338 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

HedStr8EyesTite wrote...

i think the system is fine... i think calling them thermal clips and saying the disperse the heat is stupid. it works like a clip of ammo, why not just keep it simple and call it ammo/bullets/whatever.

Because they tried to keep existing lore in regards to ammo in tact. Yeah, well all know functionally thermal clips serve as ammo, but semantically they don't break existing lore.

[WillieStyle]

sinosleep wrote...

Legion's loyalty quest. Using nothing but the shotgun even on things I should have switched for just for the sake of argument.

(part 1)
(part 2)

If you are running out of ammo, you are doing it wrong.

Not to be a jerk, but you pause aim on EVERY shot and you click all your abilities.
I happen to like the new ammo system, but if I didn't, your video wouldn't change my mind at all.  I'd rather not play the game at all than be forced to play that way.  Thankfully, I'm not forced to play that way.

[sinosleep]

WillieStyle wrote...

Not to be a jerk, but you pause aim on EVERY shot and you click all your abilities.
I happen to like the new ammo system, but if I didn't, your video wouldn't change my mind at all.  I'd rather not play the game at all than be forced to play that way.  Thankfully, I'm not forced to play that way.

I don't pause aim every shot hell I don't intentionally pause aim ANY shots and I can go through the vid shot for shot i you really want me to.  There are a few times where it looks like I'm pause aiming cause I was going to use an ability and then decided not to, for instance the combat droid towards the end. I was going to waste an overload on it and then change my mind and decided to just shoot it. I do however pause for every ability, but I don't see what's strange about that. There's an ability wheel in place that forces you to pause, why wouldn't I use it?

Most other shots are point blank slomo-charge shots so clearly there's no need to pause there or shots from cover.

p.s. IF you've read many of my past posts you'd know that I LOATHE pause aiming. It's one of the reasons why I never considered ME 1 to be a shooter in the first place, if the game lets you pause, aim, and then hit home every shot wheres the skill? I can't tell you how many times I've posted that line in these forums or the old ones so if theres one thing I most certainly DON'T do it's pause aim.

p.p.s As for forcing people to play that way, you can play whatever way you please, it's just I don't think playing in real time is the most efficient way to play ME 2. I enjoy real time shooters as much as the next guy, just last week I bought Uncharted 2 on Saturday and had already beat the game on the hardest difficulty available by Sunday afternoon. But ME 2 is a game where I feel using certain powers on certain enemies in certain areas takes precedence over playing in real time. Which is why I use the power wheel FOR POWERS. That and I'm just not very good when working with more 4 hot keys. I mouse click most everything in Dragon Age just like I mouse clicked most everying in WOW and will mouse click most everything in The Old Republic.

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 février 2010 - 04:27 .

[RyogaWanderer]

I'm not entirely sure what Biowares intention is with the new thermal clip system, but I'm not entirely sure I care WHAT the intention was. Here is what I get out out it;



We're almost 200 years into the future. in the first game (set what, 2 to 3 years before this one) the only concern of a soldier was overheating their gun, and this could be easily controlled through burst firing or for the well funded, through expensive mods. In a couple of years after the Geth invasion they decided that overheating was the worst concern and designed all weapons to use thermal clips, now we have no overheating, but running out of clips renders my weapon into a very futuristic club.



What military personnel in their right mind would do this? What moron went into a room and said "Having infinite shooting ability but waiting 2-3 seconds to cool off your weapon is too long! lets make weapons never have to cool off, but take at least a second to reload these heat clips at determinable numbers, and render the weapon unable to fire if you run out!" He'd be drummed out faster than you can say "stupid"



I play MMOs a lot, so in my head I'm doing math about DPS. Through smart shooting with the first game's technology I never have to worry about heat or ammo. For me, thermal clips would result in a lowered dps because you ALWAYS have to take into account the reload time. Overheating was not a guarantee.



Then of course we have certain character missions that involve ships marooned on a planet for DECADES. Where did they get these new thermal clip guns? They've been there longer than they've existed.



I play shooters, I do not have any problems with running out, or anything like that. Heck I had the head hunter achievement by the time I was done the prologue. It's just that the very idea of it drills down deep into my brain and makes it hurt to think about.



