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[ERJAK1]

Aris Ravenstar wrote...

ERJAK1 wrote...

Horribly negative portrayal of lesbian characters i.e
Morinth the psycho lesbian who kills with sex.
Nef, the innocent young artist whose life's going great until she develops terminal lesbianism that kills her in a matter of weeks.
Liara, completely untouchable and a bit of a B****
Kelly, meaningless fling, after all lesbian interest is just a phase right?

Lame Bioware, Lame.

I don't know, I think in terms of realism it makes sense. They wanted to show the darker side of things, that includes relationships of all kinds. Let's face it, most BioWare F/F options are the things of male fanboy fantasy, they never seemed like real relationships to me. The fact that they didn't shy away from portraying a F/F relationship as anything but sunshine and pillow fights is more realistic.

The point of Morinth isn't that she's a lesbian at all. She doesn't have a gender preference. Heck, she doesn't even have a gender. They probably made Nef a female simply because it makes her seem so much more vulnerable. Could a male character pull that off as easily, given the stereotypes and misconceptions about men as victims? They wanted to give you further proof of how Morinth preys on people, how it's not just something she's born with, how much of a monster she is. Plus, they were proving how she changes people, given that Nef said she was never particularly attracted to women, but Morinth put her under a spell. She could probably change a gay man straight too, but that would be a needlessly complicated plot change. That said, I didn't really care for the Morinth plot, just because I thought it was boring.

Kelly goes both ways too. She's not so much a meaningless lesbian fling as a secretary stereotype. Pointless, but inoffensive (aside from the fact that it's such a shallow relationship).

And you don't mention the positive flirtations available to female characters from cameos and the like. Take Shiala for instance; a nice, virtuous side-character who makes a casual mention of being interested. I really liked her in the first, and wished she had been my Asari teammate instead of boring Liara.

Yeah, I guess you could look at it like that, it's a much more optimistic view and would be cool if that was the actual reasoning. On the other hand, when F/F relationships are basically meaningless for the PC and ALL OVER for the evil/naive/soon to be dead characters, then things like Nef's death come off as part of an anvilicious anti-gay message. That's not even getting started on the Asari "pureblood" subtext...

Most of the negativity comes as a result of how badly screwed over femshep got in the romance department. Mshep got Tali, MIranda, AND SuZe.

What did femshep get? A terminally ill guy with a dead wife and a kid, a disfigured Turian, and the most boring human character in the series so far. I'd have rather seen the refund guy be an LI(still wouldn't of gone with that option but W/E.) <_<

[ERJAK1]

p0mt3 wrote...

Point 1: You say the combat in this game is boring. In comparison to what, may I ask? Because if you're comparing the combat to the first game, you can't honestly be saying that ME 1 had a better combat system, could you? Sluggish camera controls, no point-specific damage, poor aiming, and an irritating-as-hell 'cool-down' system for the incredibly bland, limited selection of guns? ME 2 clearly has the better design in the aspect. It may not be to your liking, but this series always aspired to be a shooter/RPG. Now with this game, they finally succeeded at having the right balance.

Ignoring everything else, the combat overall is more interesting. There's too much but that's beside the point. The GLARING omission of any kind of manual crouch is almost enough to call it only equal to ME1. The new cover system is great...unless you get someone coming from straight ahead and to the right or left. 

"L2P" You say, "don't let yourself get into that position you say." well if there was a manual crouch instead of both the sticks being that stupid compass thing, it wouldn't be a problem, would it?

[PogoThePrez]

Am I one of the only people who reached the last level and face palmed it the whole way through? I was really disappointed in ME1 after I saw how short it was so I was relieved to see more missions in 2 until I got hit with the craptastic ending mission. I really wanted more development with legion and Thane (one of the best damn characters I've seen so far). Hopefully Bioware will release a bonus mission pack that adds 2 or 3 new mission per loyal squad member.

It just seems annoying that you:

1: Finally see the migrant fleet but only spend one mission on it
2: Find a friendly Geth but only get a few main missions to use him on
3: Only a hand full of missions involving the collectors
4: Can go through most of the game with only 2 weapons of each type
5: Replacement of the horrible planet explore missions with 10 minute 12 enemy mini missions
6: Spend most of the game fighting thugs rather then geth or collectors
7: Replaced the annoying 50 weapon long inventory, by simply removing your choices on the matter
8: Once again another game that rewards players with special items not for merit but because they pre ordered the game from a specific vender............
9: Pcs have more then 15 buttons allow us to beind use sprint and cover to different keys
10: That said allow us to bind weapon selection to a key. Maybe bring back the skill wheel from the first game

Maybe its just that I have really high standards but it has been a long time since I have been truly happy with a game purchase.

Modifié par PogoThePrez, 30 janvier 2010 - 04:14 .

[ThatDancingTurian]

ERJAK1 wrote...

Yeah, I guess you could look at it like that, it's a much more optimistic view and would be cool if that was the actual reasoning. On the other hand, when F/F relationships are basically meaningless for the PC and ALL OVER for the evil/naive/soon to be dead characters, then things like Nef's death come off as part of an anvilicious anti-gay message. That's not even getting started on the Asari "pureblood" subtext...

Most of the negativity comes as a result of how badly screwed over femshep got in the romance department. Mshep got Tali, MIranda, AND SuZe.

