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Which M/M romances would you prefer if you could have them?


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#1
sejmarty

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1. Garrus
2. Mordin
3. Joker

:P  I can't help but be attracted to Seth Green.  The only thing that would make me like him more would be if he were voiced by Breckin Meyer.  ...They can try to work him into 3, I'm sure.  ^_^

Anyway, I would really like a male romance option with Mordin.  We need more fast-talking scientists to inspire brain activity and make us laugh.  Maybe it's just the Rodney McKay withdrawal I've been suffering through since Stargate Atlantis wasn't renewed for another season.  In some ways I like just being chummy with the crew people and never getting to have a ME romance--it allowed me to appreciate conversations with characters like Tali and Wrex.

But...  Now that Garrus and Tali are both romanceable in ME2 (which I am grateful for), I feel excluded.  If they had the time to make Kelly and Jack and Samara into love interests, was it really due to time constraints that they said there would be no M/M romance option toward the end of September?  And regardless of what a certain uncomfortable Polish voice actor has said, why should we be in the dark about the M/M question when so much else has been revealed?  I've been browsing online and looking for new insights into this each morning, but I've seen nothing yet.  I am hoping it won't be Zaeed (ugly man) if anyone.

Also, why are the gay male romance options always bisexual?  That gets old pretty quickly.  Zevran really came off as omnisexual (much moreso than, say, Captain Jack Harkness in Torchwood, who was omnisexual but who pretty much always came off as gay), like when he says something to the effect of "to be honest, I prefer to sleep with a voluptuous woman, but I can appreciate hotness all across the board" when you're still warming him up with dialogue.  He had me recoiling in horror when I really should have been rolling my eyes.  He's not gay--he's just really promiscuous.

The problem with characters like Zevran (whom I adore, despite myself) is that it squashes the value that a gay romance would have for anyone interested by making it entirely about sex, or "blowing off steam."  Even though he opens up to you if you progress with him and you can feel a little less cheap by the time you're through--it really spits in the face of the real struggles that gay people face in society every day.

Think about it.  Why do straight guys sometimes indulge in romance dialogues in these games?  If the number of girls you can pick from in ME2 is any indication, the straight people are interested.  Sometimes it's just fun or because there can be achievements associated with it, but I am willing to bet that plenty of RPG fans are single and lonely, and that virtual interaction with pretty, fictional girls might take the edge off a bit for them.

Gay guys have to deal with stuff like that, too, only twofold.  Whenever I see a really handsome man and want to introduce myself, I have to first think, "He's way out of my league" before I even get to berrating myself with questions like "Is he even gay?  Is he homophobic?  Is it worth bothering if I could potentially experience rejection and/or physical harm?"  The same insecurities are there, and the chance at living vicariously through Shepard in a role-playing game might appeal to some gay teens, especially.

As for me, I live with my boyfriend of five years.  We've been dating so long that we're used to one another, so hooking up with Zevran in DA:O was a welcome break from the monotony of my faithful relationship.  Besides, my boyfriend found Zevran hilarious, and it was nice that such an important aspect of myself was reflected in the character I was shaping.

At this point, my Shepard is remaining alone.  He's starting to seem like Major Bill Keene in A&E's version of The Andromeda Strain.  Male Shep seems a lot like someone still living in the closet.  He's been restricting himself for so long that he's lost the ability to feel things.

So yeah, there's my rant for today.  I want a gay love interest in my Mass Effect, and someone ordinary--not an exotic libertine like Zevran or a free spirit like Sky.  Just a normal, grumpy guy who makes sarcastic jokes with you and has useful abilities.  Romancing an alien in this setting would almost be perfect because it could help the writers control their libidinous leanings long enough to create a thoughtful companionship.  Mordin could really work there.  Garrus is also tempting because in the dialogue with FemShep, he kept talking about how he was attracted to her personality rather than her body.  That could work with ManShep, too, I think.

It would even just help for teenagers to see a gay man shown in a positive light, someone who is a person before he's a homosexual.  I know the game is rated M, but I'm sure many players are younger than eighteen--besides, even gay men could do with a reminder that gay characters need not be reduced to minstrels (in leather instead of blackface) to have any voice at all in pop culture.  Zevran is cool for people like me, but his character only detracts from the real visibility that gay people have been working toward for decades.

This is unproofread, so please pardon any awkward wording or spelling mistakes.  For those interested in playing a M/M romance, I am interested in your thoughts.

#2
sejmarty

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Oh, oops.  I meant to put this in ME2 (Spoilers).  If one of the moderators sees this, would you kindly move it?  Sorry for the confusion.

