252 réponses à ce sujet

[Odd Hermit]

Charge is useable, and fun enough to use that you'll do it even when it's not necessary. However the problem is that charge is rarely the ideal ability to use.

Once I got reave, charge became almost obsolete.

I think it definitely needs a longer barrier + time slowdown on it to be of any real use.

Another problem is that a lot of the time closing gaps isn't what you want to do in this game, there aren't a lot of enemies that you're better off closing into melee range on than picking off from range even when you're playing the most close range focused class.

[RamsenC]

sinosleep wrote...



That's not what I'm getting at people. What I'm getting at is that due to the small number of shots required to kill things in the game, then the dps charts don't mean much for most of the mobs. If you do 300 damage over 3 seconds (100 dps)and I do 100 burst damage in 1 second (dps is crap due to reload or whatever) and the mob only has 100 health, guess at who kills the mob quickest? Oh wait, its a tie. THAT'S what I'm getting at. Even the crappiest shotgun in the game TWO SHOTS MOST MOBS fully armored and shielded. The dps isn't going to matter at that point.

I don't think you understand. I'm not talking about DPS, Vindicator does more burst damage than the first two shotguns. The Vindicator is the burst rifle, thats why its easier to compare to the shotguns. I'm not comparing them to a full auto rifle. Claymore has the Vindicator beat on burst damage, but getting that second shot with the Vindicator is very easy. Claymore should be much better since its supposed to be the ultimate shotgun and you give up another weapon spec for it. Also Claymore does not have good armor penetration, none of the shotguns do.



On a side note I love charge and vanguard. I'm not anti-charge, I just think the shotguns suck.

[sinosleep]

For not having any armor penetration they sure do seem to eat up armor.

[Mordigan]

RamsenC wrote...

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

The Vindicator is an upgrade weapon for the Vanguard, and not a class weapon so why wouldn't it do more damage than the Katana and the Scimitar?

Case in point, the Vindicator is good all round for shields, barriers and armor, whilst the Katana and Scimitar works best on shields and barriers, but not armor.

The Claymore is the next step on the shotgun evolution, and the Claymore just rapes the Vindicator from my experience.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

I've played around with both the Vindicator and the Claymore, and I killed enemies much faster with the Claymore than with the Vindicator.  Sure, the Vindicator is "safer," because it has great ranged attack, but up close, nothing beats the Claymore.

The Claymore can kill all but the toughest enemies in only 2 shots.....or one shot followed by a melee.

[Kwonnern]

How great it would be if Biotic Charge had it's own independent cooldown.

[sinosleep]

Short and sweet, I love charge.



Even if it glitched on me at the end.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 03:18 .

[Mordigan]

Kwonnern wrote...

How great it would be if Biotic Charge had it's own independent cooldown.

The Vanguard would probably be overpowered then.

I prefer it the way it is, as you're forced to rely on your weapon skills a lot.

[RamsenC]

Mordigan wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

Vindicator does 111 damage in a burst. The katana does 100 and the Scimitar does 81. They both get the double damage boost for being in melee range so that evens out. I'll ignore upgrades since those are optional. On top of the Vindicator doing MORE damage it also fires around the same speed as the Scimitar. On top of all this it has all the benefits of an AR.

The Vindicator is an upgrade weapon for the Vanguard, and not a class weapon so why wouldn't it do more damage than the Katana and the Scimitar?

Case in point, the Vindicator is good all round for shields, barriers and armor, whilst the Katana and Scimitar works best on shields and barriers, but not armor.

The Claymore is the next step on the shotgun evolution, and the Claymore just rapes the Vindicator from my experience.

It will also do more damage than a Claymore after just two bursts, which fire off pretty quickly. If you can make me understand how this is ok please do.

I've played around with both the Vindicator and the Claymore, and I killed enemies much faster with the Claymore than with the Vindicator.  Sure, the Vindicator is "safer," because it has great ranged attack, but up close, nothing beats the Claymore.

The Claymore can kill all but the toughest enemies in only 2 shots.....or one shot followed by a melee.

