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Tactics Example


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#1
Grahamers

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Since there are many people having trouble comprehending tactics, I typed up a scenario that demonstrates how they work.  Let me know if this is accurate or how I might improve this:

First, understand that you don't do anything with the tactics menu while in combat.  It is a list of rules that the selected character will follow whenever they are in combat, so you don't open it while in combat, you set it up before combat. Imagine that it is a series of "If...then..." rules.

For my example, here are some tactic rules you might set up for a rogue:

1. IF my health drops below 50%, THEN drink the weakest health potion in our inventory.

2. IF I am surrounded by 3 or more enemies, THEN use my "Dual Weapon Sweep" attack.

3. IF the health of my enemy is greater than 90%, THEN use my "Dirty Fighting" stun attack..

During combat, the computer CONSTANTLY checks to see if any of the IF conditions you set up for each character in their tactics window are true.  It starts with the condition on the top of the list and goes through them in order until it finds one that is true.  When it finds one that is true, it stops there and executes the command you have associated with that condition.  NOTE: If a condition evaluates to true but the skill it wants to execute is on cool down, it will skip over it and go to the next condition in the list.

There is no manual intervention needed by you and there is no noticeable effect going on since the compute does these checks (presumably) many times every second of combat.

So, in the example of the the tactics for a rogue that I listed above, here are some scenarios that might play out:

(NOTE: I use the term "rounds" to mean the passes that the computer makes through the tactics rules.  I do not mean to bring to mind the turn-based games like NWN where you have rounds of play.)

ROUND 1

Lets assume we go into combat and I don't give my rogue any instructions other than she is free to move on her own.  I have set her "Behavior" setting to"Default" which means that she will not attack visible enemies unless she is attacked first.

Now let's assume that she gets hit by a lightning bolt which drops her health to 51% and at the same time she is surrounded by three bad guys. Two of the baddies are at 100% health, but the other one is at 5% health after having been it by an AOE on the way to get me.  What happens?  Let's do what the computer does and find out.

Is the the condition for rule #1 true?  No, my character is NOT below 50% health, so the computer moves on to rule number 2.

Is the condition for rule number 2 true?  Yes.  She is surrounded by at least 3 enemies.  Since this rule is true, the computer stops right there and makes my rogue execute the command I associated with the rule that is true, which, in this case, is "use my Dual Weapon Sweep attack."  So my rogue uses that skill.

Does the computer ever get to rule number three on this split second pass through the rules?  No.  It stopped at rule 2 because it was true and it executed the rule two instructions.  Now the computer starts over and does another check as soon as I am done with me Dual Weapon Sweep move (which is over in a split second anyway).

ROUND 2

Let's assume that during the time when I did my Dual Weapon Sweep move, I got hit by one of the enemies and I am now at 50% health and that I hit all three of my enemies.  One of them died and the other two are at 92% health now.  (Got to love Dual Weapon Sweep!)  What does the computer do now?  It starts the check again.

Is rule #1 true?  No.  I am still not less than 50% health.  I am exactly 50% health, so the computer moves on.

Is rule #2 true?  No.  Now I am not surrounded by three or more enemies.  I have two enemies around me.  The computer moves on.

Is rule #3 true?  Yes!  The enemy I have targeted has 90% or more health.  The computer stops here and executes the instructions I gave for rule #3 which is to use my Dirty Fighting move.  Then, it starts the check ALL over again.  (You can see how this happens many times each second!)

ROUND 3

Lets assume that while I was executing my Dirty Fighting move, I hit the target and stunned him and he is now at 87% health,  but I got hit so my health is at 40%.  The computer starts the checks again from the top.

Is rule #1 true?  Yes!  I am at less than 50% health.  The computer stops right there and executes the instructions I gave for rule #1 which is to use the weakest healing potion I have.  My rogue drinks the potion and is brought back up to 100% health and the computer does what?  Starts checking the rules all over again!

ROUND 4

Is rule #1 true?  No I am at 100% health.  The computer moves on.

