically they are far from useless.

p.p.s Upon rewatching the video I just noticed something else, I spent time waiting on my health exactly ONCE in the entirety of the video. Towards the middle, when I charge the guy on the balcony. I had already been taking damage, I charged him, 2 shotted him, and then waited on my health to recoup before charging into the 2nd group. ONCE, IN THE WHOLE VIDEO. And this friggen guy tries to act like I spent the whole video waiting on health cause I took cover. There's a difference between taking cover in between charges, and actually taking cover for the express purpose of recouping health.

Modifié par sinosleep, 06 février 2010 - 05:09 .

[LostVector]

 I just finished insanity on my vanguard.  Charge is not worthless, especially further into the game.  Early on it's kind of a death sentence.

What annoys me is that as far as I can tell the recharge/cooldown bonus is broken, and no one is bringing it up.  I count to 6 mississippi easily when I'm recovering, and with -15% from the champion bonus and -20% from research, I should be counting to 4 mississippi.  Does no one care?  This severely gimps the class even beyond where it should be.

[Anew614]

LostVector i agree, just beat the game on hardcore i got all the biotic upgrades even went champion and still it recharges at 6 secs, i can say after beating this game 6 times (yes i'ma beast) that some gameplay elements in this game is broken but good thing it do not distract too much from enjoying it, here's to hopeing they patch this stuff although i get the feeling they arent gonna do that for some reason.

[Nistelohn]

I am playing a Vanguard from ME1 and while its fun (I play at difficulty: insanity), its almost entirely useless. Bad player, dont think so



You give up (or in rare cases win) valuable strategic positioning when you use the power and in return you should be rewarded much more than currently. This can easily be fixed Bioware.



- Charge needs to deal more damage from the very first skill grade, and obviously progress way more than currently.



Most of the time you dont face isolated enemies and hence, you put your self in the midst of instant DEATH, exposing yourself for attacks from several angles, 0.21 seconds later Critical Mission Failure.



- Charge lvl 4 needs to have an option to pick a "Charge twice", one to get "in" and one to get "out", dealing less damage of course. This would make the ability useful.



I am on the Collector ship now, and I think I have used Charge 3 times so far in the campaign. Every single time not really gaining much from it. A knock down of a single enemy and finish with the shotgun. Might as well have finished him by team mates biotic powers or sniper (best weapon if you are into HS). In the real problematic situations Charge is futile and the weakness of this piece of game mechanic should be evident for most. I suggest people play on Insanity and find out how useless this ability is compared to other biotic attacks: Heavy Incinerate, Heavy Neural Shock, Warp lvl 4, Shockwave lvl 4, Heavy Overload, AI Hacking... ie.

[Taura-Tierno]

Charge works fine for me. It's not ideal in all situations (and suicidal in some), but I generally don't use it all of the time. Once, twice a fight, maybe, and only against enemies that are close to cover I can use once I've dispatched them. Charging right into the middle of a large group of enemies without any cover nearby means certain death (mostly).

[XyA_DeathKnight]

Nistelohn wrote...

I am playing a Vanguard from ME1 and while its fun (I play at difficulty: insanity), its almost entirely useless. Bad player, dont think so

You give up (or in rare cases win) valuable strategic positioning when you use the power and in return you should be rewarded much more than currently.

Most of the time you dont face isolated enemies and hence, you put your self in the midst of instant DEATH, exposing yourself for attacks from several angles, 0.21 seconds later Critical Mission Failure.

I am on the Collector ship now, and I think I have used Charge 3 times so far in the campaign. Every single time not really gaining much from it. A knock down of a single enemy and finish with the shotgun. Might as well have finished him by team mates biotic powers or sniper (best weapon if you are into HS). In the real problematic situations Charge is futile and the weakness of this piece of game mechanic should be evident for most. I suggest people play on Insanity and find out how useless this ability is compared to other biotic attacks: Heavy Incinerate, Heavy Neural Shock, Warp lvl 4, Shockwave lvl 4, Heavy Overload, AI Hacking... ie.

This is exactly what I think and why I posted this to begin with.

I have finished the game now, since I started this thread, and I can faithfully say that while charge does get a little better as you go along, it still doesn't ever get to the point where it is worthwhile to use, other than for the "coolness" factor... typically immediately followed by death... if it even works when I select it.

Very happy with everything else in the Vanguard class, never put any points into Pull, though.

Still disappointed with Charge.

[lenkite]

I just started playing a Vanguard and after my first charge+death, I came here. After seeing sinosleep's videos, I think I got a good idea of *how* to play one. (I love the way he flanks). Look forward to playing with the class.