The Vindicator is an AR that any class can get, the Claymore is a supposed to be a shotgun that only soldier and vanguard have access too. The Scimitar and Vindicator are both upgrades over the default weapons and should be comparable. 

Also if you are taking two shots with the Claymore you might be screwed since theres a 1.5 second delay between shots. My point is an AR should not compare this closely to whats supposed to be the dominant close range weapon. The Vindicator will do 111 damage around every 0.6s, while the Claymore will do 200 damage every 1.5s. Its not like I'm comparing the Revenant at close range to the Claymore, because then the Claymore loses by even more. The Vindicator is just a standard AR that every class can get.

Modifié par RamsenC, 05 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[Soruyao]

sinosleep wrote...

Short and sweet, I love charge.



Even if it glitched on me at the end.

That was fun to watch   Talk about roflstompage.

I'm still kind of new at the whole vanguard thing, so starting on insanity has gotten me killed a fair amount, but it's a lot of fun when it works.

I just want to add though that I got stuck in a table on my third charge.  It made me smile because everyone said it wouldn't happen.  Hehe.

Modifié par Soruyao, 05 février 2010 - 06:11 .

[Rykef]

This is a joke right? Charge + shotgun, you charge into them use your period of invulnerability to unload a shotgun blast into their face then move to cover.



When you near the end game you can charge kill then charge again keeping your shield more or less at max, Heck charge even got me out of tertian death situations.



It obviously isn't meant for you to charge headlong into an army and take them down single handedly but if you watch the battlefield and aim for enemy's at the edge you can hit them, kill them and then flank your enemy whilst your team keeps them pinned down

[RamsenC]

One more thing

Theres a reason no classes pick shotguns as their extra weapon specialization. In general no sentinels pick shotguns despite being able to survive close range better than anyone, no Infiltrators try cloak shotgunning, and how many soldiers pick the Claymore over the other two choices without regretting it.

Its because shotguns are the weakest weapon choice. If they were truly the best close range weapon there would be much more variety in the choices people make.

Modifié par RamsenC, 05 février 2010 - 06:13 .

[Mordigan]

RamsenC wrote...

The Vindicator is an AR that any class can get, the Claymore is a supposed to be a shotgun that only soldier and vanguard have access too. The Scimitar and Vindicator are both upgrades over the default weapons and should be comparable. 

The Vindicator is an AR that any class can get, but it's not a weapon that all classes have access to from the beginning. 

The Soldier is the only class that can use the Vindicator before the Collector Ship mission, because the Soldier is the only class that has in built AR training.

All the other classes have to wait till the Collector ship mission to get access to that weapon.

Also if you are taking two shots with the Claymore you might be screwed since theres a 1.5 second delay between shots.

You can easily get around this by using melee after firing the first shot.  Also, the power of the blast causes the enemy to stagger or if you're using inferno rounds, to catch on fire (sometimes)....which buys you time.

It takes a while to get used to the slower rhythym of the Claymore, but once you do, you'll find that you can kick a lot of ass..

My point is an AR should not compare this closely to whats supposed to be the dominant close range weapon. The Vindicator will do 111 damage around every 0.6s, while the Claymore will do 200 damage every 1.5s. Its not like I'm comparing the Revenant at close range to the Claymore, because then the Claymore loses by even more. The Vindicator is just a standard AR that every class can get.

Well I haven't tested the Revenant yet, but I think you're stuck on numbers a bit much.

From my actual play testing, the Claymore is definitely a superior weapon in close quarters compared to the Vindicator.   Others will attest to this as well.. 

One other factor that has an impact on how fast you can kill an enemy is "penetration." 

Throughout play testing, I noticed that the Claymore will often destroy all shields and armor (and take off a significant amount of health) on a target at point blank range IN ONE SHOT, suggesting that the Claymore has exceptional penetration.

The Vindicator on the other hand, requires a lot more trigger pulling to blast through the shields and armors of your target..

In the end, with the Claymore, you end up killing your enemy much faster than with the Vindicator......from my experience of course.

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 février 2010 - 06:32 .

[Mordigan]

RamsenC wrote...