What did femshep get? A terminally ill guy with a dead wife and a kid, a disfigured Turian, and the most boring human character in the series so far. I'd have rather seen the refund guy be an LI(still wouldn't of gone with that option but W/E.) <_<

So basically you're actively looking for an anti-gay agenda because you didn't get a F/F romance. That's kind of a strange view considering how many times they've had and welcomed gay relationships in other BioWare games, thus proving they are not -against- homosexual romances. Why they didn't have them in this one, I don't know, so I can't say. But to automatically decide that the entire game has some viciously anti-gay message just because they didn't include F/F in this one is ridiculous.

[agrue]

p0mt3 wrote...

Would you say it's the best story they've written yet, though?

Because I would . . . 

Certainly not.

ME2 had a lot of good ideas in it, but good ideas are the first and absolutly the easiest part of writing a good story. They did an acceptable job, but they could have done a great job if they'd followed through.

[p0mt3]

agrue wrote...

p0mt3 wrote...

Would you say it's the best story they've written yet, though?

Because I would . . . 

Certainly not.

ME2 had a lot of good ideas in it, but good ideas are the first and absolutly the easiest part of writing a good story. They did an acceptable job, but they could have done a great job if they'd followed through.

Again, I find myself simultaneously amused and irritated when people fail to realize this this is part of a trilogy! How can it 'follow through' on everything when the story isn't over?

Perhaps I should have phrased in a bit differently: Does the ME Trilogy have the best story? Still no? Then what does? KotOR? Dragon Age? Jade Empire? Help me out, here.

[Vinditater]

Tell you what, you make a game, we'll all play it, and then we can discuss whether your armchair programmer complaints hold any water whatsoever.

[agrue]

p0mt3 wrote...

Again, I find myself simultaneously amused and irritated when people fail to realize this this is part of a trilogy! How can it 'follow through' on everything when the story isn't over?

Read before quoting. They failed to fully develop the plot elements used in ME2. This has not **** to do with any hypothetical content in ME3 which does not exist yet and is thus not relevant to anything.

[agrue]

Vinditater wrote...

Tell you what, you make a game, we'll all play it, and then we can discuss whether your armchair programmer complaints hold any water whatsoever.

1. Writing is not programming. Think before posting please, it makes more sense that way. The game has relatively few bugs and those that I've encountered have been minor; I have no complaints whatsoever about the programming. Which you'd know, if you'd bothered to read what you replied to.

2. Sure, spot me $40,000,000 or so, plus some extra to live off of while it's in production for the next few years.

[p0mt3]

agrue wrote...

p0mt3 wrote...

Again, I find myself simultaneously amused and irritated when people fail to realize this this is part of a trilogy! How can it 'follow through' on everything when the story isn't over?

Read before quoting. They failed to fully develop the plot elements used in ME2. This has not **** to do with any hypothetical content in ME3 which does not exist yet and is thus not relevant to anything.

Well, in that case I guess we simply disagree. No harm intended.

[Frakking.Toaster]

ERJAK1 wrote...

My big 3 are:

Felt like leveling/upgrades meant nothing, never saw a significant impact one way or another even with fully evolved powers.

No female romance for femshep(Kelly/Liara don't count and Tali does just enough flirting that some good fanfics outta come out of it.)

Horribly negative portrayal of lesbian characters i.e
Morinth the psycho lesbian who kills with sex.
Nef, the innocent young artist whose life's going great until she develops terminal lesbianism that kills her in a matter of weeks.
Liara, completely untouchable and a bit of a B****
Kelly, meaningless fling, after all lesbian interest is just a phase right?

Lame Bioware, Lame.

Now im  absolutly heartbroken over no femshep/jack pairing - to the point when i heard that she would not be an option i sulked for days debating wether or not to get the game and driving my girlfriend absolutly bat**** crazy. BUT. To say that ME is portraying lesbian characters in a bad light is a bit....over zealous perhaps?

Morinth - is NOT a lesbian. With out getting trapped in the monogendered arguement , Yes she trapped a young female human, but shes a PREDATOR. Thats it. Play male shep/fem shep she still goes after you- Its a TYPE shes attracted to- not gender.  I dont think bioware is pulling the "Vampire lesbians from outerspace' card just yet.

Nef...yah...uh. I can't really comment on that. Terminal lesbianitis will get the better of us all one day, but i think they opted for a female victim over a male, as well....sterotypically young males are always looking for sex.(STEROTYPICALLY - not saying it is at all an actuality- THANKS HOLLYWOOD! )) So to have this ..horny shut in take up with a hot asari doesnt really invoke the same emotion as this innocent nerdy girl who "omg just wants to be loved" and all that.

And yah . I was SOOOOOOOO disapointed as far as Liara was concerned, untill reading up on the forums, there are extra options you can unlock thru investigate, and it does change ALOT of your perception reguarding her situation. I seriously went from a attitude of "WOW THANKS FOR KILLING THE ONE LESBIAN OPTION OFF BIOWARE..." to .." ... o crap she does love you still......fuuuuuuuuuu" .  So if you have not gotten that dialogue, i would take a look at the Liara romance thread.

As for ....Kelly "Sexual harassment in the workplace" Chambers.   Yes shes cute. But good god. What a terrible F/F pairing. It seriously just reeked of sleezyness everytime i spoke with her.  When trying to avoid flirtious answers ...i stumbled face first in to ...a million.


As for the subtext w/ the Ardat-Yakshi... that one... i really can't defend. But it is Subtextual, Bioware NORMALLY isnt afraid to put lesbian/gay characters in the maintext , so to think they would be that degrading Subtextually is..a bit hard to swallow. But...i gotta say playing the game i was thinking along the same lines.


 So uh...prove me right devs?!  Femshep / jack plz DLC?! I  have candy...