#3
Zaxares

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Being a heterosexual male myself, I can't say that I personally want a M/M romance. ;) But I do support and agree with your position; that a homosexual love interest in the game should be a person first, and a homosexual second. (That is, their sexual preference should not overshadow the rest of their character.) It would be nice to see some ACTUAL homosexual characters, as opposed to bisexual characters who are available to both genders.
Mordin's probably not the best choice though; as a Salarian, he has a low enough sex drive as it is. :P Judging by their Codex entry, the vast majority of male Salarians will live their entire lives without ever having sex (with a female Salarian, anyway) once.
EDIT: I don't think the simple mention of Mordin is enough to warrant as a ME2 spoiler (his character profile is freely visible on the ME2 website, after all), but I'll leave the decision up to the mods.

Modifié par Zaxares, 30 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .


#4
DK_DOOM

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They aren't going to put in a M/M option just to have it there. BioWare cares about their characters and how their personality is. The reason there isn't a M/M romance option in either ME game is because there simply is not a gay character in either game. It is not how they were designed, so they weren't going to give you that option.

#5
Marilynn-22

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I agree with you, it would be nice for the game to be more open in that sense, i mean come its the future. and besides in ME1 theres a fem/fem romance ( I know asari are mongender but i still think it counts) who knows maybe in ME3, if your shep is still single there would be a male romance option.


#6
Homebound

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I have this odd feeling that Kaidan will return for ME3 as a M/M LI

EDIT: If you are a dude and you saved him on Virmire

Modifié par Just_mike, 30 janvier 2010 - 07:20 .


#7
sejmarty

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DK_DOOM wrote...

They aren't going to put in a M/M option just to have it there. BioWare cares about their characters and how their personality is. The reason there isn't a M/M romance option in either ME game is because there simply is not a gay character in either game. It is not how they were designed, so they weren't going to give you that option.


They've already proven that they know how to add companions via DLC, so there is no reason they couldn't do that if they really wanted to.

But beyond that, why can't Shepard at least talk about his or her own preferences in the dialogue when love and sexuality come up in conversation?  Like I would like to have these basic options every time a companion hits on me:

1. React positively
2. React indifferently such that you can wait and accept or reject them later
3. React negatively on the basis that I dislike that character (because they try to romance you even after you've been a little curt with them)
3. React negatively on the basis that I am uncomfortable with intimacy altogether (which can leave openings if the companion in question is really curious about why you're uptight and tries to open you up later)
4. React negatively on the basis that I am gay and genuinely turned off by bodies of the opposite sex (which you can be nice about or mean about, I guess--real gay people each respond differently to unwanted advances from the opposite sex)
5. Just say no and don't give a reason at all.

They come in their various forms, but those would be nice.  And when people make small talk with me about girls or love interests, I'd like to just comment that I'm really not interested in that and leave it be.  It has huge potential for sarcastic comedy.  If I could have talked to Kaiden as myself in ME1, I would have been able to stop him from ever telling me about his summer camp girlfriend that I hated hearing about. I would at least like to represent myself as someone who has difficulty relating to women or befriending them outside of a professional context, and I can't.

So you can have a lonely Shepard who is gay with no one to romance, but he doesn't have to be in the closet all the time.  Unless we're really pretending that DADT would still be a factor that far into our future--in which case, the future is a backwards place I no longer care to explore.

#8
newcomplex

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Mordin?



lolwut?

#9
Arik7

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1. Kaidan

2. Kaidan

3. Kaidan

..... yumm...

#10
biddypocket

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DK_DOOM wrote...

They aren't going to put in a M/M option just to have it there. BioWare cares about their characters and how their personality is. The reason there isn't a M/M romance option in either ME game is because there simply is not a gay character in either game. It is not how they were designed, so they weren't going to give you that option.


What are you talking about? My Shep is gay. He hasn't been involved with any of the female romances. He's still holding out for a certain someone...

Arik7 wrote...
1. Kaidan

2. Kaidan

3. Kaidan

..... yumm...


BINGO!!!!!!!!!!!!! omgizzle, did you see the left out scene of Kaiden and Shep kissing in ME1?!?! SO ADORABLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAREWRAWEFAWE@#$#@$34321423143

Modifié par biddypocket, 01 février 2010 - 03:59 .


#11
zqrahll

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It was love at first sight for me & Wrex. No one else is really close, although of the new ME2 characters, it would have to be Mordin.

#12
sejmarty

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Arik7 wrote...

1. Kaidan
2. Kaidan
3. Kaidan
..... yumm...


>.<  I ranted enough about his voice already, but he even looks awful to me.  All I can think is "tacky South Philly Italian kid."

I am glad that he is that unpalatable to me, however, because if I really liked him, I might not have ever gone looking for other characters to really talk to, and Garrus and Wrex were awesome.

