101 réponses à ce sujet

[WKlingbeil1]

Fumbleumble wrote...

pterrell wrote...

So since you're clearly not a greedy man you would be fine simply living in a rotting apartment with dank sheets and working at McDonalds without holding a grudge against anyone? Hmm you're quite the anomaly...

What has living an unsatisfactory existance in dirt and squalour got to do with anything?...

I feel like I can meet the middle for this discussion between you 2.  No form of government will be perfect, nor will it be its "true" form.  If fumbleumble is talking Plato here (which is obvious), the "true" form of Communism does not exist because it can never be achieved on this Earth, primarily due to the human condition.  All people are different and there is no changing that.  You saying that a "true" Communist society has never existed, is just as true as saying a  true Democracy has never existed.  People will change and distort what the "true" form of whatever "it" is.  Regardless of whether you personally are greedy or not, the billions of other people out there are, and Communism is destined to fail, along with the rest of the government forms.  That is why this discussion is pointless, because it is dealing with subjects that are as real as Commander Shepard and the Alliance.

[pterrell]

You argue that greed is bad, yet you're greedy. By saying so you are putting yourself in the fire of your own arguments. It creates an idealogical paradox.

[wsmb0233]

pterrell wrote...

Because since you want to live in conditions greater than others that shows greed. QUOTED "'He has something, so I want more" Unsatisfactory existence is only determined by what others have in comparison to you and what you want.

By you being greedy it shows you as a hypocrite since you're arguing that greed is bad. This discredits you and your entire argument falls apart. GG!

but the 98% are greedy of a wealth that the 2% control.... and how many of the 98% are employed by the 2%?... safe to say a majority? if the 98%'s main (yet respectively limited) income comes from those who control the majority of the wealth, how is the majority of the population supposed to advance?

[Fumbleumble]

pterrell wrote...

You argue that greed is bad, yet you're greedy. By saying so you are putting yourself in the fire of your own arguments. It creates an idealogical paradox.

This is exactly what I mean... justify that I'm greedy..... because that I think dirt and squalour as you have quanitifed, is unsatisfactory.... wtf??.. where exactly are you taking this arguement?

[pterrell]

wsmb0233 wrote...

pterrell wrote...

Because since you want to live in conditions greater than others that shows greed. QUOTED "'He has something, so I want more" Unsatisfactory existence is only determined by what others have in comparison to you and what you want.

By you being greedy it shows you as a hypocrite since you're arguing that greed is bad. This discredits you and your entire argument falls apart. GG!

but the 98% are greedy of a wealth that the 2% control.... and how many of the 98% are employed by the 2%?... safe to say a majority? if the 98%'s main (yet respectively limited) income comes from those who control the majority of the wealth, how is the majority of the population supposed to advance?

father is self employed, mother is stay at home, and I work for the government. I have no idea what working for those 2% are like. I just work for the Chief

I advance through trying to better myself. I advance by trying to be better than others. Greed is not always monetary. Greed can be power, social status, rank, favor, etc. 

[Fumbleumble]

pterrell wrote...

You argue that greed is bad, yet you're greedy. By saying so you are putting yourself in the fire of your own arguments. It creates an idealogical paradox.

This is exactly what I mean.. justify that I'm greedy... just because I find dirt and squalour, as you have defined, to be unsatisfactory?... wtf??.. where exactly are you taking this arguement?

Modifié par Fumbleumble, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:00 .

[wsmb0233]

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

Fumbleumble wrote...

pterrell wrote...

So since you're clearly not a greedy man you would be fine simply living in a rotting apartment with dank sheets and working at McDonalds without holding a grudge against anyone? Hmm you're quite the anomaly...

What has living an unsatisfactory existance in dirt and squalour got to do with anything?...

I feel like I can meet the middle for this discussion between you 2.  No form of government will be perfect, nor will it be its "true" form.  If fumbleumble is talking Plato here (which is obvious), the "true" form of Communism does not exist because it can never be achieved on this Earth, primarily due to the human condition.  All people are different and there is no changing that.  You saying that a "true" Communist society has never existed, is just as true as saying a  true Democracy has never existed.  People will change and distort what the "true" form of whatever "it" is.  Regardless of whether you personally are greedy or not, the billions of other people out there are, and Communism is destined to fail, along with the rest of the government forms.  That is why this discussion is pointless, because it is dealing with subjects that are as real as Commander Shepard and the Alliance.