One more thing

Theres a reason no classes pick shotguns as their extra weapon specialization. In general no sentinels pick shotguns despite being able to survive close range better than anyone, no Infiltrators try cloak shotgunning, and how many soldiers pick the Claymore over the other two choices without regretting it..

You're oversimplifying a bit..

While the Sentinel can absorb more damage than any class, it doesn't mean that it's good at close quarter fighting, or even suited for it.

The most dangerous part of close quarter combat, is getting to your target.  You have to move through the field of battle, which exposes you to gun fire and attacks from multiple enemies. 

The Sentinel would have his tech armor obliterated before he could blink if he tried to "charge" his enemies like a Vanguard..

Charge on the other hand, allows you to navigate through the field of battle without having to worry about getting hit by anything.  While you're charging, you're effectively invincible.

It's after charging that you become vulnerable.

With this in mind, it doesn't make much sense for any class but Vanguard to specialize in the Claymore.....not even the soldier.

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 février 2010 - 06:29 .

[darksider55]

So, if you followed the instructions on how to use a weapon, and it malfunctions, you will blame the person who is firing the weapon?

I guess you also blamed Haitians for the earthquake, and probably blamed the jews for the holocost. You are a sick bastard.

[/quote

Now was that comment really necessary...

I'm a vanguard and i luv the class,but i have to agree with the dude who started this thread charge is a little weak as a Signature move. and yes i learned how to use the ability to my advantage.But if you compare it to all the other classes signature move it's pretty weak..honestly

[_Dannok1234]

RamsenC wrote...

One more thing

Theres a reason no classes pick shotguns as their extra weapon specialization. In general no sentinels pick shotguns despite being able to survive close range better than anyone, no Infiltrators try cloak shotgunning, and how many soldiers pick the Claymore over the other two choices without regretting it.

Its because shotguns are the weakest weapon choice. If they were truly the best close range weapon there would be much more variety in the choices people make.

You need to get over this spiel about shotguns being weakest. I usually do pick the vindicator as a vanguard as I like it vs single enemies and it gives a good ranged alternative. The the shotgun doesn't need to be the highest dps weapon, the key is that it staggers your enemies. Thats it, and for this it works wonders.

Not that I think you or anyone else will actually believe me, as so far my posts have been largely ignored, and by the way I do play other classes. I get that they are easier. You will die far more as a vanguard. There are so many things that can go wrong and really milliseconds do matter with vanguards. It's something you just have to accept. This however doesn't mean that charge is bad or shotguns don't work with vanguards. Just means you have to play without mistakes if you wish to die less.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 05 février 2010 - 06:47 .

[Mr. MannlyMan]

I don''t know what you people are smoking, but Charge is an invaluable flanking maneuver at the very least. I've been in countless situations where I was stuck in a tight spot under constant machine gun fire, and instantly turned a battle into a slaughter by charging an enemy and setting up a strategic machine-gun "nest" after clearing them out.



The best strategy you can have is evolving Charge into the version where you send out a shockwave on impact, and bringing along a teammate who has Area Overload. Jesus, combine that with a powerful shotgun and you can pretty much clear a group of mercs in seconds. Rinse, repeat, repeat.



I should probably mention that I pause with the right bumper after every charge, just to get my bearings before I decide who I should dispatch first.





Other than that, Charge is the only power that can dramatically change the shape of the battlefield within seconds; Shepard's the most powerful soldier in most of the battles you encounter, so you should always try to position him accordingly.

[RamsenC]

I completely disagree about your opinion on the Sentinel and yes I did play on insanity, but thats too far off topic anyways.

I noticed you can only say good things about the Claymore. Its obvious the other two shotguns suck completely. On top of that the Claymore is no shotgun equivalent to the Widow sniper. While the Claymore isn't terrible its not good enough for being the special shotgun of doom its supposed to be. The problem is once you have to take a second shot you are better off with almost any other weapon. Also I do test all the weapons in play, I'm only using numbers to prove my points since its factual, everything else is opinion.

