120 réponses à ce sujet

[Mox Ruuga]

Headshotmaster wrote...

I think the best way to tie up all lose ends for ME3 in terms of characters is to have it so that you can only import games where your entire squad survives. It doesn't kill off the awesome characters, it allows old squad members to come back, and it won't ****** the fans off.

Oh hell no! I want the consequences to stick, not wiped away for the sake of someone else's continued fanservice. Tali is space dust, and continues forever more to be so in my game.

What you suggest would be the deathblow to the "your decisions have real consequences" thing that was used to sell Mass Effect as something new and unique.

[StolenThunder]

Headshotmaster wrote...


And that version of ME3 would be utterly depressing.

But would it honestly surprise you? With this whole catering to the noobs who didn't seem to want to bother to pay 15-20 bucks for the original Mass Effect, I can totally see them saying "Well, we don't want to confuse everyone so we changed our minds about the original ME love interests and they all died together in a blackhole. The ME2 romances followed after them in hopes of saving them and died, too. Oh, and the big party you recruited in ME2? They all decided that since you're working for the Council again and not Cerberus, you're a traitor and they hate you, so here's this shiny new package of 10 more squaddies to take you into end game."

Modifié par StolenThunder, 30 janvier 2010 - 08:09 .

[Faerlyte]

Mox Ruuga wrote...

Headshotmaster wrote...

I think the best way to tie up all lose ends for ME3 in terms of characters is to have it so that you can only import games where your entire squad survives. It doesn't kill off the awesome characters, it allows old squad members to come back, and it won't ****** the fans off.

Oh hell no! I want the consequences to stick, not wiped away for the sake of someone else's continued fanservice. Tali is space dust, and continues forever more to be so in my game.

What you suggest would be the deathblow to the "your decisions have real consequences" thing that was used to sell Mass Effect as something new and unique.

Yeah, me too. All of my party survived. I'd like to have some of them return as squadmates for ME3 rather than be wiped away for the sake of someone else's fanservice. 

[dr dANGER boy]

The more I think about the pattern Bioware has set, the more I'm convinced you won't see your ME2 characters in anything but cameos. Although I think Headshotmaster's idea would be the most pleasing to everybody. You are guaranteed that 99% of all ME2 players will do a playthrough and save all their squadmates. Having only those saves where you saved your squad be importable would certainly satisfy the fanbase seeing as how there are very very few arguments calling to ditch them and start off fresh with new squadmates. However, being selective in what imports you can do takes away one of the most important elements of Bioware games...CHOICE.

Like I said, don't plan on there being ME2 characters in any sort of noticeable role. Enjoy them now.

Modifié par dr dANGER boy, 30 janvier 2010 - 08:18 .

[DK_DOOM]

I think BioWare will really just consider who needs to be playable in missions and on the squad alongside you. They could easily make sense out of characters like Mordin, or Jacob not being playable, but still being with you on the ship. Mordin's real main role is just the tech stuff. He was recruited for that. He doesn't have to be in the squad but he should still be a main side character. Jacob just really didn't develop and I could see him getting a role like the ME1 squad where he is somewhere else and assists you in ME3. But for the characters like Garrus, Grunt, or Jack, they really have nothing else to do but fight.

[dr dANGER boy]

But think about the logic of it all. People are letting emotions come into play here. Logically, the ONLY way you can have ANY character besides Joker and The Illusive Man would be in cameos. As harsh as it is to use this term, the characters in ME2 were designed to be expendable. They would not give you characters who could die if they didn't intend for them to have anything but cameos in ME3.



Bioware is gonna bank of the same strategy they did with ME2...introduce new characters in the hope that players will "forget" about the old ones. It's the only logically and logistically-easiest way to do it. Otherwise you eliminate the idea that choices matter.

[StolenThunder]

SwobyJ wrote...

I wouldn't buy that game, especially not in any Collector's Edition.

Maybe borrow from friend, maybe rent, maybe buy used if what I've seen is otherwise perfect, but I would never buy new.