Keeping with your paradox, I agree and disagree simultaneously.... True communism COULD exist in a TRUELY democratic state... problem being, less than 25% of the American nation voted for George W. Bush in 2000 (less than 50% voter turn out, and less than 24% popular vote)

Using this solid information as a foundation I feel comfortable in saying that Americans are far too lazy to be a true democracy, or even (at best) a less laughable version of a republic...... it would take a man far more influential thank Dr. King to bring us out of this rut that we're in

Good luck America, may your initial vision rest in peace (about 70 years too late)

[RuinerGaming]

Instead of the proposed bringing back the elevator, how about using the "key points" conversation system that Dragon Age has? So if you cross a certain point(usually a bridge) conversations between two of your companions start, works great in DA:O

[WKlingbeil1]

wsmb0233 wrote...

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

Fumbleumble wrote...

pterrell wrote...

So since you're clearly not a greedy man you would be fine simply living in a rotting apartment with dank sheets and working at McDonalds without holding a grudge against anyone? Hmm you're quite the anomaly...

What has living an unsatisfactory existance in dirt and squalour got to do with anything?...

I feel like I can meet the middle for this discussion between you 2.  No form of government will be perfect, nor will it be its "true" form.  If fumbleumble is talking Plato here (which is obvious), the "true" form of Communism does not exist because it can never be achieved on this Earth, primarily due to the human condition.  All people are different and there is no changing that.  You saying that a "true" Communist society has never existed, is just as true as saying a  true Democracy has never existed.  People will change and distort what the "true" form of whatever "it" is.  Regardless of whether you personally are greedy or not, the billions of other people out there are, and Communism is destined to fail, along with the rest of the government forms.  That is why this discussion is pointless, because it is dealing with subjects that are as real as Commander Shepard and the Alliance.

Keeping with your paradox, I agree and disagree simultaneously.... True communism COULD exist in a TRUELY democratic state... problem being, less than 25% of the American nation voted for George W. Bush in 2000 (less than 50% voter turn out, and less than 24% popular vote)

Using this solid information as a foundation I feel comfortable in saying that Americans are far too lazy to be a true democracy, or even (at best) a less laughable version of a republic...... it would take a man far more influential thank Dr. King to bring us out of this rut that we're in

Good luck America, may your initial vision rest in peace (about 70 years too late)

My point exactly, no government could exist in its truest form because of people.  Let's say that there was a 100% voter turn out for this imaginary vote between communism and democracy, and 51% voted communism vs. 49% democracy, so communism wins.  Let's say those 51% are not greedy at all (which is impossible to begin with, and another reason why communism can't exist), and they desire nothing but true communism.  You still hvae 49% of the country that will not be satisfied with this result, and with such a radical change, do you think they would disagree peacefully?  Full scale war would be upon us again, my point is, people ruin everything.  Ideas are always shells of their former selves because we taint them.  And it's not just America, we are humans, just like the rest of the world.  The whole world has the same problems, people ruining everything.

[wsmb0233]

pterrell wrote...

wsmb0233 wrote...

pterrell wrote...

Because since you want to live in conditions greater than others that shows greed. QUOTED "'He has something, so I want more" Unsatisfactory existence is only determined by what others have in comparison to you and what you want.

By you being greedy it shows you as a hypocrite since you're arguing that greed is bad. This discredits you and your entire argument falls apart. GG!

but the 98% are greedy of a wealth that the 2% control.... and how many of the 98% are employed by the 2%?... safe to say a majority? if the 98%'s main (yet respectively limited) income comes from those who control the majority of the wealth, how is the majority of the population supposed to advance?

father is self employed, mother is stay at home, and I work for the government. I have no idea what working for those 2% are like. I just work for the Chief

I advance through trying to better myself. I advance by trying to be better than others. Greed is not always monetary. Greed can be power, social status, rank, favor, etc. 

Well technically (yet not proportionately) you work for the 100%... I totally agree with you though, greed is one nasty ****... it would take one hell of a Shepard to bring her down..... or maybe one hell of a generation?