Here are the shotgun changes I made that I feel should be in the game. Makes all the shotguns viable, but different. If I was stuck on the 360 version I would just accept how bad the shotguns are and use the Vindicator, but that goes against the spirit of the Vanguard, and now we can actually mod this game.

Old Katana 
Damage 110 
Mag/Max 5/10
Refire 1s

New Katana: Standard shotgun, high damage, slow fire rate, ammo efficient.
Damage 170
Mag/Max 5/20
Refire 1s
---------------------
Old Scimitar
Damage 81
Mag/Max 8/16
Refire 0.6s

New Scimitar: High rate of fire, good damage over time, lots of ammo.
Damage 80
Mag/Max 8/32
Refire 0.33s
---------------------
Old Claymore
Damage 200
Mag/Max 1/10
Refire N/A (1.5s reload time)

New Claymore: High burst damage. Fires 2 rounds in quick succession before needing to reload, but its still possible to fire one round if preferred. Best follow up to a biotic charge.
Damage 190
Mag/Max 2/20
Refire VERY FAST

[RamsenC]

Dannok1234 wrote...

RamsenC wrote...

One more thing

Theres a reason no classes pick shotguns as their extra weapon specialization. In general no sentinels pick shotguns despite being able to survive close range better than anyone, no Infiltrators try cloak shotgunning, and how many soldiers pick the Claymore over the other two choices without regretting it.

Its because shotguns are the weakest weapon choice. If they were truly the best close range weapon there would be much more variety in the choices people make.

You need to get over this spiel about shotguns being weakest. I usually do pick the vindicator as a vanguard as I like it vs single enemies and it gives a good ranged alternative. The the shotgun doesn't need to be the highest dps weapon, the key is that it staggers your enemies. Thats it, and for this it works wonders.

Not that I think you or anyone else will actually believe me, as so far my posts have been largely ignored, and by the way I do play other classes. I get that they are easier. You will die far more as a vanguard. There are so many things that can go wrong and really milliseconds do matter with vanguards. It's something you just have to accept. This however doesn't mean that charge is bad or shotguns don't work with vanguards. Just means you have to play without mistakes if you wish to die less.

My bad I have been ignoring you BUT you missed the part where I said Vanguard + Charge is awesome. Thats not my beef at all, its just how bad the shotguns are. Vanguard is my favorite class at the moment and I don't think it needs many changes if any. The problem is shotguns are not the best close range weapons and they should be. I could just play my Vindicator/Hand cannon Vanguard and do great, but thats just not the same.

[_Dannok1234]

Sorry RamenC, I did miss that. But those weapons just aren't as good with groups.Or at least I can't make them work as well.

Here's a short vid on insanity, using the scimitar shotgun. Used the unregistered fraps so the 30 second limitation made it a bit choppy. But should show the gist of it.



Char is level 23/24 I forget. Max inferno ammo, heavy charge, champion and area reave.

(The framerate was horrible while capturing, thats why I pause like crazy in this. But it does make it easier)
ps I tried to show that this was done "solo", I placed my squad out in the hall way so they would not interfere.

Modifié par Dannok1234, 05 février 2010 - 07:10 .

[RamsenC]

I find that maxed inferno ammo is a bigger help with groups then what weapon you pick. The Vindicator may be a little harder to use close range than the shotguns since you can't be off target and still do half damage, but with a mouse and kb that shouldn't be an issue.



I'm also not saying you can't do well with the shotguns, they just aren't optimal. My changes are not that overpowering either, some may not even notice them, but I feel they are better balanced this way. The Claymore changes are definitely noticeable though, I made that thing insane (as it should be).



If I get the ambition I might make a Vindicator Vanguard video.

[sinosleep]

RamsenC wrote...

I find that maxed inferno ammo is a bigger help with groups then what weapon you pick. The Vindicator may be a little harder to use close range than the shotguns since you can't be off target and still do half damage, but with a mouse and kb that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm also not saying you can't do well with the shotguns, they just aren't optimal. My changes are not that overpowering either, some may not even notice them, but I feel they are better balanced this way. The Claymore changes are definitely noticeable though, I made that thing insane (as it should be).