This isn't just 'SwobyJ is still playing ME2 so the characters are fresh in his mind!' - no - I just would not buy it. It goes against the whole 'but your decisions *matter*' idea to just have especially ME2 squad members in silly small cameos. Nope, not gonna take that.

Sadly, that's basically what happened with ME1. Wrex, Kaidan/Ashley, and Liara all got cameo'd. Sure the outcome of keeping Wrex alive was a nice touch, but did it honestly matter? No, frankly, it didn't. Hell, even to some people, their romance option from the first game didn't even "matter."

Going by the whole Indiana Jones metaphore Priestly was using, I don't see any reason why Mass Effect 2 characters would be returning for the third one. I think that what's going to happen in 3 is that they're going to scale back to the big picture and focus entirely on whose best suited to go after the Reapers and not play a popularity contest with the Mass Effect 2 cast.

With that in mind, the only people I can really see coming back are Miranda/Jacob since if you "paragonize" them, they seem to lean away from Cerberus at the end, ME1 characters, and -maybe- Garrus. Tali is too open ended, I think, for a real return. You can get her exiled and she'll stick with you - but she can still die OR you can clear her name and she hints that she might go back to the flotilla as an admiral - but she can still die.

As for the rest, Samara said she was going back to Asari space or something, Thane is going to die irregardless, Jack was going to take her leave if she doesn't die, Legion will probably act as some sort of weird go-between for the Geth, Mordin has no real reason to stay with the group (I think he might have mentioned going back to Omega, can't remember, though) and Zaeed is a mercinary.

Oh, actually, I missed one. I think that Grunt has the strongest likelihood of returning as a full squad member in ME3 simply because...you're his battlemaster <3:wub:

[dr dANGER boy]

As cruel as it is, and as much as I would hate to see it, I don't see very many choices otherwise. When I say cameo, I mean you get a scene or two with them, maybe a side quest, but not much else. If you want to stay with your LI from ME2, you probably can but they won't have a big role. They'll probably just being haning out, there only to help develop your relationship further. I'd be ok with this. But they won't have roles where they interact with other main NPCs.

[Jersey75639]

 If they are going to scrap the ME2 characters from the squad completely, and the whole focus of the game in ME2 was building the squad, then what was the point of ME2?  You made very few (maybe even only one) meaningful decision in ME2 that didn't involve your squad.   my opinion

[Faerlyte]

dr dANGER boy wrote...

The more I think about the pattern Bioware has set, the more I'm convinced you won't see your ME2 characters in anything but cameos. Although I think Headshotmaster's idea would be the most pleasing to everybody. You are guaranteed that 99% of all ME2 players will do a playthrough and save all their squadmates. Having only those saves where you saved your squad be importable would certainly satisfy the fanbase seeing as how there are very very few arguments calling to ditch them and start off fresh with new squadmates. However, being selective in what imports you can do takes away one of the most important elements of Bioware games...CHOICE.

Like I said, don't plan on there being ME2 characters in any sort of noticeable role. Enjoy them now.

My problem with this reasoning is, as you pointed out, choice is one of the most important elements of Bioware games. So what's the point in having the choice to save all your characters if you can't get any of them back as squadmates in ME3 because other players let them die? That's not fair to the people who wanted them all to survive. It's like a slap in the face. You have a choice, but we can't really bring any of those characters back in a major role because someone else let them die. 

Also, what about the romantic interests? So the ones from ME1 will have an important role in ME3 (at this point, you pretty much figure they must), but not the ones from ME2? What's the point of having those options if they can't take on the important roll that an ME1 LI would have if you had romanced them? The people who didn't have an LI in ME1 are basically getting the shaft in that case. 

Games evolve, game developers evolve - they can make the system of choice even better. They can put those characters in as squadmates for the people who let their party members survive, and the ones who didn't won't miss those characters because they let them die. Consequences are as much a part of a game about choices as the choices themselves . There are consequences to losing teammates - you don't get to recruit them in the next game, while the people who let them live do. That would be fair. 

[StolenThunder]

SwobyJ wrote...

"Assemble the.... other team. Forget about the old one. They're the best in the galaxy, but yeah, forget about them." Wonderful.

