252 réponses à ce sujet

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

Inarai wrote..

Yes, if you're really stupid about using it, it will get you killed.  So don't be really stupid about using it.  Take advantage of, for example, enemy positioning and cover, freeze effects from Cryo ammo, stagger effects from melee attacks...  Etc, etc, etc.  It is incredibly useful, if you know how to use it.  It takes more skill to deploy effectively than, say, Tech Armour, Adrenaline Rush, Singularity, Combat Drone, or Invisibility - which is also true of the class, and is frankly part of the fun.

Nothing we type here is going to sink in. If you use your team mates at all people here will say they did ALL the work (even though it's a squad based game, using your squad to full effect is somehow looked down upon) even if any blind muppet could see otherwise. If you say use it on guys behind cover they say you could snipe them just as easily. They scream the shotgun sucks even if THE LOWEST LEVEL SHOTGUN IN THE GAME TWO SHOTS FULLY ARMORED/SHIELDED non-elites/krogan. Charge serves one purpose, get you into shotgun range, at which you point you can two shot or one shot/melee the vast majority of mobs in game. Does it serve that purpose better than simply running out of cover and storming targets? Yes. End. Of. Thread.

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

  Except Vanguard with Champion later on literally has a recharge rate of 2 seconds, add in it full shields you up and you can take on quite a bit of guys..  I used incidenary ammo, Maxed 100% shield barrier, heavy charge, and champion..   Charge does not suck, its just not that viable in the very beginning of the game due to being fragile in the beginning.. But with upgrades, barrier, and improved charge..

[matt654321]

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

Or, if you've already used your squad to strip their defenses, you could just shoot them with your pistol.

'Charge is a great kill power, but only if you've already almost killed them.'

[Skemte]

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

  Not to mention enemies are next to cover most times, so you can pop under cover if your taking heavy fire afterwards..  Rarely did I ever die later in the game with charge inless I did something incredibly stupid or became too bold..

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

Or, if you've already used your squad to strip their defenses, you could just shoot them with your pistol.

'Charge is a great kill power, but only if you've already almost killed them.'

  False with claymore you can kill most guys with charging in and shooting them int he head iwth the slowmo..  If they are not dead they are close to dead with the fire damage, or you can melee them down the second after..   just don't be an idiot and charge guys with 2 lines of defense before their health, wait till at least one line is down which is easy enough..

[matt654321]

Skemte wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

  Not to mention enemies are next to cover most times, so you can pop under cover if your taking heavy fire afterwards..  Rarely did I ever die later in the game with charge inless I did something incredibly stupid or became too bold..

On what difficulty, normal? Anyone can beat that - it isn't hard at all. On hardcore or insanity, if you do that you'll be ripped to shreds in seconds, even with stacking barrier and heavy charge.

[RamsenC]

I played a charge focused Vanguard on insanity and it worked fine. You just have to charge the right enemy at the right moment. Also use the radar, it probably helps Vanguard more than any other class. I do wish you could charge at a targeted location rather than just an enemy though. One thing I will say is shotguns are garbage, you are better off using the Hand Cannon and Vindicator at close range.

Unless of course you get my shotgun rebalance mod

http://social.biowar...926437/1#980885

[sinosleep]

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

Or, if you've already used your squad to strip their defenses, you could just shoot them with your pistol.

'Charge is a great kill power, but only if you've already almost killed them.'

SHOTGUN TWO SHOTS EVERYTHING. CHARGE PUTS YOU IN SHOTGUN RANGE. THEY ARE NOT ALMOST DEAD WHEN YOU TWO SHOT THEM. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around? I didn't say squat about having your squad strip them before charging in. I mentioned having your squad help you with the rest of the group.

I mean goddamn, is every soldier ability AOE? Cause if not I guess they ****ing suck cause they kill one enemy at a time, like a vanguard does.

[Skemte]

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

Or, if you've already used your squad to strip their defenses, you could just shoot them with your pistol.