If I get the ambition I might make a Vindicator Vanguard video.

I'd KILL for you to do it. Just so we can compare, I take a vid you take a vid and let the forum decide what actually looks like it worked better in gameplay. Cause I personally prefer the shotguns, stats be damned. 2 shots is quick enough for me, particularly when I don't have to be very specific with the aim.

And like I've been saying, even though everyone other than me has been harping on the other shotguns, I just don't see where the problem is. I know the stats you posted, but here are the facts as I've backed up with video evidence

the katana 2 shots fully armored/shielded mobs barring elites/krogans
the claymore 2 shots fully armored/shielded mobs (2nd shot is overkill, but it still takes 2 shots) does better against elites/krogans

So is the katana REALLY that bad considering it's a starting weapon? NO. Hell, I actually like the katana more than the schimitar. What the schimitar does in 5 shots the katana will do in two.

p.s. Other stats I've noticed that apparantly don't matter is shield/armor/barrier penetration. The katana according to stats has bad penetration, and yet it will one shot off full shields/barriers/armor on standard mobs. That kind of stat only becomes noticible on elites.
p.p.s In case you missed it

by far the best video I've uploaded since I finally got the hang of playing essentially pause free. 2 shot everything unless I missed, which I think only happens once or twice.

Modifié par sinosleep, 05 février 2010 - 07:54 .

[RamsenC]

I'm actually trying to make a video right now but fraps slows down my game to less than 5fps. Anyone have a better program for this? It also doesn't help that I only get 30 seconds of footage with the unregistered version.

BTW the Katana and Claymore do fine damage per shot. The problem is how infrequent you can actually shoot. Thats why I kept the katana rate of fire, but increased the damage. I did the opposite for the Scimitar.

Modifié par RamsenC, 05 février 2010 - 08:27 .

[sinosleep]

Well you've seen my way of doing it, lol. I just turn my trusty built in laptop cam on my monitor and call it a day. It's not as clear as it could be, but there's no slow down and for the most part you can see what's going on.

[Soruyao]

All this talk of shotguns being terrible for any class has me kind of wanting to grab one for my adept. Singularity holds people in place for a good 6 seconds, and I'm pretty sure I could kill pretty much anything in that amount of time with one.



I'd die more because it's a terrible idea, but it's sooo tempting.

[Mordigan]

RamsenC wrote...

I completely disagree about your opinion on the Sentinel and yes I did play on insanity, but thats too far off topic anyways.

Hmmm, this I'd like to see..  Tech armor gives the same bonus to shields that heavy charge does, although the latter only lasts 4 seconds.

Still, even with a 100% boost to shields, you may as well be wearing paper if you're charging into battle at a snail's pace because you're going to be attracting all the aggro..

I noticed you can only say good things about the Claymore. Its obvious the other two shotguns suck completely.

Not really.  I'd think that Sinosleep's videos prove beyond a doubt that the other two shottys don't suck , and can still be used effectively all the way up to insanity difficulty.
 

On top of that the Claymore is no shotgun equivalent to the Widow sniper. While the Claymore isn't terrible its not good enough for being the special shotgun of doom its supposed to be.

The Widow is a sniper rifle, so it's obviously going to do much more damage in a single shot than any other weapon because thats the nature of the sniper rifle.  For a shotgun though, the Claymore does an obscene amount of damage.

 

The problem is once you have to take a second shot you are better off with almost any other weapon. Also I do test all the weapons in play, I'm only using numbers to prove my points since its factual, everything else is opinion.

You rarely have to take a second shot.  The first shot typically removes all of the enemy's shields and armor, and takes off most of the enemy's health as well.

Most of the time, you can just follow up with a quick melee and finish it.  The second shot is overkill.

Here are the shotgun changes I made that I feel should be in the game. Makes all the shotguns viable, but different. If I was stuck on the 360 version I would just accept how bad the shotguns are and use the Vindicator, but that goes against the spirit of the Vanguard, and now we can actually mod this game.

But now the weapons are unbalanced.. 

Modifié par Mordigan, 05 février 2010 - 09:00 .