In their entirety thermal clips break lore and logic. They have ripped me out of the world and destroyed my suspension of disbelief. they actually render it difficult for me to enjoy the game. Why am I fighting to save a galaxy so utterly full of idiots?

[sinosleep]

Could it be that bioware has changed the lore to reflect that the average soldier doesn't have access to cool mods or spectre gear like Shepard does and as such they DO overheat all the time? That's why I keep saying you shouldn't try to use gameplay to justify the lore. Yeah, as Shepard it's easy to never overheat, bioware says that's not the case with Joe soldier and if looked at that way the thermal clips make sense.

[TheAngryHeretic]

I had a big problem with it, but then, I thought about something from Dragon Age Origins.  In Dragong Age Origins, and I would suspect most other fantasy RPG's, but your armor and weapons get damaged, and require repair before being used again, if a weapon reaches a point where it needs complete repair, you can not use it until you repair it.

This is similar to your weapons needing cool down clips.  When you run out of cool down clips, you can not use your weapon again until you find more clips, or in a fantasy RPG, have your weapon repaired by a blacksmith.

[Icematt12]

As a combatant, I would certainly feel safer using weapons with heat sinks than cooldown. It's a good system to me but just gives the impression of using ammo and reloading to the player with the UI used. Might have been clearer with some sort of heat bar that fills up that require a certain number of sinks to empty. A more player frustrating one is that you use a sink to reload but can only hold a max. of 5, discarding whatever is unused.



What is frustrating is that you cant use one gun but have full ammo for another. They use the same heat sinks so why cant I allocate 90% of them to my assault rifle. I also have gripes of the Normandy exploading in space. Big hole in ceiling = no oxygen, no oxygen = no explosion. Wouldn't be the first time in history of entertainment though if I am correct.

[Zhaocore]

I still dont see anyone answering this.

Heatsink clips are supposed to be universal, then how come i cant use my assault rifle heatsink to re-cool my sniper rifle heatsink?

Modifié par Silger, 01 février 2010 - 04:47 .

[RyogaWanderer]

sinosleep wrote...

Could it be that bioware has changed
the lore to reflect that the average soldier doesn't have access to
cool mods or spectre gear like Shepard does and as such they DO
overheat all the time? That's why I keep saying you shouldn't try to
use gameplay to justify the lore. Yeah, as Shepard it's easy to never
overheat, bioware says that's not the case with Joe soldier and if
looked at that way the thermal clips make sense.

Load up a new game of ME1. You are Joe Soldier. I did not have a problem with heat. I have a problem with a fancy futuristic club.

Icematt12 wrote...

As a combatant, I would certainly feel safer using weapons with heat sinks than cooldown. It's a good system to me but just gives the impression of using ammo and reloading to the player with the UI used. Might have been clearer with some sort of heat bar that fills up that require a certain number of sinks to empty. A more player frustrating one is that you use a sink to reload but can only hold a max. of 5, discarding whatever is unused.

What is frustrating is that you cant use one gun but have full ammo for another. They use the same heat sinks so why cant I allocate 90% of them to my assault rifle. I also have gripes of the Normandy exploading in space. Big hole in ceiling = no oxygen, no oxygen = no explosion. Wouldn't be the first time in history of entertainment though if I am correct.

Ask a soldier in real life which they would prefer. The gun that never runs out of bullets but will overheat if you go trigger happy, or the ones that work exactly like guns today. Heck if we want to get REALLY logical about it, I'd just carry a second gun if the cooldown was that long, and swap. And yes, explosions in space are (mostly) impossible, there's a whole TV trope about it at tvtropes.

Modifié par RyogaWanderer, 01 février 2010 - 04:54 .

[sinosleep]

RyogaWanderer wrote...

Load up a new game of ME1. You are Joe Soldier. I did not have a problem with heat. I have a problem with a fancy futuristic club.

Again using gameplay to justfiy lore. Bioware doesn't give a damn what you could do in the game, they care about what they wrote into the lore. THis isn't exactly a new phenomenon, it applies to basically every video game ever made that has any kind of lore system. There will always be things in game that a player can or can't do because of gameplay reasons that contradict the lore. It's just the way it is. So if Bioware says Joe Soldier overheated all the time, and these overheats took longer to cool off than what you saw in gameplay, and as such thermal clips were the better solution then you pretty much just have to deal with it.