Is rule #2 true?  No.  I am not surrounded by 3 or more enemies.  The computer moves on.

Is rule #3 true?  No.  My target is at 87% health.  The computer moves on.

Wait.  that's the end of my rules!  What does the computer do?  It let's me do my normal melee attack and it starts at the top of the rule list again and checks to see if any rules are true.  This goes on many times each second for every character in your party as long as they are fighting.

Hope this helps!

ADDED AS A RESULT OF ONGOING THOUGHT AND COMMENTS:

Additional thoughts on tactics and issues related to tactics and fighting:

1) Tactics are NOT active for any character that you have selected.  This menas whichever character you are controlling AND any other characters you have selected (the ones that have the pointy yellow circles around their feet.)  So if you just selected all four party members and told them to attack the leader of the bandits, make sure that you then deselect all of them except for whichever character you wish to control or all they will be doing is attacking and they will never run their tactic logic!

2) If a condition evaluates to true but the skill it wants to execute is on cool down, it will skip over it and go to the next condition in the list.

3) To answer people in the the thread, yes you have tactics for each character.  I implied that in my OP but did not explicitly state it.  On the top of the left-hand pane of the tactics window there is a character selection control.  The name of the character for whom you are viewing/editing tactics is displayed.  To change the character, simply click on the arrows on either side of the name to scroll through the various characters for whom you may edit tactics.

4) I have mentioned this is other posts, but I forgot to include it here:  The "Behavior" setting in the tactics panel is very important.  It is in the upper right part of the tactics panel for each character.  Drop the list down to see your choices and as you mouse over the choices, the explanations of the default behaviors are very good.  These seem to control what party members do if you have not given them *any* explicit instructions and none of their tactic conditions are true, but I am not 100% sure.

5) The "Move Freely / Hold Position" setting is also important.  You can toggle this party-wide setting by either 1) clicking on the icon which is displayed below your party member icons on the left of your screen; or 2) hitting the H key.  If you have this setting set to "Hold Position" your party members will usually just stand around if you have not given them instructions.  This seems to apply even in combat.  I usually walk around with the setting on "Move Freely" so that they all follow me, but when I want to go into stealth mode and scout ahead, I hit the "H" key to toggle to the "Hold Position" setting.  If combat ensues, I toggle back to Move Freely if I just want my party members to fight on their own.  If I want to hyper-micro-manage, I leave it on Hold Position and pause the game every 0.33 seconds.  :-)

Again, hope this helps!

Modifié par Grahamers, 12 novembre 2009 - 05:05 .


#2
Lenin

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Thanks for the great explanation! I plan on modifying my tactics once I get home!

#3
Grahamers

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Lenin wrote...

Thanks for the great explanation! I plan on modifying my tactics once I get home!


Glad it helped!

#4
carlosjuero

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Very good post! I had figured out alot on my own, but I suck at explaining things to others :/



We need a Wiki entry on tactics

#5
Grahamers

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carlosjuero wrote...

Very good post! I had figured out alot on my own, but I suck at explaining things to others :/

We need a Wiki entry on tactics


Thank you!

#6
Sansin

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Awesome post! I'm totally gonna mess around with it tonight when I get home as well.

#7
Grahamers

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Sansin wrote...

Awesome post! I'm totally gonna mess around with it tonight when I get home as well.


Thank you!  Glad it is helping!

#8
Kinetic Anomaly

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Thanks for the explanation

#9
Grahamers

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Kinetic Anomaly wrote...

Thanks for the explanation


Very glad it is helping.  Maybe I should do a more extrensive write up for the wiki?

#10
Chastain

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Nicely explained.

#11
IvIaster__Shake_

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It's basically the same system that FFXII had, with the exception that you don't have to finish quests to get the condition setups.

#12
Sparky63

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very clearly explained, this needs a sticky., so lets have one.



again, thanks for this explanation.

Sparky

#13
Ziegler_von_strahn

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Good thread, I'd recommend it for the confused.

#14
Skyplatoon

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Very nice of you to take the time to do this. I thought it was simple enough to figure this out but if others are having trouble this really needs a sticky.