What I think we might be skipping over is the fact that they all were the best...for a SUICIDE mission. None of them were expected to come back and that was a GOOD thing.

For whatever reason, the ME1s got to live because for reasons unknown to us at this time (if they were NOT our LIs) their lives not obviously as worthless as a psychopath, a savage, and an assasin's.

[Mox Ruuga]

Faerlyte wrote...

Yeah, me too. All of my party survived. I'd like to have some of them return as squadmates for ME3 rather than be wiped away for the sake of someone else's fanservice. 

Heh heh, nice try but no cigar. Bioware hasn't said that you will be able to take the ME2 squad along with you in ME3. In fact, they have implied something else altogether.

Bioware has, however, said that actions have consequences in the ME trilogy, and that if someone dies, they stay dead.

You kept your squad alive. They will be recorded as having survived the suicide mission, nothing more. Who knows, they might die during the time between the games, though I seriously doubt that.

[dr dANGER boy]

Faerlyte wrote...

dr dANGER boy wrote...

The more I think about the pattern Bioware has set, the more I'm convinced you won't see your ME2 characters in anything but cameos. Although I think Headshotmaster's idea would be the most pleasing to everybody. You are guaranteed that 99% of all ME2 players will do a playthrough and save all their squadmates. Having only those saves where you saved your squad be importable would certainly satisfy the fanbase seeing as how there are very very few arguments calling to ditch them and start off fresh with new squadmates. However, being selective in what imports you can do takes away one of the most important elements of Bioware games...CHOICE.

Like I said, don't plan on there being ME2 characters in any sort of noticeable role. Enjoy them now.

My problem with this reasoning is, as you pointed out, choice is one of the most important elements of Bioware games. So what's the point in having the choice to save all your characters if you can't get any of them back as squadmates in ME3 because other players let them die? That's not fair to the people who wanted them all to survive. It's like a slap in the face. You have a choice, but we can't really bring any of those characters back in a major role because someone else let them die. 

Also, what about the romantic interests? So the ones from ME1 will have an important role in ME3 (at this point, you pretty much figure they must), but not the ones from ME2? What's the point of having those options if they can't take on the important roll that an ME1 LI would have if you had romanced them? The people who didn't have an LI in ME1 are basically getting the shaft in that case. 

Games evolve, game developers evolve - they can make the system of choice even better. They can put those characters in as squadmates for the people who let their party members survive, and the ones who didn't won't miss those characters because they let them die. Consequences are as much a part of a game about choices as the choices themselves . There are consequences to losing teammates - you don't get to recruit them in the next game, while the people who let them live do. That would be fair. 

Good point but read the post below yours...if we tear ME2 down to its core, it is about fighting the Collectors.  The means to do that was building up a squad and gaining their loyalty, but the end goal was to defeat the Collectors.  It does seem counterproductive that Bioware would put so much energy into developing the characters to just throw them away but from my point of view, I don't see many other options.

[Never]

I just want my Kaidan back, and after a few good biotic Slams he should be ready for ME3. Walking away from Shep... Wtf.

[Mox Ruuga]

SwobyJ wrote...

This is one thing I agree with you on. However, I wouldn't mind if playing Default NewProfile Shep that it would be made that everyone survives, but that you just did specific things with them otherwise.

I think they will continue the way they have with Default McNewProfile, that is, taking the quickest way through. Which means casualties. Wrex is a good example, he died in the default story. Perhaps they'll handle the possible ME2 squad cameos the same way as Ash and Kaidan were in ME2? MaleShep gets one set, with all the possible female LIs, FemShep gets another with all the male LIs. Those who aren't LIs have even lesser cameos, but both defaults see them. Except both Samara and Morinth die in both default versions.

[dr dANGER boy]

Here's how I see it in my mindseye...



You will see characters that survived from ME2 but only in cameo roles with a possible sidequest. You will be see your ME2 LI and be able to interact with them but only in a support role. They hang around the ship or wherever, giving you the opportunity to talk with them, flirt, and all that but not much else. You will have a big reunion after you defeat the Reapers and any characters that survived in the entire trilogy will meet up. I highly doubt you will see any characters from ME2 as squadmates or in any sort of major role.