[wsmb0233]

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

My point exactly, no government could exist in its truest form because of people.  Let's say that there was a 100% voter turn out for this imaginary vote between communism and democracy, and 51% voted communism vs. 49% democracy, so communism wins.  Let's say those 51% are not greedy at all (which is impossible to begin with, and another reason why communism can't exist), and they desire nothing but true communism.  You still hvae 49% of the country that will not be satisfied with this result, and with such a radical change, do you think they would disagree peacefully?  Full scale war would be upon us again, my point is, people ruin everything.  Ideas are always shells of their former selves because we taint them.  And it's not just America, we are humans, just like the rest of the world.  The whole world has the same problems, people ruining everything.

you're totally right.... and this very point makes me wonder if America should really be a federalist or capitalist state any more.... unfortunately, our education system has turned words like socialism, communism, and confederacy into curse words, therefore the very thought of anything different from what we have now is complete taboo..... 

[WKlingbeil1]

And I have worked for that 2%, just like I currently work for the 100%, as you say. I agree with what your opinions on that 2% seem to be (can't say for sure what they are, simply assuming that you dislike them), because I've felt that greed first hand. However, that doesn't mean I want such a radical change that would remove individuality and independence. If I want to be rich, I don't want it handed to me, or if I want to live comfortably, I don't want it to be handed to me. I want to work for it, and see what my hard work has achieved. The only government this is possible in is democracy. Hand-outs are the problem with this country, and are directly responsible for the Paris Hiltons, the Kim Kardashians, the... entire cast of Jersey Shore. Think about that for a second. Jersey Shore is full of just AWFUL people, just awful.

[Fumbleumble]

Ruiner667 wrote...

Instead of the proposed bringing back the elevator, how about using the "key points" conversation system that Dragon Age has? So if you cross a certain point(usually a bridge) conversations between two of your companions start, works great in DA:O

Trigger points... yep, totally.... so much has simply been ripped out of the game instead of trying to actually fix it... just strikes me as being the lazy way to do things.....Maybe they spend all of the development money for the GAME on motiion capture and the ridiculous VO bill :<...

Oh and I just love in the credits where the likes of Jim Cummings (a truely awesome VO artist) ends up at the bottom of the bill along with Dwight Shultz, when the likes of Brandon Keener, Mark Meer and Yvonne Strahovski (who are these people ?!?!) gets an actual credit...wtf?????

Less 'Hollywood' and more game I think.

[WKlingbeil1]

wsmb0233 wrote...

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

My point exactly, no government could exist in its truest form because of people.  Let's say that there was a 100% voter turn out for this imaginary vote between communism and democracy, and 51% voted communism vs. 49% democracy, so communism wins.  Let's say those 51% are not greedy at all (which is impossible to begin with, and another reason why communism can't exist), and they desire nothing but true communism.  You still hvae 49% of the country that will not be satisfied with this result, and with such a radical change, do you think they would disagree peacefully?  Full scale war would be upon us again, my point is, people ruin everything.  Ideas are always shells of their former selves because we taint them.  And it's not just America, we are humans, just like the rest of the world.  The whole world has the same problems, people ruining everything.

you're totally right.... and this very point makes me wonder if America should really be a federalist or capitalist state any more.... unfortunately, our education system has turned words like socialism, communism, and confederacy into curse words, therefore the very thought of anything different from what we have now is complete taboo..... 

It is because it must.  Our government has become all bureaucracy and would be ineffective at handling any change, for the good or for the better.  Instead of discussing raising teacher salaries, or not letting education be the first budget cut we make when times get tough, we're discussing making year-round school.  This point basically epitomizes the problem with our leaders.  Making year-round school would discourage top prospective teachers from being one (having summers off is a big deal, trust me), force tax increases, and give kids the chance to miss MORE school than ever.  How can we afford year round school when we can't even afford it in its current state?  We need better teachers, we need less frivolous lawsuits from crappy parents because their child decided not to do its part in school, we need to get rid of tenure and not be afraid of firing teachers who no longer care whether children fail or not.  We do not need an extended school year that will result in more SRO's that have to chase after the exponentially greater truant students.  Regardless of what your opinions are on politics, both parties suck, Obama sucks, Bush sucked, they all suck.  The 2 party system has ruined this country, just as the original G.W. predicted.  The 1st and greatest president of our country is the one we should've listened to most.

[WKlingbeil1]

[quote]Fumbleumble wrote...

[quote]Ruiner667 wrote...

Less 'Hollywood' and more game I think.
[/quote]

100% correct, although I do love Strahovsky's voice, as I've stated before.  I think I could've done with someone else just fine too though, with a similar voice and less paycheck, haha.