[JKoopman]

sinosleep wrote...

Could it be that bioware has changed the lore to reflect that the average soldier doesn't have access to cool mods or spectre gear like Shepard does and as such they DO overheat all the time? That's why I keep saying you shouldn't try to use gameplay to justify the lore. Yeah, as Shepard it's easy to never overheat, bioware says that's not the case with Joe soldier and if looked at that way the thermal clips make sense.

The in-game codex clearly states that thermal clips are a Geth innovation that was adopted by the Council races after the attack on the Citadel. So, no. BioWare is not nor has ever said that the reason for thermal clips existing is because "Joe soldier" doesn't have access to uber sweet Spectre gear with cooldowns (which Shepard didn't even have access to until after Eden Prime when he became a Spectre, so that theory goes out the window anyway).

[Selvec_Darkon]

Stupid. Just another way to make the game feel like a Sci-Fi shooter, and less like an RPG. Honestly now Bioware, I know you want to attract new blood with this game, but your gonna drive away  your current fans and be left with a bastardized half-genre game that nither side likes if you don't watch it.

[JKoopman]

Icematt12 wrote...

I also have gripes of the Normandy exploading in space. Big hole in ceiling = no oxygen, no oxygen = no explosion. Wouldn't be the first time in history of entertainment though if I am correct.

The ship was filled with oxygen, so that's a source right there. There's the question of whether there was enough ogygen to create the enormous fireball seen in the opening act, but it's not correct to say that space = no explosions.

[Zhaocore]

Space + explosions = cinematic bliss, screw realism on that one >.>

[sinosleep]

JKoopman wrote...

The in-game codex clearly states that thermal clips are a Geth innovation that was adopted by the Council races after the attack on the Citadel. So, no. BioWare is not nor has ever said that the reason for thermal clips existing is because "Joe soldier" doesn't have access to uber sweet Spectre gear with cooldowns (which Shepard didn't even have access to until after Eden Prime when he became a Spectre, so that theory goes out the window anyway).

Here is the in game codex

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateued in performance but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combaat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most fireights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants WERE FORCED TO DILIBERATELY SHOOT SLOWER TO MANAGE WASTE HEAT, OR PAUSE AS THEIR WEAPONS VENTED.

To eliminate THIS INEFICIENCY, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic manufaturers were initially doubtul this would produce a net gain, a WELL-TRAINED SOLDIER CAN EJECT AND SWAP THERMAL CLIPS IN UNDER A SECOND.

What does that imply huh? Does that not quite clearly imply that unlike spectre geared Shepard who can spray and pray to his hearts content without ever over heating that a normal soldier had to slow down their rate fire or stop entirely while their weapons vented? Does that not quite clearly imply that swapping a thermal clip is SUBSTIANLLY faster in the lore than waiting for an overheat regardless of gameplay? Quit bringing what Shepard could or couldn't do in gameplay into the lore, they don't mesh very well and they never have.

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 février 2010 - 05:08 .

[JKoopman]

sinosleep wrote...

What does that imply huh? Does that not quite clearly imply that unlike spectre geared Shepard who can
spray and pray to his hearts content without ever over heating that a normal soldier had to slow down their rate fire or stop entirely while their weapons vented? Does that not quite clearly imply that swapping a thermal clip is SUBSTIANLLY faster in the lore than waiting for an overheat regardless of gameplay? Quit bringing what Shepard could or couldn't do in gameplay into the lore, they don't mesh very well and they never have.

And why's that? Because you say so? I don't care what the codex says is better. What my experience tells me is that the cooldown system was far superior, as weapons fired every bit as fast as they do with the new "improved" thermal clips and unlike now I never had to worry about running out of ammo completely and being forced to use my long-range sniper rifle as a melee-range club.

If BioWare wants me to believe that thermal clips are superior to passive cooldowns, then they need to show me that they're superior. They have not. On the contrary, I feel like I've been handicapped.

Modifié par JKoopman, 01 février 2010 - 05:19 .

[boardnfool86]

I love them, I havent read many posts on this topic, but I've seen numerous complaints, and I think thermal clips are so much better than overheating - I agree the 'lore' is a stretch - but actually makes sense with the sniper rifle, the sniper rifle's fire rate was so slow before.



