252 réponses à ce sujet

[TrojanGuy]

This thread is making me seriously rethink my intentions to try a Vanguard after my Sentinel playthrough. Seems to me that each class' defining ability should be really useful. But based on this thread, it sounds like Charge (which WAS advertised to seem really awesome) is very situational (i.e. only 1 or 2 enemies left in a fight), and even in those situations there's not really a reason to use charge instead of any other ability.

[sinosleep]

If subscribe to that line of thinking that using anything other than an infiltrator/soldier and sniper rifles exclusively makes the game pointless. Being as using sniper rifles on those two classes is the safest, quickest way to destroy anything in game.

[Catlana]

TrojanGuy wrote...

This thread is making me seriously rethink my intentions to try a Vanguard after my Sentinel playthrough. Seems to me that each class' defining ability should be really useful. But based on this thread, it sounds like Charge (which WAS advertised to seem really awesome) is very situational (i.e. only 1 or 2 enemies left in a fight), and even in those situations there's not really a reason to use charge instead of any other ability.

First, make no doubt that I think that Vanguards and charge need improvements. Second, you want an easy time with the game play a soldier or inflitrator. Those two classes roll through the game on any difficulty level.

However, if you want to try something a little different. The other classes are fun because you have a variety of other abilities to use.

On topic, Vanguards should have gotten barrier instead of lift and charge should set shields higher for a longer period of time.

[_Dannok1234]

Looks like a lot of people really don't understand how charge can work for you, and many can't get it working at all for whatever reason that might be.
I find this completely baffling as it seems so easy. I've played several classes now, but haven't finished yet, as the combat compared to a vanguard is slow and boring. Most of the time you have to hide behind cover to shoot or use abilities.

Charge let's you dictate the pace of the engagement, it lets you finish fights far far faster then with pretty much anyone else. Ever notice that if you move forward rapidly far fewer enemies spawn?

Well with a vanguard playing on insanity, you can pretty much charge every single enemy and clear a room of 6-8 guys in 20-30 seconds with ease!
Those that say you cannot charge into groups on anything higher then normal, are plain and simply wrong. If I and others can do this, then anyone can do it. It's that simple. There's nothing broken with charge, there's nothing broken or underpowered with shotguns.
Anyone saying differently, really have no clue.

However, the margin for error, when you charge a group of 3 enemies all with full shields intact, becomes very very small. Sometimes you are operating away from cover etc and you have to make every shot count. You need Inferno rounds and heavy charge to replenish your shields fully, (Area doesn't work on shielded enemies anyway)and personally I find the 0.4 second faster recharge of charging with Champion to be of much greater use then 6% damage which you really can't notice anyway.

People need to try something other then charging into the biggest group they see, then stand there scratching themselves. High risk, high reward. That means you are more likely to die, but the benefit is a fast, furiously and fun battle if you succeed. That make you look near godlike in your power to quickly destroy a host of enemies.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 04 février 2010 - 11:16 .

[Gregorus Prime]

Charge can be easily fixed with a patch that does two things:

1) Makes it more powerful, either by increasing damage or reducing cooldown or increasing shield strength or preferably some degree of each
2) Lets you charge to any damn point on the field, regardless of if there is an enemy or not and then balances this by imposing limits on charge distance.

There'd be more work involved in accomplishing the second goal, as they'd have to rework targeting on it and work out a simple control scheme for filtering through cover points and such but it would be the more important goal in terms of making Charge useful. Believe me, I love Charge, which is why I want to use it more often. It's also one of those little abilities that would be so fun to just spam all over the place while you're walking around for the stupid fun of it.

Please, devs, FIX CHARGE!

There's nothing broken with charge, there's nothing broken or underpowered with shotguns.
Anyone saying differently, really have no clue.

I definitely disagree with you on that one. Both the Carnifex and the Katana need to have at least twice as much spare ammo to be reasonable. It's ridiculous that I can carry ten universal thermal clips for my SMG but only two for the shotgun to begin with, but can you at least bump that up a bit? And do something with the Vindicator, too.