[wsmb0233]

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

And I have worked for that 2%, just like I currently work for the 100%, as you say. I agree with what your opinions on that 2% seem to be (can't say for sure what they are, simply assuming that you dislike them), because I've felt that greed first hand. However, that doesn't mean I want such a radical change that would remove individuality and independence. If I want to be rich, I don't want it handed to me, or if I want to live comfortably, I don't want it to be handed to me. I want to work for it, and see what my hard work has achieved. The only government this is possible in is democracy. Hand-outs are the problem with this country, and are directly responsible for the Paris Hiltons, the Kim Kardashians, the... entire cast of Jersey Shore. Think about that for a second. Jersey Shore is full of just AWFUL people, just awful.

You're totally right, but these aren't public/government hand-outs... all of these are private.... Paris is the heiress of the Hilton fortune (and probably company as scary as that is....).... The Kardashians are rich girls that got E! to think they were a sellable brand (obviously true).... and the Jersey Shore kids were the same with Viacom..... it's disgusting but it's what this country is... it's what the main stream media is.... I'm hopeful for the new media revolution to kick in and start to slay this dragon that is the main-stream media elite, but it's going to take decades (I think) for this to happen

I can't honestly say I know what needs to be done... I'm no economist, just a philosopher.... but I do know that the American condition has force the majority of our country into a corner that the majority seem content on being in.... ignorance may bliss, but their contentment in inferiority is rather aggravating 

[WKlingbeil1]

wsmb0233 wrote...

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

And I have worked for that 2%, just like I currently work for the 100%, as you say. I agree with what your opinions on that 2% seem to be (can't say for sure what they are, simply assuming that you dislike them), because I've felt that greed first hand. However, that doesn't mean I want such a radical change that would remove individuality and independence. If I want to be rich, I don't want it handed to me, or if I want to live comfortably, I don't want it to be handed to me. I want to work for it, and see what my hard work has achieved. The only government this is possible in is democracy. Hand-outs are the problem with this country, and are directly responsible for the Paris Hiltons, the Kim Kardashians, the... entire cast of Jersey Shore. Think about that for a second. Jersey Shore is full of just AWFUL people, just awful.

You're totally right, but these aren't public/government hand-outs... all of these are private.... Paris is the heiress of the Hilton fortune (and probably company as scary as that is....).... The Kardashians are rich girls that got E! to think they were a sellable brand (obviously true).... and the Jersey Shore kids were the same with Viacom..... it's disgusting but it's what this country is... it's what the main stream media is.... I'm hopeful for the new media revolution to kick in and start to slay this dragon that is the main-stream media elite, but it's going to take decades (I think) for this to happen

I can't honestly say I know what needs to be done... I'm no economist, just a philosopher.... but I do know that the American condition has force the majority of our country into a corner that the majority seem content on being in.... ignorance may bliss, but their contentment in inferiority is rather aggravating 

I think I might perform a brain wipe, be stupid, and live off that philosophy of ignorance...  Seems... blissful.

[wsmb0233]

what ignorance is that?

[WKlingbeil1]

To all.

[wsmb0233]

Fumbleumble wrote...

Ruiner667 wrote...

Instead of the proposed bringing back the elevator, how about using the "key points" conversation system that Dragon Age has? So if you cross a certain point(usually a bridge) conversations between two of your companions start, works great in DA:O

Trigger points... yep, totally.... so much has simply been ripped out of the game instead of trying to actually fix it... just strikes me as being the lazy way to do things.....Maybe they spend all of the development money for the GAME on motiion capture and the ridiculous VO bill :<...

Oh and I just love in the credits where the likes of Jim Cummings (a truely awesome VO artist) ends up at the bottom of the bill along with Dwight Shultz, when the likes of Brandon Keener, Mark Meer and Yvonne Strahovski (who are these people ?!?!) gets an actual credit...wtf?????

Less 'Hollywood' and more game I think.

Well... Yvonne Strahovski was the face and voice of Miranda... so props to her, but yeah... very hollywood... and I'm sorry this post has gotten off its original topic.... I think this is just a testament to what a good job Bioware did in writing such a thoughtful game that it could get us to this.... 

but please explain these trigger points to me... never played DA:O... are they anything like the in-between-mission convos you have with (most of) your crew in mass2? 

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

wsmb0233 wrote...