Anyways, I like it, kudos BioWare

[RyogaWanderer]

sinosleep wrote...

RyogaWanderer wrote...

Load up a new game of ME1. You are Joe Soldier. I did not have a problem with heat. I have a problem with a fancy futuristic club.

Again using gameplay to justfiy lore. Bioware doesn't give a damn what you could do in the game, they care about what they wrote into the lore. THis isn't exactly a new phenomenon, it applies to basically every video game ever made that has any kind of lore system. There will always be things in game that a player can or can't do because of gameplay reasons that contradict the lore. It's just the way it is. So if Bioware says Joe Soldier overheated all the time, and these overheats took longer to cool off than what you saw in gameplay, and as such thermal clips were the better solution then you pretty much just have to deal with it.

Or I can bring logic into it and remind that a weapon that can fire infinatly is far more advisable to a weapon that can ever be rendered useless. Or, even more likely in a vast vast universe why would EVERYONE EVERYWHERE use the new guns. why not let me chose? I'm using lore to justify lore. Cannon in ME2 is the old weapon systems existed. Were they all like apps from my ipod, with a remote killcode to destroy them all?

It doesn't make sense. And that's why my suspension of disbelief is gone.

[sinosleep]

JKoopman wrote...

And why's that? Because you say so? I don't care what the codex says is better. What my experience tells me is that the cooldown system was far superior, as weapons fired every bit as fast as they do with the new "improved" thermal clips and unlike now I never had to worry about running out of ammo completely and being forced to use my long-range sniper rifle as a melee-range club.

If BioWare wants me to believe that thermal clips are superior to passive cooldowns, then they need to show me that they're superior. They have not. On the contrary, I feel like I've been handicapped.

Also, so have you officially abandoned your  "Joe soldier" theory?

Does the fact that I mentioned a spectre geared shepard sound like I abandoned it? You are arguing gamplay against lore, it's a futile enterprise. I mean **** while you are at it why don't you go ahead and tell every fantasy game whose lore is practically always that mages are few and far between and can oblitirate entire armies single handedly that they're doing it wrong when the gameplay reality winds up being that you encounter a million and one mages and have a hard time taking down a group of 10 badguys, much less an entire army.

If you don't care what the codex says then you may as well just stop caring about any lore in any game cause it's all the same. They ALL contradict each other sooner or later because a gameplay improvement or necessity will ALWAYS trump the lore. Get over it.

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 février 2010 - 05:22 .

[Lmaoboat]

I would preferred they just said nothing and pretended you always used thermal clips rather than attempt to convince us finite ammo works better.

[JKoopman]

sinosleep wrote...

JKoopman wrote...

And why's that? Because you say so? I don't care what the codex says is better. What my experience tells me is that the cooldown system was far superior, as weapons fired every bit as fast as they do with the new "improved" thermal clips and unlike now I never had to worry about running out of ammo completely and being forced to use my long-range sniper rifle as a melee-range club.

If BioWare wants me to believe that thermal clips are superior to passive cooldowns, then they need to show me that they're superior. They have not. On the contrary, I feel like I've been handicapped.

Also, so have you officially abandoned your  "Joe soldier" theory?

Does the fact that I mentioned a spectre geared shepard sound like I abandoned it?

No, but the fact that Spectre gear is never mentioned in the codex entry (and so making a distinction is purely a leap of logic with no real evidence to back it up) means that your "Joe Soldier" theory is just that: a theory, and not a fact for you to be shoving down anyone's throat as evidence of thermal clips' superiority. There's also the fact that weapons from non-Spectre manufacturers fired in the same way as Spectre-class gear throughout all of ME1, and it seems like there's more evidence against that idea than for whether or not you personsally accept gameplay as valid evidence... which I do as I see gameplay mechanics as an extension of lore rather than a system that operates in spite of it.

If BioWare hands me a butter knife and says it's a sword, it doesn't make it a sword. To borrow a phrase, that dog don't hunt.

And since you seem to be the only person in this entire thread defending the thermal clip system, doesn't it make more sense to say that if 50 people hate it and 1 person loves it that the system is flawed rather than to say that if 1 person loves it even though 50 other people hate it that the system is fine and they just need to "learn 2 play"? Your opinion seems to be very much in the minority around here.