Modifié par Gregorus Prime, 04 février 2010 - 11:23 .

[Kronner]

Dannok1234 wrote...

Looks like a lot of people really don't understand how charge can work for you, and many can't get it working at all for whatever reason that might be.
I find this completely baffling as it seems so easy. I've played several classes now, but haven't finished yet, as the combat compared to a vanguard is slow and boring. Most of the time you have to hide behind cover to shoot or use abilities.

Charge let's you dictate the pace of the engagement, it lets you finish fights far far faster then with pretty much anyone else. Ever notice that if you move forward rapidly far fewer enemies spawn?

Well with a vanguard playing on insanity, you can pretty much charge every single enemy and clear a room of 6-8 guys in 20-30 seconds with ease!
Those that say you cannot charge into groups on anything higher then normal, are plain and simply wrong. If I and others can do this, then anyone can do it. It's that simple. There's nothing broken with charge, there's nothing broken or underpowered with shotguns.
Anyone saying differently, really have no clue.

However, the margin for error, when you charge a group of 3 enemies all with full shields intact, becomes very very small. Sometimes you are operating away from cover etc and you have to make every shot count. You need Inferno rounds and heavy charge to replenish your shields fully, (Area doesn't work on shielded enemies anyway)and personally I find the 0.4 second faster recharge of charging with Champion to be of much greater use then 6% damage which you really can't notice anyway.

People need to try something other then charging into the biggest group they see, then stand there scratching themselves. High risk, high reward. That means you are more likely to die, but the benefit is a fast, furiously and fun battle if you succeed. That make you look near godlike in your power to quickly destroy a host of enemies.

Pretty much. I just completed the game as Sentinel and it was easy, though Soldier is still the easiest to play imho,  (on Insanity) but boring compared to Vanguard imho. I just used tech armour + warp and reave and overload. I couldn't die unless I tried really hard.
With Vanguard it is a lot more fun, I die more often but it's worth it.

[_Dannok1234]

Thought of a couple of other pointers.

Don't start insanity as a vanguard with level 30 ng+. It will be much much harder and yes, then you'll have to be much more selective about what you charge as the enemy is stacked so heavily against you.



To get use out of charge earliest possible. Focus on the skills you need. class skill, Inferno ammo and charge. The rest can wait. I didn't get pull until level 30.



Barrier will not give you any significant boost to survival during a charge. But is useful when you cannot charge to replenish your shield. (or perhaps it's just my game thats bugged that way)

I also find it a lot easier to use the Scimitar auto shotgun rather then the krogan, but thats probably more of a personal thing.

[Skemte]

Kwonnern wrote...

If you ask me, i would've liked Melee-combat to be much more deadly than it is (yes, i know there are melee-upgrades) maybe even implementing Melee-weapons such as Vibroblades and such.

That would work very well in Synergy with Vanguards Charge imo!

  
  I actually meleed alot with my vanguard when reloading on my claymore, it became real powerful half way in.

[OrionUnas]

I used this from an ME1 import, changed her class to Vanguard because I wanted to try it, I mean getting shot to hell from those Vanguards in game was annoying, so I thought I could do it to them. Let me tell you, on insane it can make or break you.



I used the skill on the YMIR Mech, and it did nothing. I got a rocket to the face, and died. Well, I tried it when he had no health, and to my surprise, it fainted him, much like every other biotic power. I was happy there Take that YMIR mech, who was made by Aesir... i mean Asari... whatever.



But, if I attempt to use the power in a crowed.. I'm as good as dead. I actually had to quit the Vanguard on insanity, and go to my lvl 26 soldier, and play again. I was stuck on the Archangel mission. It sucks, I didn't have a sniper rifle with me. I have a shotgun... no use to me against long distance targets... and Krogen WITH full armour... and me with crappy sheilds that depleate in one hit. Great choice huh? Right before I got to the objective Krogen and Varel (the dogs, i forget proper spelling, sorry ME universe)... well, lets just say vanguard got raped!