#13
Sareth740

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sejmarty wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

1. Kaidan
2. Kaidan
3. Kaidan
..... yumm...


>.<  I ranted enough about his voice already, but he even looks awful to me.  All I can think is "tacky South Philly Italian kid."

I am glad that he is that unpalatable to me, however, because if I really liked him, I might not have ever gone looking for other characters to really talk to, and Garrus and Wrex were awesome.


Carth :D!

The thing I dislike about Kaidan is the fact he didn't find me interesting when I hit on him as a male. D:!

Everything else I like.. He's kind. He never really talked about any female romances he had (At least I don't believe so...), and let's face it, he's a huge romantic. I can't pass it up. :(

I saw the youtube video of someone with a save file that made them gay. It was in the original, just suppressed and unfinished... I don't see why they turned it around and canceled it. o_o...

I really really do hope this is a possibility in the end.. Not just for Kaidan, though. I think ... *Hem* Might be somewhat spoilerish?

Thane is cool. o.o

#14
MagicianCamille

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I am hot for Mordin. He is so brilliant and talented.

#15
sejmarty

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Sareth740 wrote...

Carth :D!

The thing I dislike about Kaidan is the fact he didn't find me interesting when I hit on him as a male. D:!

Everything else I like.. He's kind. He never really talked about any female romances he had (At least I don't believe so...), and let's face it, he's a huge romantic. I can't pass it up. :(

I saw the youtube video of someone with a save file that made them gay. It was in the original, just suppressed and unfinished... I don't see why they turned it around and canceled it. o_o...

I really really do hope this is a possibility in the end.. Not just for Kaidan, though. I think ... *Hem* Might be somewhat spoilerish?

Thane is cool. o.o


For some reason, I didn't expect Thane's voice to be what it is.  I was expecting something soft and cruel, I guess (something like Jin's in the Japanese cast of BlazBlue).  I will talk to him more and probably end up liking him a lot.

I wonder why they say there isn't a demand for M/M romance, though.  I wish I could see a spread of what the ages and genders are of people playing Dragon Age versus NWN, NWN2, ME1, ME2, etc.  I am willing to bet that more girls play Dragon Age than ME.

"Some statistics: in 2001, Nielsen ratings surveys found that 52 percent of the viewers of the gay-themed TV series Queer as Folk were women" (Camper, Yaoi 101: Girls Love "Boys' Love").  For those of you who haven't seen it, Queer as Folk is nothing like Will & Grace, and there are few places where women could insert themselves in the characters' positions.  Plus there are a lot of soft gay sex scenes, so it's impressive that so many of them watched it.

A survey of English-speaking people (80% from the U.S., the UK, Canada, and Australia--where many ME players live) determined that 89% of the Boys' Love (herein BL) manga readership is female (Pagliassotti, Reading Boys' Love in the West).  Also, contrary to the Japanese readership (which has been described as mostly heterosexual females), English-speaking readers tend to connect M/M stories with gay rights activism, whereas Japanese readers consider it fantasy and don't really follow it because it draws parallels to their political leanings.

This is the most interesting statistic from that last article I linked, and it also makes the bisexuality of Zevran and Sky make a lot more sense, demographically-speaking.  Here is how those readers identified their own sexual orientations:

Heterosexual: 47%
Bisexual: 25%
Gay: 4% (my category is small D:)
Lesbian: 3%
Other: 2%
Not Interested in Sex: 7% (incredible, given the explicit nature of most BL material)
Don't Know: 10%
Prefer Not to Say: 2%

Correct me if I am wrong, but M/M romance seems like it's really there for the women.  Any cutscenes and dialogue that you're going to see in a mainstream Bioware RPG are nothing compared to what has aired in shows like Queer as Folk or Nip/Tuck (sexually speaking--because even the straight scenes are always so tame).  As a gay man, I would like to be able to romance a male companion in these games, but the way I would have to play that character is so far from the way I interact with my boyfriend and other gay friends in day to day life.  I think actually experiencing romance (at least in the dramatic sense) with another man would seem odd and forced, and I think that without that part, the female fans would dislike it, the demand would decrease, and we would have to expect less M/M options in the future.

I mean, just look at those gigantic Harry Potter M/M gay fanfiction repositories, or ones for Star Wars.  Girls seem really gung-ho about that stuff.  I think more of them would buy into RPGs if they thought they could get a bit of BL out of it.  You don't see much female viewership when it comes to live gay porn, now do you?  I think that Bioware should push the M/M romance just for the sake of making more money.  I mean, come on.  I thought you loved money.

Throw us a bone, guys.  I'm sure I could never romance my top picks in any game, but even just having the option would be nice.  Again, I would even feel consoled if I could just hit on all of the NPCs and get rejected constantly.  You should add a third category of general responses so that we have Paragon, Renegade, and Lech.  Let the voice actors have fun doing all their shocked and horrified responses.