Blue_dodo wrote...

uh why don't people get this little fact:

EA WAS THE PUBLISHER AND NOT THE DEVELOPER

these are two totally diffrent things

but because they were the publisher they get a good amount of say in what happens in the title, just like how microsoft initially distributed the game an xbox exclusive.... with no publisher there is no game, so what EA says goes... and it's clear in this game they said streamline

No. EA didn't say anything. Ray Muzyka is in charge of Bioware and all other RPG and MMO games within EA, as well as being a Senior Vice President at EA. When they bought Bioware, they agreed to leave the team alone to make the game the way they wanted to.

All this ''EA ruined Bioware'' crap is a total fairy tale. You don't like Mass Effect 2, blame the Devs, THEY MADE THE GAME THIS WAY.

I love it, btw.

[wsmb0233]

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

To all.

you think it's ignorant to believe that this government (by the people, for the people) hasn't failed us because we live with an economic disparity of 98:2? I think it's ignorant to believe anything else

[WKlingbeil1]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

wsmb0233 wrote...

Blue_dodo wrote...

uh why don't people get this little fact:

EA WAS THE PUBLISHER AND NOT THE DEVELOPER

these are two totally diffrent things

but because they were the publisher they get a good amount of say in what happens in the title, just like how microsoft initially distributed the game an xbox exclusive.... with no publisher there is no game, so what EA says goes... and it's clear in this game they said streamline

No. EA didn't say anything. Ray Muzyka is in charge of Bioware and all other RPG and MMO games within EA, as well as being a Senior Vice President at EA. When they bought Bioware, they agreed to leave the team alone to make the game the way they wanted to.

All this ''EA ruined Bioware'' crap is a total fairy tale. You don't like Mass Effect 2, blame the Devs, THEY MADE THE GAME THIS WAY.

I love it, btw.

Very true, had EA ruined it, they would've ruined it much worse.  I don't feel that it's ruined, I'm just frustrated at the shift towards FPS.  There are so few great RPGs out there, it's easy to make a good shooter.  But to make a game that requires more than primitive button mashing takes talent, and BioWare has that talent, obviously.  I just hope they focus more on an in-depth story and please, more side quests in ME3.  The side quests in ME2 were extremely insufficient, something I realized as I was typing this.  I love it too, I just need more depth, more story like in ME1.  I still don't like EA buying up all the good devs out there though, it's concerning to say the least.  When will they be considered a monopoly?

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

WKlingbeil1 wrote...


Very true, had EA ruined it, they would've ruined it much worse.  I don't feel that it's ruined, I'm just frustrated at the shift towards FPS.  There are so few great RPGs out there, it's easy to make a good shooter.  But to make a game that requires more than primitive button mashing takes talent, and BioWare has that talent, obviously.  I just hope they focus more on an in-depth story and please, more side quests in ME3.  The side quests in ME2 were extremely insufficient, something I realized as I was typing this.  I love it too, I just need more depth, more story like in ME1.  I still don't like EA buying up all the good devs out there though, it's concerning to say the least.  When will they be considered a monopoly?

Oh I don't know, as long as Activision is still the #1 publisher out there, I'd say never. When they bought Blizzard, they pretty much guaranteed their dominance over the market.

EA is doing great with games like The Sims and the ME franchise, but Activision has Modern Warfare 2.

Modifié par Spaghetti_Ninja, 30 janvier 2010 - 09:52 .

[WKlingbeil1]

wsmb0233 wrote...

WKlingbeil1 wrote...

To all.

you think it's ignorant to believe that this government (by the people, for the people) hasn't failed us because we live with an economic disparity of 98:2? I think it's ignorant to believe anything else

No, I'm saying I want to live in the ignorance of the masses, ignorant to anything going on politically, just be stupid, in essence.  F. Scott Fitzgerald does a good job of painting this picture in the Great Gatsby, pointing out that being stupid makes life much easier...  Hell, look at my previous point, how easy would it be to be as braindead as one of the idiotic individuals I named previously?  Paris Hilton?  She has no idea what's going on outside of her clothes, much less outside of her neighborhood.  It's a dream, haha.  And also, the government is not the only one that's failed, we've failed ourselves.  How did that 2% get to where it is?  They worked hard, and with a little luck, got to that point.  Bill Gates didn't just magically get his billions, he worked hard for it and caught a lucky break.  Also, your figure is incorrect, just because 2% is in the millions, doesn't mean 98% of us are dirt poor, I'm just fine where I'm at.  You know how I got there?  Working hard through school, and working hard at work, if you want it badly enough, you can find a way.  I don't care to be a millionaire, so I won't even work for it, so I'll never become one.  You can't blame the government for laziness, but you can blame them for bureaucracy.