'Charge is a great kill power, but only if you've already almost killed them.'

SHOTGUN TWO SHOTS EVERYTHING. CHARGE PUTS YOU IN SHOTGUN RANGE. THEY ARE NOT ALMOST DEAD WHEN YOU TWO SHOT THEM. Why is that so hard for you to wrap your head around? I didn't say squat about having your squad strip them before charging in. I mentioned having your squad help you with the rest of the group.

I mean goddamn, is every soldier ability AOE? Cause if not I guess they ****ing suck cause they kill one enemy at a time, like a vanguard does.

I think the problem is not charge, but the fact that the first two shotguns are pathetically weak and you will put out way more damage using the SMG with incidary ammo..  This compeltely changes once you get claymore, but yeah if there is a problem its the shotguns fault, not the charge abilitiy.

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

Skemte wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

By the time you two shot that enemy, you'll be killed by the other two enemies next to him. If you used it on a single enemy, then you didn't do much anyway.

Not if you bother to use your squad every once in a while. If you charge a group of 3, 2 shot the one, warp/pull another, 2 shot the other you'd be just fine. I know, I've done it. Or if you are going to charge a group charge one near cover. Charge, 2 shot, jump over cover, 2 shot the next guy, use squad powers on the 3rd, etc, etc etc.

p.s. One dead enemy is one dead enemy is one dead enemy. Unless you're only talking about aoe and nothing else then that little remark doesn't mean squat.

  Not to mention enemies are next to cover most times, so you can pop under cover if your taking heavy fire afterwards..  Rarely did I ever die later in the game with charge inless I did something incredibly stupid or became too bold..

On what difficulty, normal? Anyone can beat that - it isn't hard at all. On hardcore or insanity, if you do that you'll be ripped to shreds in seconds, even with stacking barrier and heavy charge.

  I beat the game easilly on Veteran, and I am playing through Hardcore with not much problem in using the ability.. Your conclusions are false.

[sinosleep]

Skemte wrote...

I think the problem is not charge, but the fact that the first two shotguns are pathetically weak and you will put out way more damage using the SMG with incidary ammo..  This compeltely changes once you get claymore, but yeah if there is a problem its the shotguns fault, not the charge abilitiy.

In the video I posted in this very thread I two shotted fully armored enemies with the very shotgun you say is so weak. I also shot and meleed to death fully armored enemies with the same shotgun on INSANITY. There's nothing wrong even with the low level shotgun.

[Mordigan]

Some people just suck. Thats all there is to it..



Trying to convince them that charge can be used effectively at all difficulty levels is a waste of time and breath..

[Skemte]

sinosleep wrote...

Skemte wrote...

I think the problem is not charge, but the fact that the first two shotguns are pathetically weak and you will put out way more damage using the SMG with incidary ammo..  This compeltely changes once you get claymore, but yeah if there is a problem its the shotguns fault, not the charge abilitiy.

In the video I posted in this very thread I two shotted fully armored enemies with the very shotgun you say is so weak. I also shot and meleed to death fully armored enemies with the same shotgun on INSANITY. There's nothing wrong even with the low level shotgun.

... Yet the heavy pistol as shown in the shtogun mod thread to be more powerful..  It infact puts out the lowest amount of damage over time then any other weapon type for these two shotguns.. Furthermore this doesn't help when the shotgun spreads are so wide for the first two, the claymore to me felt more accurate.

[RamsenC]

When people say shotguns are weak they mean relative to the other guns. Why use a shotgun when an AR and a pistol are better at CLOSE range. This is the niche the shotguns are supposed to fill. If they don't theres no point to using them. Not saying you cant do well with the default shotguns because this game is simply not that hard, even on insanity, but they are still the worst weapon type by far.

[sinosleep]

OMG, christ how long does it take to get off two shots? Seriously. Or two shots and melee? How long? It's ****ing no time. Unless pistols one shot fully armored/shielded enemies (which, I know they don't) then charge + shotgun is better than charge + pistol.