[kelsjet]

Catlana wrote...
However, if you want to try something a little different. The other classes are fun because you have a variety of other abilities to use.

I believe this is the very thing that the vast majority of people both in this thread and in that 40+ "adepts are useless" thread are talking about.
The fact that the "variety of other abilities" that are meant to make the game "a little different" when playing as other classes are actually, for all intents and purposes, utterly useless. And that the game itself has been set up to only really be played as a Soldier, Infiltrator and if you want to push the envelope, the Sentinel.

[sinosleep]

Nope Sentinel doesn't count, sniper rifle is the easiest and quickest way to destroy everything, therefore playing any other way is stupid.

[Chillwill]

Charge is awesome, stop whining and reroll.

[Jamin101]

I also have found charge as more of a "finisher" ala wwe then a real move. i was also dissapointed powers could only be used on health because it was either more efficient to shoot it twice or my team would finish them off before my power got there.



**spoiler**





after being able to choose a training on the derelict ship i choose assualt rifle training and its a completely different game. id say 300% easier/funner (not that easy makes a game fun, i like challenges). i can burst guys and can now use my powers instantly, shockwave and pull actually have meaning now, plus its funner to shoot an ar over a pistol

[matt654321]

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

[Inarai]

matt654321 wrote...

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

That's not true, at LEAST up veteran.  It is a power, and overall a class, requiring skill and tactics and planning, not simple "Do this until you win".  It's a high-risk class, you have to be able to deal with that risk to play it well.

[this isnt my name]

I am on veteran and use it, but mostly on lone enemies, or ones I need to take out quick e.g special enemy boss get close with shotgun and kill as he is a big threat, other than that useless as most battles are won when it is safe to use, its just for looks and if te difficulty was higher I would be dead.

[matt654321]

Inarai wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

That's not true, at LEAST up veteran.  It is a power, and overall a class, requiring skill and tactics and planning, not simple "Do this until you win".  It's a high-risk class, you have to be able to deal with that risk to play it well.

It has some mild use on veteran, but it's nowhere near 'useful.' Your special move is supposed to be advantageous for you - most of the time, charge puts you in a severely disadvantageous situation. No power is a win button, I know, but this power is just plain bad. I love vanguards, but if you can't see this, then you're in denial.

[sinosleep]

Or people just disagree. I play on insanity and think it works fine.

[Inarai]

matt654321 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

That's not true, at LEAST up veteran.  It is a power, and overall a class, requiring skill and tactics and planning, not simple "Do this until you win".  It's a high-risk class, you have to be able to deal with that risk to play it well.

It has some mild use on veteran, but it's nowhere near 'useful.' Your special move is supposed to be advantageous for you - most of the time, charge puts you in a severely disadvantageous situation. No power is a win button, I know, but this power is just plain bad. I love vanguards, but if you can't see this, then you're in denial.

Yes, if you're really stupid about using it, it will get you killed.  So don't be really stupid about using it.  Take advantage of, for example, enemy positioning and cover, freeze effects from Cryo ammo, stagger effects from melee attacks...  Etc, etc, etc.  It is incredibly useful, if you know how to use it.  It takes more skill to deploy effectively than, say, Tech Armour, Adrenaline Rush, Singularity, Combat Drone, or Invisibility - which is also true of the class, and is frankly part of the fun.

[allankles]

Vanguard was the most fun class to play. It's an all action style. Charge is pretty damn useful when you max it past the second level.

[matt654321]

Inarai wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Inarai wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

That's not true, at LEAST up veteran.  It is a power, and overall a class, requiring skill and tactics and planning, not simple "Do this until you win".  It's a high-risk class, you have to be able to deal with that risk to play it well.