#15
Sweatapodimas

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Great post!

#16
Crackpipe1

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The explanation is how I understood it, but perhaps you may shed some light on my situation (PS3):



So, I've set up what I think to be decent tactics, but am uncertain as to if they are executing correctly and/or if I am using my combat correctly.



Here are the problems:



Health related:



1a) I at first had Ally < 25% health -> Use lesser health potion; also had Self < 25% -> Use lesser health potion



1b) I and other allies still kept dying; so I bumped up to < 50% and it KINDA works



--



Combat related:



How I initially start engaging an enemy is to highligh all characters (L1 + R1) and target an enemy (L3). Having simple attack tactics set up, such as Enemy: Nearest Visible -> Attack (or some variation), I would think once the first target was defeated, party members would just move onto the next.



Sometimes I feel like some members just end up standing there. Any suggestions? Should I only have 1 party member highlighted? I suppose I just need a lesson in combat, really. Any help is appreciated! I'm kind of new to this style of RPG.



Health related tactics are on top, attack ones on bottom.

#17
Deltroy

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Great post thanks!

#18
beyondconfused

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Finally someone goes over this.


But since only 1 character can be programed, what about the other characters in your party?

If I have four people in my party A, B, C, D. and I am controlling B, but the character I created is A, then regardless of which character I control, the only tactic's menu that opens up, will be for A (Which is the character I created).

So because of that you only have 1 tactics menu, so if I already set up an attack with C, then it's impossible to set up a tactic for A, B or D. and I have to wait until C is finished before being allowed to create another tactic for another character...

So what good is having 4 characters when only one character can use 1 tactic and the others have to wait until the current one is finished before setting up a new one for a different character or a different one for the same character.

This is dumb and one of the dumbest set ups I have ever seen in a game.

Modifié par beyondconfused, 05 novembre 2009 - 06:29 .


#19
carlosjuero

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You know what beyond confused.. just stop. STOP!



You say 'finally someone goes over this'... this EXACT information was put into at least 2 (TWO!) of your other frikkin posts! By the author of this post no less!



People have also told you that there are arrows to select whic persons tactics to set up. Why won't you take peoples help and actually read it?!



Yes, I have had enough. The tone of my post reflects that.

#20
Rolandable

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Nice post. Sticky please.

#21
Taltherion

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I thought you choose a party member, open the tactics menu and program HIS/HER tactics. Then you choose another party member, open the tactics menu and program HIS/HER tactics ... maybe I'm wrong, I haven't got the game yet.

#22
Fnoggins

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Each character has his or her own Tactics pane.



I find that even with the Tactics menu, the AI in this game is -terrible-. TERRIBLE. It's like figuring out optimum Tactics is a quest in and of itself. A really tough one.

#23
istec

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You can scroll trough the party mebers and set individual tactics for them, same way as you scroll through the inventory and skills.

#24
Rolandable

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beyondconfused wrote...

Finally someone goes over this.


But since only 1 character can be programed, what about the other characters in your party?

If I have four people in my party A, B, C, D. and I am controlling B, but the character I created is A, then regardless of which character I control, the only tactic's menu that opens up, will be for A (Which is the character I created).

So because of that you only have 1 tactics menu, so if I already set up an attack with C, then it's impossible to set up a tactic for A, B or D. and I have to wait until C is finished before being allowed to create another tactic for another character...

So what good is having 4 characters when only one character can use 1 tactic and the others have to wait until the current one is finished before setting up a new one for a different character or a different one for the same character.

This is dumb and one of the dumbest set ups I have ever seen in a game.



Interesting can someone address this please.  Is it true that your tactics menu only works for "your" character?  Because on my pc I have all of my characters/party members set up for situations.  Although the ranger guy seems to suck at doing what he needs to do.  Seems he gets screwed a lot.

#25
SheffSteel

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On the tactics screen, to the left of the character's name, there is an arrow that points left. To the right of the character's name, there is an arrow that points right. Clicking on either arrow will change the character whose tactics screen is being shown.