Look at the mechanics behind how you built up relationships in ME2. It wasn't in combat and running around on missions (besides the loyalty missions) that you really got to know them. It was talking with them inbetween missions and having a loyalty mission. I can see this system in ME3 for all the ME2 characters, but nothing more. This would be to satisfy those who want them to return while staying honest with the high level of variability in who survives the suicide mission.

[Jersey75639]

 Well, since Shepard has to survive to get to ME3, some of the rest of the team HAS to survive... because I don't think it's possible for Shepard to survive and every other person on the team die.  So, it seems perfectly logical to me that some of the ME2 characters will return in major roles, though probably not all of them.
But then you get down to picking and choosing who dies and lives, so.. Bleh.
Holding out optimism for the characters that I want to have major roles to have them.  

[dr dANGER boy]

I hear you Jersey. My roleplaying-mind wants Miranda, Garrus, and Tali to return in major roles with the possibility to further expand your relationship, but my logical mind says that it is logistically impossible and relocates them to cameo/minor roles.

Let's hope Bioware is a hell of a lot smarter and creative than the conclusions we are coming up with.

Seeing the development of Miranda from a stonecold ice queen to somebody with a personality underneath...seeing Tali's character really advance by leaps and bounds...and watching an awesome friendship develop with Garrus just makes you pray to God they will be in major roles in ME3.

Modifié par dr dANGER boy, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:12 .

[Mox Ruuga]

There are lots of ways they can disperse or kill off the surviving ME2 squad.

What if we once again have a new org we are working for? People finally get the magnitude of the threat, and form some sort of new multi-species anti Reaper initiative. Rainbow Six in space. Anderson leads, you are his second in command and leader of the "main" team. Your surviving ME2 squad is assigned in other teams, just so every team has someone with experience against Reapers and their indoctrinated thralls. People like Mordin could even be given "Q" type of non combatant role.

This is just one quick throwaway idea.

Bioware has many choices on how to make the ME2 team into cameos. It will allow them to concentrate on finishing the main story begun in ME1, rather than trying to write good quality full time squaddie roles for 10+ possibly returning characters.

[dr dANGER boy]

I'll agree with you on the part about making full-time squadmates...I don't think Bioware will do it. You'll get new squadmates for that purpose. However, I would like to see the characters I mentioned above appear in roles slightly more explorable than the Liara/Horizon sequence.



From an RPG point of view, I want closure with whoever I chose. Many players feel more attached/loyal to ME2 characters. While having full-time roles is unfeasible, it would be nice to be able to take your ME2 LI further rather than just a short love scene from ME2 and then throwing them away. There is so much more you can get to know about your LI.

[Criyos]

The major thing bioware has to deal with is that they have a rope that's fraying so much that the frayed ends themselves are fraying. ME3 will have to account for all possibilities. That with the major plot being: "John Shepard and Mr. T gonna go throw the Reapers helluva far!" means ME3 will have to have more redundant plot elements and story components than most games have for the main story line.

I only have one play though, so I don't know what happens with Miranda too much but assuming everyone lives::

Squad:
Tali - Worst Case exiled to Normandy, not going anywhere
Garrus
MIranda - Not leaving corner office any time soon.
Jack
Jacob

Off Ship:
Wrex and Grunt - Off building up the Krogan Clans, most likely NPCs
Ashley/Kaiden - Alliance, not going anywhere, NPC
Liara - More than likely going to kill/become Shadow Broker, assuming he is not a reaper, NPC
Mordin - SCIENCE!!!, Recruitable?
Legion - Rallying Geth Fleets for war, Recruitable?
Thane - Will probably die, Replaced by son? Dropped all together
Samara - Maybe off Being batman somewhere. Recruitable? NPC? No idea.

Non-squad mates returns:
EDI - is your ship
Joker - Glass bones, can not move.
Dr. Chawkwa - Retired, current residence, Normandy Med Bay.

::Edit:: Looked ugly as sin.

Modifié par Criyos, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:20 .