It has some mild use on veteran, but it's nowhere near 'useful.' Your special move is supposed to be advantageous for you - most of the time, charge puts you in a severely disadvantageous situation. No power is a win button, I know, but this power is just plain bad. I love vanguards, but if you can't see this, then you're in denial.

Yes, if you're really stupid about using it, it will get you killed.  So don't be really stupid about using it.  Take advantage of, for example, enemy positioning and cover, freeze effects from Cryo ammo, stagger effects from melee attacks...  Etc, etc, etc.  It is incredibly useful, if you know how to use it.  It takes more skill to deploy effectively than, say, Tech Armour, Adrenaline Rush, Singularity, Combat Drone, or Invisibility - which is also true of the class, and is frankly part of the fun.

Its not just if you're stupid about it. It's extremely limited in usage. It's not 'more skillful' - even when you use it properly it doesn't provide much benefit. It simply isn't good.

[sinosleep]

Inarai wrote..

Yes, if you're really stupid about using it, it will get you killed.  So don't be really stupid about using it.  Take advantage of, for example, enemy positioning and cover, freeze effects from Cryo ammo, stagger effects from melee attacks...  Etc, etc, etc.  It is incredibly useful, if you know how to use it.  It takes more skill to deploy effectively than, say, Tech Armour, Adrenaline Rush, Singularity, Combat Drone, or Invisibility - which is also true of the class, and is frankly part of the fun.

Nothing we type here is going to sink in. If you use your team mates at all people here will say they did ALL the work (even though it's a squad based game, using your squad to full effect is somehow looked down upon) even if any blind muppet could see otherwise. If you say use it on guys behind cover they say you could snipe them just as easily. They scream the shotgun sucks even if THE LOWEST LEVEL SHOTGUN IN THE GAME TWO SHOTS FULLY ARMORED/SHIELDED non-elites/krogan. Charge serves one purpose, get you into shotgun range, at which you point you can two shot or one shot/melee the vast majority of mobs in game. Does it serve that purpose better than simply running out of cover and storming targets? Yes. End. Of. Thread.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 01:25 .

[matt654321]

sinosleep wrote...

Inarai wrote..

Yes, if you're really stupid about using it, it will get you killed.  So don't be really stupid about using it.  Take advantage of, for example, enemy positioning and cover, freeze effects from Cryo ammo, stagger effects from melee attacks...  Etc, etc, etc.  It is incredibly useful, if you know how to use it.  It takes more skill to deploy effectively than, say, Tech Armour, Adrenaline Rush, Singularity, Combat Drone, or Invisibility - which is also true of the class, and is frankly part of the fun.

Nothing we type here is going to sink in. If you use your team mates at all people here will say they did ALL the work (even though it's a squad based game, using your squad to full effect is somehow looked down upon) even if any blind muppet could see otherwise. If you say use it on guys behind cover they say you could snipe them just as easily. They scream the shotgun sucks even if THE LOWEST LEVEL SHOTGUN IN THE GAME TWO SHOTS FULLY ARMORED/SHIELDED non-elites/krogan. Charge serves one purpose, get you into shotgun range, at which you point you can two shot or one shot/melee the vast majority of mobs in game. Does it serve that purpose better than simply running out of cover and storming targets? Yes. End. Of. Thread.

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

Charge is bad - for people calling the OP bad and using it wrong, you clearly haven't tried using it on any difficulty above easy. The only times when it's safe to charge are the times where you've pretty much won already anyway, or if there's a lone enemy off somewhere with his thumb in his rear. Its uses are extremely limited, much more so than any other class-unique skill.

I beat the game on Veteran with the vanguard and used charge  liberally used on the second half of the game for the my first playthrough.. Hardcore I have noticed no difference either..   In the beginning your extremely fragile, but once you get 33 to 40% in the game you are durable enough especially with barrier skill..    I have also been having success with it in hardcore difficulty.. I love using heavy charge, and claymore..  Charge in, goes slow mo, headshot them with the ridiculously powerful shotgun.

[sinosleep]

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 01:34 .