[sinosleep]

JKoopman wrote...

No, but the fact that Spectre gear is never mentioned in the codex entry (and so making a distinction is purely a leap of logic with no real evidence to back it up) means that your "Joe Soldier" theory is just that: a theory, and not a fact for you to be shoving down anyone's throat as evidence of thermal clips' superiority. There's also the fact that weapons from non-Spectre manufacturers fired in the same way as Spectre-class gear throughout all of ME1, and it seems like there's more evidence against that idea than for whether or not you personsally accept gameplay as valid evidence... which I do as I see gameplay mechanics as an extension of lore rather than a system that operates in spite of it.

Are you purposely being dense? High end gear could fire forever and not run into overheating issues. Clearly, the codex says overheating was an issue. The two can not both apply now can they? If Joe Soldier had access to weapons that never overheat, than he wouldn't have to slow down his rate of fire or wait on heat to vent now would he? Use a little common sense. It's not a leap of logic when it's quite CLEARLY implied.

And since you seem to be the only person in this entire thread defending the thermal clip system, doesn't it make more sense to say that if 50 people hate it and 1 person loves it that the system is flawed rather than to say that if 1 person loves it even though 50 other people hate it that the system is fine and they just need to "learn 2 play"? Your opinion seems to be very much in the minority around here.

Wow, talk about someone who doesn't understand forum dynamics. Forums usually run counter to reality. Fact of the matter is people are more likely to go to a forum to complain about something than they are to praise it. It's just the way it is. It's the reason why on comic book forums New Avengers is regularly the most hated on comic even though it's gotten great reviews and has been the top selling comic consistently for FIVE years running selling 100k a month in an industry where 50k a month is healthy. It's the reason why when you go to a rap forum everyone hates Jay Z while going on about clowns that have been stuck underground or the last 10 years. I could go on and on and on about the just about any subject where when you step into a forum it's as if you've entered the twilight zone, up is down, the sky is green and grass is blue, etc, etc etc. Go to the warcraft forums and even though it's incomparably more successful than any mmo before or after it's release 90% of posts are complaints.

Not only that, but the sample size here is so absurdly small that it makes it even worse. There are what, 40 regular posters here? I mean seriously, click on every page on the front thread and tell me you don't consistently see the same names crop up over and over and over again. What you see on these, and practically all forums is an obscenely small but quite loud minority.

Opinions here mean practically nothing.

Modifié par sinosleep, 01 février 2010 - 05:50 .

[AudioJane]

What makes me chuckle is all the people saying ammo has made the game soo much better, tactical. It's like Rainbow six Vegas baby, spare me it didn't make the game harder at all or tactical. What made combat better in Mass effect 2 was level design, streamlining ability's and making biotics more balanced with enemy's. If anything all Bioware did was annoy everyone with low mag ammo count weapons and having to look at the damn floor so much.

Also not to mention the complete lack of a verity of weapons and mag sizes to begin with.

Modifié par AudioJane, 01 février 2010 - 05:59 .

[AudioJane]

Modifié par AudioJane, 01 février 2010 - 05:57 .

[CRISIS1717]

I dont have a problem with thermal clips in-game, but I can't really understand the explanation they give in the codex. In ME1 overheating could be overcome by using controlled bursts, mods or using advanced infinite weaponry like Spectre gear which overheat much less.



An increase in rate of fire with finite ammo you can quickly change is not an advantage over a weapon with slower rate of fire and infinite ammo that overheats, except in the case of shotguns and sniper rifles which overheat every other shot. Like I said its fine in-game but for those players who look at every detail of ME its not unreasonable to be confused by the explanation.



A fitting explanation would have been in those 2 years advances were made in body armour, biotic amps and shielding. To counter these new developments weapons were developed that drew more power but had better armour/barrier/shield piercing capabilities. The problem would be the increase in power means more energy release causing the technology in guns to get destroyed a bit like the Normandy cooking if you dont release emissions. Hence disposable thermal clips which allow soldiers to benefit from the piercing advantage.

As for the distribution it could be explained by a rush for each races military to be armed with this new tech caused huge production in weapons companies, resulting in illegal sales of "surplus" by insiders and military frigates carrying these new weapons getting raided.