For the most part, I'm cool with the bromance of it all, but when the PC's love interest makes for an extra-climactic end sequence, it kinda sucks to have no options whatsoever.  To date, I've wanted and been unable to romance Canderous/Mandalore, Hou, Atton, Casavir, Gann, Alistair, Garrus, and Mordin.

Anyway!  The ESA 2008 Annual Report (pdf) found that only 28% of console gamers are female (24).  Actually, a lot of news articles about how women make up half or more of all gamers in the U.S. are misleading because they include puzzle games, flash games, phone games, and every other casual genre--I mean, just because your grandma does a lot of online sudoku doesn't make her a "gamer."  So, maybe the percentage of ladies playing Bioware RPGs is small.  Based on the popularity of the Bishop romance mod for NWN2, I am sure that many more women are drawn to that sort of RPG, and there is most likely some crossover between female PC gamers that like the Sword Coast stuff and those that like DA:O and the ME franchise.

So, if Bioware continues to exclude M/M love interests while including so many extra het and femslash ones, fine.  Don't say you didn't have time.  You could make time.  Just admit that you're too cowardly to risk losing money from some enraged homophobes that like your games (but they'd really have to be hardcore M/M-only homophobic, because otherwise they wouldn't tolerate all the lesbian activity), and be done with it.  You're the ones that made love interests such an integral part of your storylines.  I mean, let's face it, you're not Obsidian, so some of your stories would have been pretty hollow without it.

The more I think and talk about this issue, the more bitter I become.  It's frustrating because I'll still pay you whatever you ask to play your games because the combat is finally getting good, and the artwork is really quite stunning (I actually just bought a new LED-lit LCD TV to play it in HD without using our plasma).  It's demeaning enough that I already find myself riding the coattails of the BL-crazed women (with nothing to shield me from the ****haggery) just to see something I can actually relate to in a commercial RPG.

If you really thought that Sky and Zevran were for the gay men, at least one of them would have been a bear or a queen--but women wouldn't be into that, so they are each reduced to a waxed chest from the cover of some romantic dime novel.

Note: I know I referenced Obsidian games a few times in there and that they aren't Bioware, but it's for example's sake

Modifié par sejmarty, 02 février 2010 - 05:38 .


#16
Inquisitor Recon

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If Kaidan shows up on my ship and tries to hit on me, well the airlock is right over there.

And Zevran tried to kill me twice. Ungrateful jerk.



Anyway I am of the mind that Bioware should use that time it would take for such options elsewhere. And before you say I am a heartless bastard I already know.

#17
1*183

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++If Bioware included a male / male relationship option, Fox News would recoil in horror as they already did with the sex scene in ME1. However, the outcry would be even worse. However, as long as it irritates Fox News, we think that Bioware should include the option in ME3.++

#18
sejmarty

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1,183 wrote...

++If Bioware included a male / male relationship option, Fox News would recoil in horror as they already did with the sex scene in ME1. However, the outcry would be even worse. However, as long as it irritates Fox News, we think that Bioware should include the option in ME3.++


Yeah, but Fox News didn't even touch Dragon Age, and the lady who commented as saying that ME1 was degrading to women eventually took it back once she saw the scene, saying that she'd seen more sexually explicit content on Lost.

And Dragon Age did get a bit of buzz.  The NY Times did an article, as well as (of course) gaygamer and AfterElton.  The things they said about it were all neutral and/or positive, and they featured a video of the scene with Zevran on many of their sites.  To my knowledge, the only people who complained loudly at all were WorldNetDaily and Gawker, which was practically a given.  The only people I know who read those sites are my boyfriend's Mormon grandparents.

I don't think anyone would be too angry, and I think that Fox intentionally stayed away from Dragon Age after the backlash when they made those ME1 comments.

#19
Sparklehorse69

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I just want to thank you for such a well written post. As a gay man who has been a gamer since the Atari 2600, I must say that you completely encapsulated my feelings about this issue in Bioware games.



I certainly appreciate Bioware's effort to include our demographic in their artwork. Let's face it, they are, for all intents and purposes, the only game developers who even bother to acknowledge that we exist and this plays no small part in my enjoyment of their products and does much to ensure that I will remain a fan of them for years to come. Having said that, it certainly could use much improvement as was described in your posts.



So to Bioware, I thank you for the steps you have taken toward this progress and I urge you to stop second guessing yourself and withdrawing from fully exploring these avenues and story lines. I expect good things from ME3 and KOTOR Online in this respect.

#20
1*183

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++ It seems to be only a matter of time until a game will feature each orientation completely.++