[Skemte]

sinosleep wrote...

OMG, christ how long does it take to get off two shots? Seriously. Or two shots and melee? How long? It's ****ing no time. Unless pistols one shot fully armored/shielded enemies (which, I know they don't) then charge + shotgun is better than charge + pistol.

.. We just pointed out that the first two shotguns put out less damage over time not just one shot but multiple shots then the other weapons.. The first two shotguns are the weakest weapons in the game, you will do more damage with using a smg or assault rifle instead.. Now the claymore the shotgun becomes real good..

[sinosleep]

Skemte wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

OMG, christ how long does it take to get off two shots? Seriously. Or two shots and melee? How long? It's ****ing no time. Unless pistols one shot fully armored/shielded enemies (which, I know they don't) then charge + shotgun is better than charge + pistol.

.. We just pointed out that the first two shotguns put out less damage over time not just one shot but multiple shots then the other weapons.. The first two shotguns are the weakest weapons in the game, you will do more damage with using a smg or assault rifle instead.. Now the claymore the shotgun becomes real good..

How long is the time requirement for for the pistol to start outdoing the shotgun? This is why I ask. I've beaten the game on hardcore. I am currently playing on insanity. I had the claymore shotgun. You know how many shots it took to kill a fully armored enemy? TWO. I am currently using the katana shotgun. You know how many shots it takes to kill a fully armored enemy? TWO.

What does that tell you?

Why would I care if the pistol out does the shotgun after 3 shots, if it only take 2 to kill any given enemy? That's where the stats become moot and common sense takes over.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 01:57 .

[Mordigan]

Skemte wrote...

I think the problem is not charge, but the fact that the first two shotguns are pathetically weak and you will put out way more damage using the SMG with incidary ammo..  This compeltely changes once you get claymore, but yeah if there is a problem its the shotguns fault, not the charge abilitiy.

I didn't find either the Katana or the Scimitar weak at all, especially if you can pull off head shots.

Shotty does much more damage up close than the SMG or heavy pistol because all of the pellets hit home at the same time, inflicting a lot of damage.

The only time shotguns suck is when one or two pellets hit the target instead of all of them, and that means you're playing it out of range..

[Murmillos]

I got back playing my Vanguard. Indeed the opening levels suck arse. At the start charge is a quick way to visit the reload screen - or end the fight in a flashy finish.



You almost have to play the start of the game as a gimped soldier/adept. But as you start to level up and get the nice armor bonus and enough to make charge and its cool down hard hitting and available every other second - its like you are dancing around more then shooting. Again you still have to plan your attacks much like any of the other classes - but at least Charge no longer is the quickest way to get to the reload screen.

[Skemte]

sinosleep wrote...

Skemte wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

OMG, christ how long does it take to get off two shots? Seriously. Or two shots and melee? How long? It's ****ing no time. Unless pistols one shot fully armored/shielded enemies (which, I know they don't) then charge + shotgun is better than charge + pistol.

.. We just pointed out that the first two shotguns put out less damage over time not just one shot but multiple shots then the other weapons.. The first two shotguns are the weakest weapons in the game, you will do more damage with using a smg or assault rifle instead.. Now the claymore the shotgun becomes real good..

How long is the time requirement for for the pistol to start outdoing the shotgun? This is why I ask. I've beaten the game on hardcore. I am currently playing on insanity. I had the claymore shotgun. You know how many shots it took to kill a fully armored enemy? TWO. I am currently using the katana shotgun. You know how many shots it takes to kill a fully armored enemy? TWO.

What does that tell you?

  read the shotgun mod thread..  A vindicator burst does more damage then a shotgun spread for the first two, thats just hopeing that all the pellets hit the guy.. That is all.

[RamsenC]

No offense but it doesn't sound like you guys have analyzed the guns much at all. I don't blame you, since thats not fun for most people, but I got a kick out of it.



I don't feel like bringing a bunch of math into this thread since I don't have the time, but I'll explain the Vindicator at least.



Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.



It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

[matt654321]

RamsenC wrote...

No offense but it doesn't sound like you guys have analyzed the guns much at all. I don't blame you, since thats not fun for most people, but I got a kick out of it.

I don't feel like bringing a bunch of math into this thread since I don't have the time, but I'll explain the Vindicator at least.

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

They can't. All the can do is say 'we used vanguards on insanity therefore they're balanced.' They don't know how to compare one option to the others in the game.

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

No offense but it doesn't sound like you guys have analyzed the guns much at all. I don't blame you, since thats not fun for most people, but I got a kick out of it.

I don't feel like bringing a bunch of math into this thread since I don't have the time, but I'll explain the Vindicator at least.

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

They can't. All the can do is say 'we used vanguards on insanity therefore they're balanced.' They don't know how to compare one option to the others in the game.

  I don't see how this has anything to do with your argument of charge being bad when it isn't....   Just that shotguns are lacking, that doesn't stop you from using Assault rifles or smg....

[sinosleep]

That's not what I'm getting at people. What I'm getting at is that due to the small number of shots required to kill things in the game, then the dps charts don't mean much for most of the mobs. If you do 300 damage over 3 seconds (100 dps)and I do 100 burst damage in 1 second (dps is crap due to reload or whatever)  and the mob only has 100 health, guess at who kills the mob quickest? Oh wait, its a tie. THAT'S what I'm getting at. Even the crappiest shotgun in the game TWO SHOTS MOST MOBS fully armored and shielded. The dps isn't going to matter at that point.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 02:16 .

[matt654321]

Skemte wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

No offense but it doesn't sound like you guys have analyzed the guns much at all. I don't blame you, since thats not fun for most people, but I got a kick out of it.

I don't feel like bringing a bunch of math into this thread since I don't have the time, but I'll explain the Vindicator at least.

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

They can't. All the can do is say 'we used vanguards on insanity therefore they're balanced.' They don't know how to compare one option to the others in the game.

  I don't see how this has anything to do with your argument of charge being bad when it isn't....   Just that shotguns are lacking, that doesn't stop you from using Assault rifles or smg....

It emphasizes my point that pro-chargers can't compare options within the game. They also argued that shotguns are fine when they clearly aren't, demonstrated by clear mathematical evidence. Sure, you can 2-shot a random mook with a shotgun, but you can do it better with most other weapons.

Sure, there are times when charge won't get you killed, and there are times when it's mildly advantageous. However, that doesn't mean it's good, especially compared to everyone else's unique skills which are generally highly beneficial.

[Skemte]

matt654321 wrote...

Skemte wrote...

matt654321 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

No offense but it doesn't sound like you guys have analyzed the guns much at all. I don't blame you, since thats not fun for most people, but I got a kick out of it.

I don't feel like bringing a bunch of math into this thread since I don't have the time, but I'll explain the Vindicator at least.

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

They can't. All the can do is say 'we used vanguards on insanity therefore they're balanced.' They don't know how to compare one option to the others in the game.

  I don't see how this has anything to do with your argument of charge being bad when it isn't....   Just that shotguns are lacking, that doesn't stop you from using Assault rifles or smg....

It emphasizes my point that pro-chargers can't compare options within the game. They also argued that shotguns are fine when they clearly aren't, demonstrated by clear mathematical evidence. Sure, you can 2-shot a random mook with a shotgun, but you can do it better with most other weapons.

Sure, there are times when charge won't get you killed, and there are times when it's mildly advantageous. However, that doesn't mean it's good, especially compared to everyone else's unique skills which are generally highly beneficial.

  Well the first two shotguns are lacking.. The Claymore on the other hand clearly isn't even if it only has one round per clip.. It has high pentration, high damage, and seems to be more accurate then the other two shotguns at medium distances.... Furthermore using something like assault rifle or SMG in charge is just as beneficial as well..  Just make sure you use heavy charge which gives you slomo at the end.